A Billion Quid For A Bj !

[Canada Bob]

Just heard about this on the telly, but thought I must have heard it wrong, it would be bad enough to pay any bonus at all to folks who managed to run a Bank {FFS} into the ground, but the b*stards are getting a BILLION quid {I thought at first they said a Million, but you can't believe your ears these days.

So a BILLION quid out of YOUR pocket for the "Bank Job" they've done !!!

They're taking the proverbial !!!

Hard to believe aint it, thousands of decent hard working folks are losing their jobs, with worse to come yet, much of it due to the behavior of these pricks, yet instead of being jailed they are awarded/rewarded with obscene amounts of money !!! Am I missing something here ?

Canada Bob.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Canada Bob

[CaleyD]

I was surprised to see the figure being so low to be honest. When I worked for RBS they were paying out (in total) far larger sums than the ?1 Billion mentioned. On a good year I could add add 30% (or more) to my salary in cash bonuses, incentives and shares.

It's a kinda two-tier bonus system they operate. You get part of your bonus paid based on your individual/departments performance and then there's bonus based on group profits. In many areas of the bank...I would even say the majority of areas...people will be hitting/exceeding targets so they will be contractually entitled to the performance related bonuses in relation to them as an individual or department. What they won't be entitled to, IMO, is any bonus based on group profits.....and it doesn't look like the bank intend paying anything in that regard.

You also have a situation whereby these bonuses are used as an incentive to get staff at the bottom of the ladder who are on pretty crappy salaries to work just a little harder. Screw people out of their bonus now and there's no incentive and you risk the whole place starting to totally implode on itself.

So yeah, when you look at it from the outside and take RBS as a single entity then it does seem rather perverse that they are paying out ?1 Billion in bonuses, but when you go beyond the surface and realise that most of the companies within the group are making money and performing ok then you realise there's people who do actually deserve to be getting something.

Provided those who are responsible for the bank being in the hole it's in aren't lining their pockets then I have no real issue with it, and from what the article says I don't believe they will be.

[Canada Bob]

I don't care if companies pay money out of their own pockets, but RBS was run into the ground by those who are now demanding a bonus for breaking the Bank ! how fekkin' useless or incompetent do you have to be to ruin a Bank, FFS...

The British taxpayers had to chip in 20 Billion to save what was left of RBS, odd how "Billion" rolls so easily off the lips these days, but 20 Billion quid is the equivalent of every man, woman and child in the UK stumping up over 3,000 quid each !

As far as sympathy for the poor soles on the bottom rung of the ladder at RBS, should we be giving them more consideration than the millions of other workers in the UK who are shouldering the burden ! Most folks could only dream of the benefit packages that RBS workers got. Times are getting hard, my bet is they'll get a good bit worse over the next few years, it'll soon be every man for himself, but if you come unstuck don't expect a whip round from anyone at RBS.

The bottom line is, the Government is putting the taxpayers of Britain into debt for the next 30 years or more.

The worst part of it is, I don't think the people who are responsilbe for what happened to RBS were useless or incompetent, the way I see it is they took massive gambles with other folks money, they lost the bet, sunk the bank, and now you all have to bail them out and throw your money after them as they row away into the sun.

Odd how the Government couldn't find money to sort out NHS waiting lists, or how NICE wouldn't approve a drug for folks in desperate need, {because NICE had to tow the Governments "affordability" line}.

Add to that they couln't find flak jackets, etc, for our lads in Iraq and Afghanistan, or the Governments failure pay a decent pension to OAP's so that they can enjoy their last few years in dignity rather than in poverty. Wha was it they found for the pensioners in the last round, a fiver for a single person and 7 quid for a couple, at a time when according to the Office of National Statistics groceries alone have gone up near 10% in the last year...

How many times have we heard that "the Government would like to do this, or that, but we simply don't have the money", when a few millions was all that was needed for a new school, fire station, or a CAT scanner for a local hospital.

Yet they can throw your money away like this...

Seems obscene to me that all of a sudden they can find BILLIONS to bale fekkin' Banks out !

It's fekkin' DIABOLICAL, if folks stand for this then there's something very wrong with them.

Canada Bob.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Canada Bob

[CaleyD]

They're not "finding billions" though.....the money the banks are getting won't involve the treasury writing them a cheque for ?20 Billion and telling them to get on with it, what the country (Bank of England) is doing is basically underwriting the commercial banks and (hopefully) providing them the breathing space to trade their way out of trouble.

Also, there's nothing anywhere that says the people who caused the problem are demanding any kind of bonus, in fact there's nothing that says anyone employed by RBS is demanding any kind of bonus. What the bank are doing is fulfilling their contractual obligation to pay people in areas of the bank which have performed what they are due. They simply cannot refuse to pay performance related pay to those who have earned it.

If I recall correctly when the rescue package was announced it was agreed on the basis that none of the banks directors would be able to pay themselves a bonus, so we're only talking about employees and even then it's only employees in areas of the bank that have performed. The ?1 Billion is about half what would normally be paid, so that's a fair chunk of the 100,000+ staff who won't be getting what they may have expected in previous years.

As for the RBS, or RBS staff having a whip round to help others.....they actually have a very well subscribed to scheme where staff can, and do, donate direct from salary. They have also been know to do their bit for others.

Here's a link to one of many cases where the bank have "had a whip round" - Clicky Clicky

I'm not trying to justify the bank having to be bailed out, nor am I excusing the actions of those who caused it. What I am saying is that it's not as black and white a picture as you might try to paint it and it's all too easy to get angry when you see a figure of ?100,000,000 (remember it's not a thousand million here in the UK) being banded around. When you break it down, it's less than ?1000 per employee....but it's a ?1000 that can make a big difference to a large chunk of them.

[Canada Bob]

They're not "finding billions" though.....the money the banks are getting won't involve the treasury writing them a cheque for ?20 Billion and telling them to get on with it, what the country (Bank of England) is doing is basically underwriting the commercial banks and (hopefully) providing them the breathing space to trade their way out of trouble.

If memory serves me right {and I think/know it does} when the shyte hit the fan at RBS and they were close to going to the wall, they made a share offering of 15 Billion quids worth of shares that no one in their right mind would buy.

At that point the Government "promised to buy up any unsold shares" that looks like a 15 Billion quid bail out to me, and you can guarantee a cheque was cut.

Since then the ante has been upped again to 20 Billion, someone {think Gordon} wrote a cheque for shares that no one else other than the Government {using tax payers money} would touch with a flag pole.

Also, there's nothing anywhere that says the people who caused the problem are demanding any kind of bonus, in fact there's nothing that says anyone employed by RBS is demanding any kind of bonus.

They don't need to "demand" they wrote their own beneficial contracts, simple as that, you don't need to demand when you have it in writing...

What the bank are doing is fulfilling their contractual obligation to pay people in areas of the bank which have performed what they are due. They simply cannot refuse to pay performance related pay to those who have earned it.

Yea but, No but, the ship sunk, how could anyone expect fulfillment of a contract when a company goes broke ? how do you think you'd go on ? who the bollocks do they think will stump up the money ?

If I recall correctly when the rescue package was announced it was agreed on the basis that none of the banks directors would be able to pay themselves a bonus, so we're only talking about employees and even then it's only employees in areas of the bank that have performed. The ?1 Billion is about half what would normally be paid, so that's a fair chunk of the 100,000+ staff who won't be getting what they may have expected in previous years.

How can anyone expect a bonus when the company has gorn bust ? I don't care if they are Directors or the bloke who swept the floor, if they can't find the money from the companies pockets then I don't want them looking in mine...

As for the RBS, or RBS staff having a whip round to help others.....they actually have a very well subscribed to scheme where staff can, and do, donate direct from salary. They have also been know to do their bit for others. Here's a link to one of many cases where the bank have "had a whip round" - Clicky Clicky

Well, lets' have a look at that then, in 2007 {the latest figures that I have}, RBS had a bad year, but still made a profit of 7.5 Billion, out of that they threw 4 Milion at Edinburgh University and the NHS. Let's look at the scale of that generous that {tax deductable} donation.

Put it this way, let's say I had 7,500 quid in my bank account and I gave less than 4 quid towards a Cat Scanner would I be reading about my "good will gesture" in the National Papers ?

The 4 Million that RBS gave was 1/2000th of the profit they made in 2007, a TAX DEDUCTABLE donation at that !

I'm not trying to justify the bank having to be bailed out, nor am I excusing the actions of those who caused it. What I am saying is that it's not as black and white a picture as you might try to paint it and it's all too easy to get angry when you see a figure of ?100,000,000 (remember it's not a thousand million here in the UK) being banded around. When you break it down, it's less than ?1000 per employee....but it's a ?1000 that can make a big difference to a large chunk of them.

Bare in mind that these Banks now screaming out for a lifeline from taxpayers, have for 50 years or more been finding ways for themselves and their wealthy clients to avoid paying tax in the UK, is there no end to the nerve these b*stards have ?

Read all about it...

As far as I'm concerned if you run a company into the ground then you shouldn't expect the taxpayers to compensate /reward you for it.

I wouldn't mind if during the good times these banks had paid their fair share of tax, but they all found ways to move their money to overseas branches to avoid paying tax, now they want the regular bloke to bail them out, no thanks, do the honourable thing, go down with the ship.

Canada Bob.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Canada Bob

[Guest birdog]

The thing that is really annoying me with the banks at the moment is that they have been ripping taxpayers off left right and centre with unfair bank charges then they have the brass neck to go to the very same people they have been exploiting over the years, people who are also on the bones of their erse due to the recession, to bail them out. Feck them, nationalise the banks.

[Guest TheFalcon]

This whole bonus argument is just what the Government needs. They need to keep this going as long as they can to ensure the public loses sight of one of the worst administrations in a long time, looks like we are well on the way to 1929.

How come Gordon let the banks get away with this for so long? remind me, was he doing before becoming the PM !

Brown says we don't reward failure, how does the man keep his face straight. I can only presume then that Gordon and his cronnies will be taking a pay cut for the gross incompetence we've witnessed in the last twelve months, rather than being found with their hands in the till time and again, taking expenses for houses etc they aren't living in.

It looks like the Bankers have us over a barrel, all we can do is hope they use plenty of KY while we take a good shafting.

I can't wait for an election to be called.

Edited February 9, 2009 by TheFalcon

[Johnboy]

It looks like the Bankers have us over a barrel, all we can do is hope they use plenty of KY while we take a good shafting.

[DAM]

This whole bonus argument is just what the Government needs. They need to keep this going as long as they can to ensure the public loses sight of one of the worst administrations in a long time, looks like we are well on the way to 1929.

How come Gordon let the banks get away with this for so long? remind me, was he doing before becoming the PM !

Brown says we don't reward failure, how does the man keep his face straight. I can only presume then that Gordon and his cronnies will be taking a pay cut for the gross incompetence we've witnessed in the last twelve months, rather than being found with their hands in the till time and again, taking expenses for houses etc they aren't living in.

It looks like the Bankers have us over a barrel, all we can do is hope they use plenty of KY while we take a good shafting.

I can't wait for an election to be called.

Even if an election was called tomorrow you would still have stupid b@stards trying to vote Labour back in.

[parman]

Even if an election was called tomorrow you would still have stupid b@stards trying to vote Labour back in.

There can't be many stupid b@stards would vote for Brown and his Darling chancellor again.... after what they've allowed the banks to get away with.

[Scarlet Pimple]

You have only heard the half of it.

The Government in the U>K> effectively has now bought 78% of the shares of the R.B.Scotland (recent announcement). This has been hiked by about 13%, as I recall, from the original amount anoinced as the Government's investment in this mighty crap house of a financial Institution. NATIONALISATION FOLKS, nothing more, nothing less. Like thee coal mines , now out of business, the railways , not payig their way, the fishing --gone probably for ever...

Today I witnessed on the BBC T.V. (oh yes we get the BBC now in Western Canada) the snivelling, grovelling, two high heid yins of this once honourable Scottish employer, for whom I worked for 19 years without ever getting paid a cent in overtime pay, prior to emigrating to Canada, trying to squirm out of thier faux-pas and openly admitting that they had made a huge mistake in buying the Dutch consortium which turned out to be a real house built on a foundation of sand--another crappy financial venture no doubt milked to death by the so called Executives who sit on Boards of Directors , drawing countless huge , obscene millions out of the Bank, and contribute nothing whatever in terms of valid and visionary financial advice.

So long as Tammy MacTavish comes in with the Martinis on the tray, with a white cloth draped professionally over his arm in deference to these self-serving, putrid, parasites, they contibute nothing whatsoever to the profitability or well-being of the staff or Scotland (oops , sorry, the British Isles --I say this in deference to the many thousands of persons now employed by the RBS in England ), or the taxpayer.

Their incompetence , GREED, and unbelievable contribution to the demise of this huge financial institution is unconscionable and an affront to every hard-working peasant in Britain.

I, as an ex employee of the Bank, who dared to come to Canada to seek pastures new was immediately viewed as tainted at the point of departure by the petty princes of this Bank and my account no longer attracted staff interest, no interest at all in fact, --saving them about ten cents a year --and within 3 years they had informed me that due to a rule that they had found going back to the year 1920 which stated that pensions must be reduced after a period of time to half of what they were paying me then my pension would immediately be reduced by half from 86 pounds a month to 43 pounds a month. For me that was the end so I told them that if they did , considering that they had forgotten to inform me at the time I first started receiving my pension, then I would report it all to the British Ombudsman for pension violation. They backed down because they knew, the barstewards, that if I won my case then ALL the pensioners would have to be paid millions of pounds in back pensions and they realised that it was not worth it. For them Principle meant nothing--they were so weak that they could not even enforce their own petty, self-serving, ancient , greedy , stupid rules.

Further, in solid support of what Bob is saying, the British Government, with about 40 BILLION pounds in reserve to pay future pensiosn to old folks , still refuses to annually upgrade pensions to ex-pats who choose to stay in an ex-Commonwealth country. However , if you stay in America, Germany, Spain, or the Bahamas you get an annual inflation raise every single year. This effectively means that there are pensioners in Canada today who are getting only five pounds per month because they have dared to live so long that their pensions have become worthless in terms of purchasing power. NOR DO WE IN CANADA get any other ALLOWANCE-SUCH AS THE HEATING ALLOWANCE. After this winter I could certainly do with it, believe me.

And I contributed my share of National Insurance premiums just as much as anyone else ever did, month after month, when I was employed in Britain. How about that for fairness?

So far , with the exchange rates dropping like a stone and with no inflation raises my miserable pensions from Britain have already deteriorated by 14 % MINIMUM in value.

For an insight into the greed and mean-spirited attitude of the Government go to www.canadianallianceofbritish pensioners.ca and read all about it. We have been fighting these conscience-less parasites for years. These politicians always find money to put into their own pockets or whenever they need it to buy votes and it is the same all over the world.

Sorry folks, Canada Bob is right. And I could not have put it better myself.

The RBS spent loads of money in bonuses (I know my sister also worked for them all her life) to their staff but their shares are now worth 12 pence --once over 6 pounds right?-- and the two Executives currently squirming in their seats on the BBC T.V. admitted that the bonuses paid to Executives had to be cut by 25%---oh, dear, what a terrible thing to ask them to do --make do with ten million pounds instead of 14 million -- what a farce the whole compensation thing is. This Bank HAD to get rid of the money somehow--their profits in past years were obscene and all that would have happened otherwise is that the Government would have pocketed immense amounts of tax.

Oh , my, I wonder why the Government did not crack down on them before now? Do you actually think there might be some collusion and back-handers involved----nooooooooooo, how could you EVER think of such a thing?

Don't ever think that there is not a stratification of the wealthy at the top who ALL know each other and if you are in it you are lucky but if not, then you pay lots of money in tax.

I have to go now folks I think I am going to be very sick--as a dog!

Scarlet Pissed-off Pimple

[Canada Bob]

Hello Rod...

You don't know the half of it, {at least about the fuel allowance, being paid to folks in Spain, Italy, Bulgaria etc, FFs} but the links below might fill you in, or do you in when you read them.

As the Bankers and other Parasites walk off into the sunshine, they'll be cheered to know they'll be able take the winter fuel allowance with them...

Walk into the sunshine with even more tax payers money

It's no just the Bankers that are at it either, check out this scum who up the bills while 31,600 pensioners suffer and die in the cold.

Stone cold hearts, or no heart at all ?

Move to Spain Rod...

They're taking the proverbial...

It's a bugger when we can't look after our own...

1 in 12 could die from the cold

In times like this we soon find out if Government is able to Govern, and although I'm more left wing than any Bevin Boy, it's plain to see that this lot aint up to the job. The only thing they've done so far is "throw money" at every problem that comes along, your money, not theirs...

What a joke that was on TV last night, the Pinstripped Puppets all singing the same tune ! is ANYONE taking this seriously, it's just an attemt by the Government to distance themselves from these b*stards.

Tell you what, stuff 10 Million into my bank account, plus a Knighthood or better still a Pierage, and I'll say "I'm sorry" too, every fekkin' day of the week, for the next 100 years for that sort of money, plus expenses of course...

How do they get away with this ?

Having said all that, the reason for me firing off in here is to fire a warning to folks in any kind of debt. If you can pay off what you owe do it now, because this low interest rate strategy will fail, and by the time the Governments run out of money the ones who are left holding it won't part with it this side of 15% or higher than that, so batten down the hatches, don't get sunk by the perfect storm that's yet to come.

Canada Bob.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Canada Bob

[CaleyD]

I don't disagree with anything that's been said about what the banks have done and how it makes the morally (as well as financially) bankrupt. The point I'm making is that if they refuse to pay the bonuses which are due (and I'm not talking about bonuses to those who are responsible for the mess) then it just compounds and adds to the shafting...and two wrongs don't make a right.

As for nationalisation....well the RBS is as good as nationalised now, and that's as it should be IMO. Ok, so we've shelled out ?20 Billion, but if the bank can get back to anything close to profits it had been making in previous years, as well as the crack down on overseas banking, then the country will have covered that in only a few years. So it's not a total loss, and it's perhaps a silver lining in what is otherwise a very black cloud.

Any company/industry which is so large that it's operation has a direct impact on the economy of any country should be nationalised. As has been said already, you just have to look at things such as transport industry to see how monumentally wrong it is to try and privatise them, especially when we end up shelling out just as much money in grants etc supporting them as we had been running the service in the first place. Buses, Trains and even some flights we pay for twice....once in tax for the grants given to them to operate the services and then again when we're charged a fare which goes straight into the pockets of the shareholders. Buses is the worst because I know for a fact that Stagecoach in Inverness (and I'm sure in the rest of the country) could run all buses empty all day and still turn a profit because they get a mileage grant for operating public services from the government. Wouldn't we all love to have a business that was guaranteed not to fail...or even lose money!!!

When it comes to pensioners, you'll get not argument from me that they get a very raw deal in this country and we should be ashamed of how they are treated.

Throwing ?20 Billion at RBS is one thing....at least they can expect a return on that, but it really does make me cringe when you see the mounting costs of things like the 2012 Olympics.....?9.3 Billion and climbing!!!....and never ever likely to recoup it's cost, let alone make any money for the country.

It's bloody scary when you start to look at just how much money we p!ss away on a regular basis....am off for a lie down now.

[Johnboy]

It's bloody scary when you start to look at just how much money we p!ss away on a regular basis....am off for a lie down now.

Good post CD.... Hard to argue with that although no doubt somebody will!!

Can see why you're in need of a lie down all the same

[Canada Bob]

I don't disagree with anything that's been said about what the banks have done and how it makes the morally (as well as financially) bankrupt. The point I'm making is that if they refuse to pay the bonuses which are due (and I'm not talking about bonuses to those who are responsible for the mess) then it just compounds and adds to the shafting...and two wrongs don't make a right.

What's all this nonesense about bonus's !!!

The Banks say they pay a bonus for "above average achievement" if that's the case then I want to know what percentage of RBS employee's didn't get a bonus, my belief is that they all {or near damn all} got a bonus, how the hell can they all, or even "most" of them be ABOVE AVERAGE !

Tell us what percentage of employee's didn't get a bonus, and then we'll be able to see that it was a legitimate or deserved reward.

Add to that what's all this b*llocks about "hitting targets" if the target is the size of a barn door you'd need talent to fekkin miss it... The targets were simply an excuse to dip their fingers into the bonus till.

As for nationalisation....well the RBS is as good as nationalised now, and that's as it should be IMO. Ok, so we've shelled out ?20 Billion, but if the bank can get back to anything close to profits it had been making in previous years, as well as the crack down on overseas banking, then the country will have covered that in only a few years. So it's not a total loss, and it's perhaps a silver lining in what is otherwise a very black cloud.

I've no appetite to nationalise a sinking ship, nor do I want any attachment to it as it sinks, so in this case talk about nationalisation is simply to split the camp of folks who are hissed off, it aint the issue at all...

Any company/industry which is so large that it's operation has a direct impact on the economy of any country should be nationalised.

As above Don, that is a completely seperate topic, played right now by those who don't want us looking at the real problem, that being a Government unable to Govern, that and Vultures picking the bones of the taxpayers clean...

When it comes to pensioners, you'll get not argument from me that they get a very raw deal in this country and we should be ashamed of how they are treated.

Bloody shameful that our old folks have to live in near poverty after a lifetime of contributing, one way or another, do you know there's more people 55-65 working in the UK now than the 15-25 or the 25-35 age group. I'm not saying that folks 25-35 are work shy, there just aint that many jobs around for them, and the older folks have that attitude of hanging on for dear life to the job they have.

Throwing ?20 Billion at RBS is one thing.at least they can expect a return on that,

Let's put it this way, IF we have to take a ?20 Billion gamble, I'd rather see my money on Man U to win the Premiership, I'd expect a return on that, but injecting more money into a dieing horse don't enthuse me...

but it really does make me cringe when you see the mounting costs of things like the 2012 Olympics.....?9.3 Billion and climbing!!!....and never ever likely to recoup it's cost, let alone make any money for the country. It's bloody scary when you start to look at just how much money we p!ss away on a regular basis....am off for a lie down now.

As I've said Don, the reason for bringing this up isn't to trade ideological punches, I sail alone in these left wing waters that I sail, flying no one's flag, but being a socialist I don't want to see working men being swallowed up in this fiasco.

My warning is, get rid of any debts that you have while the low interest iron is hot, once that strategy fails.

When the interest rate tide turns to 15% or more, anyone in debt will be lucky if they don't drown in it.

If/when the shyte hits your fan don't expect a Government bail out, there'll nae be 20 Billion quid thrown at you...

Canada Bob.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Canada Bob

[CaleyD]

I don't think the RBS is necessarily a sinking ship.....certainly not one that should be cut adrift. They've made some risky (stupid) decisions which have been compounded by the current economic climate, but there's still plenty of positives within the company to allow them to turn it around. It will take some tough decisions and there's a few areas where they will have to cut their losses and get rid, but even in good times that can, and does, happen.

I don't have the same access to the facts and figures as I did when I worked there, but I'd happily wager than a healthy majority of the different parts of the bank are making money....it's the few "High risk" areas which are funded by the profits from the rest that have caused the problems....Sub-Prime market, Hedge Fund investments, Acquisitions etc.

I joined the bank as a Senior Compliance Auditor but then moved into Change Management as a Senior Auditor and Project Manager. My work spanned just about every area of the bank (home and abroad) so I got a bit of a working knowledge of how everything fits together. We're not talking one company with one product/range of products, we're talking about a company that touches just about every single financial service product you can think of, be it banking, insurance, investment, pensions...we're talking about one of the worlds largest financial institutions (third largest last year, not sure where they sit at moment)....they are the worlds largest company based on assets held.

When you talk about RBS Group, that includes NatWest, Ulster Bank, Direct Line, Lombard, Tesco Personal Finance (and a host of other "branded" financial companies including many car manufacturers), Mint, Coutts, JamJar, One Account, Churchill, Privilege, Green Flag, Citizens (US), Melon Financial (US), Bank of China and Burma, WorldPay, Isle of Man Bank, EGG, Bibit, NiG...and a shed load more, not counting those they also have a major holding in. Send RBS to the wall and all that goes with them along with all the companies that they don't own but do business for them.

That, for me, is the reason they are worth saving and why we can't afford to take the "they fecked up, let them die" attitude. It also shows how widespread they are and how, with some sensible decisions, they are well placed and sufficiently diversified to sort themselves out.

I'm no fan of our government...or many of the alternatives to be honest, but I don't think they had any option but to step in here and bail out RBS. As I've said, the alternative would be far more damaging to this country.

[Canada Bob]

I don't think the RBS is necessarily a sinking ship.....

I wish I was laying 1/1 on Betfair against them surviving in a recognisable form.

certainly not one that should be cut adrift.

Bigger ships have sunk, if they blew it during what were the good times, then what confidence can you have that they'll sail through the storms yet to come ?

we're talking about one of the worlds largest financial institutions (third largest last year, not sure where they sit at moment)....they are the worlds largest company based on assets held.

According to this CNN site RBS were the 36th largest company in the world...

Down the snakes back, and gathering speed...

but bare in mind that when they were being "measured" they weren't exactly telling the truth about their assetts, assets that now are of such value that it'll cost you 3X more to buy a bag of crisps than a share in RBS.

When you talk about RBS Group, that includes NatWest, Ulster Bank, Direct Line, Lombard, Tesco Personal Finance (and a host of other "branded" financial companies including many car manufacturers), Mint, Coutts, JamJar, One Account, Churchill, Privilege, Green Flag, Citizens (US), Melon Financial (US), Bank of China and Burma, WorldPay, Isle of Man Bank, EGG, Bibit, NiG...and a shed load more, not counting those they also have a major holding in. Send RBS to the wall and all that goes with them along with all the companies that they don't own but do business for them.

I hope they weren't all expecting a bonus ?

That, for me, is the reason they are worth saving and why we can't afford to take the "they fecked up, let them die" attitude.

So where do you draw the line then, are we to breathe taxpayers money into every lame duck ?

It also shows how widespread they are and how, with some sensible decisions, they are well placed and sufficiently diversified to sort themselves out.

If I had to gamble my money on {ever getting a return to the taxpayers} I'd be looking for 500/1 against not the prospect of 1/500.

I'm no fan of our government...or many of the alternatives to be honest, but I don't think they had any option but to step in here and bail out RBS. As I've said, the alternative would be far more damaging to this country.

I'm no fan of any Party these days, but these events just go to prove that Gordons crew simply aren't up to it, anyone can "Govern" in the good times, gawd help us if Gordon stays at the helm...

I think these events could well be a watershed for political parties as we know them, I can see radical parties thriving on what's to come.

Edited February 11, 2009 by Canada Bob

[absent friend]

No doubt the above comments were levied on the bail-out of the Northern Rock, lame duck, good money after bad, etc.

They have now returned in excess of 50% of the Government money from their profits.

Now I accept that they have also the highest rate of repossessions but they also had the highest loan to value ratio of any lender, so the two tend to go together, in a down turn.

We require a healthy banking sector due to our lack of manufacturing and I think this is a wake up call for all bankers, get your house in order or else.

Would I nationalise? Maybe - but I would fear that this would be the opposite extreme from the situation that existed, everything in triplicate and wait in line for a week to get an interview! Financial life would grind to a halt.

Will the banks return to profit - of course! Due to that five lettered word G R E E D. When the recovery comes and it will, watch the profit makers at work, buying in at the bottom and enjoying the growth. The packet of crisp priced shares will then be valued at fillet steak, with trimmings, price, at an upmarket restaurant.

This is not a UK political situation we find ourselves in. Maybe Canada is sidestepping this problem but for us in Europe and the US, we have a common problem and it is not, I'm afraid, Mr Brown's fault, it is embracing countries regardless of their political persuasions. If only it was so easy to apportion blame. The disappointing thing for me, since we are now talking about the government, all the other parties know, after the event, what they would have done. Magic!

I could exclude Vince Cable from that BUT he is worse, in this time of trouble he was invited to help the government with his knowledge and REFUSED! He now sits on TV shows showing off his ability but like the rest - after the event. It is our money that pays him, our money going down the drain due to his lack of input and he can still sit with a smug look on his face!

.

[latviaman]

No doubt the above comments were levied on the bail-out of the Northern Rock, lame duck, good money after bad, etc.

They have now returned in excess of 50% of the Government money from their profits.

Now I accept that they have also the highest rate of repossessions but they also had the highest loan to value ratio of any lender, so the two tend to go together, in a down turn.

We require a healthy banking sector due to our lack of manufacturing and I think this is a wake up call for all bankers, get your house in order or else.

Would I nationalise? Maybe - but I would fear that this would be the opposite extreme from the situation that existed, everything in triplicate and wait in line for a week to get an interview! Financial life would grind to a halt.

Will the banks return to profit - of course! Due to that five lettered word G R E E D. When the recovery comes and it will, watch the profit makers at work, buying in at the bottom and enjoying the growth. The packet of crisp priced shares will then be valued at fillet steak, with trimmings, price, at an upmarket restaurant.

This is not a UK political situation we find ourselves in. Maybe Canada is sidestepping this problem but for us in Europe and the US, we have a common problem and it is not, I'm afraid, Mr Brown's fault, it is embracing countries regardless of their political persuasions. If only it was so easy to apportion blame. The disappointing thing for me, since we are now talking about the government, all the other parties know, after the event, what they would have done. Magic!

I could exclude Vince Cable from that BUT he is worse, in this time of trouble he was invited to help the government with his knowledge and REFUSED! He now sits on TV shows showing off his ability but like the rest - after the event. It is our money that pays him, our money going down the drain due to his lack of input and he can still sit with a smug look on his face!

.

My gripe about the banks is the exorbitant charges they impose, I have two small pensions paid into HSBC and when I withdraw them here in Latvia over a third is taken in charges. when I queried it, they said contact the ombudsman. they do what they like under the cover of reasonable charges.

I always thiought Vince cable was an honest broker, more than some in his party, but proved wrong yet again!!

[CaleyD]

I'm sure everyone has horror stories about bank charges.....and if you're with the RBS then I apologise.

My most recent one involved the Halifax. I had a card account with them which I rarely used and got a letter from them last year saying that since the balance was so low (pennies) and I didn't use the account they were closing it. No problem, I never used it and didn't need it. However, this week I got a letter from them saying that someone had twice tried to take a DD payment from the account and as a result I had incurred two ?35 charges and I should pay them immediately. Getting charges for an existing account is one thing....getting them for a closed account really is taking the p*ss

[Guest birdog]

I'm sure everyone has horror stories about bank charges.....and if you're with the RBS then I apologise.

My most recent one involved the Halifax. I had a card account with them which I rarely used and got a letter from them last year saying that since the balance was so low (pennies) and I didn't use the account they were closing it. No problem, I never used it and didn't need it. However, this week I got a letter from them saying that someone had twice tried to take a DD payment from the account and as a result I had incurred two ?35 charges and I should pay them immediately. Getting charges for an existing account is one thing....getting them for a closed account really is taking the p*ss

I hope you told them where to stick their charges.

[Canada Bob]

My gripe about the banks is the exorbitant charges they impose, I have two small pensions paid into HSBC and when I withdraw them here in Latvia over a third is taken in charges. when I queried it, they said contact the ombudsman. they do what they like under the cover of reasonable charges.

That's bloody diabolical, who is making the charge, HSBC ? or a Bank in Latvia ?

There has to be a way around that, can't you just keep an account in the Untidy Kingdom and then get your money via a hole in the wall ?

Canada Bob.

[latviaman]

My gripe about the banks is the exorbitant charges they impose, I have two small pensions paid into HSBC and when I withdraw them here in Latvia over a third is taken in charges. when I queried it, they said contact the ombudsman. they do what they like under the cover of reasonable charges.

That's bloody diabolical, who is making the charge, HSBC ? or a Bank in Latvia ?

There has to be a way around that, can't you just keep an account in the Untidy Kingdom and then get your money via a hole in the wall ?

Canada Bob.

Bob the HSBC make the charges I get the money from a hole in the wall in Latvia, The Latvian bank make no charges, my lady works for them and said all the chrges are initiated in UK thank goodness I have a job earning money here, when I withdraw from the hole in the wall no charge whatsoever

[Canada Bob]

In response to a couple of comments from Absent Friend, first of all I don't see this as a UK problem, so I can't blame Gordon for that, it's obvious that it's a global problem, but should Gordon be blamed for what's gone on it the UK.

I think that's obvious too, he's where he wanted to be, nay begged to be for years, buT even before he was the PM he was responsible for what was going on in Banking, anyone worth their salt would have seen this coming a mile off.

So in my book Gordon was either asleep at the switch, or he hoped that it would all go away, or wasn't up to the job.

Before anyone gets the idea that I think this is all down to "New Labour" that's not how I see it, even though I can't stand most of the b*stards due to being "Old Labour" myself, I doubt that ANY other party would have done much better, it isn't a matter of Left Wing vs Right wing, far as I'm concerned both ships are over crewed by gobshytes.

The blame lays more on us, we voted them in, one gobshyte after another, it came to the point where constituents had little if any say in who would represent {say} Wigan or Bolton, or maybe Inverness.

When the parties start parachuting their choice rather than your choice you're likely to get some ambitious b*stard who don't give a damn for the place he's supposed to represent, They are simply in it for what they can get for themselves, not what they can do for you. But folks have tolerated this for at least 30 years, voting {as they say in Wigan} for a "pig on a wall, long as it's wearing a red/Labour tie".

The result of this is, there's a stampede to join the Labour Party {et-al} by folks motivated by greed and selfish ambition, so it's our fault for either not caring or noticing what was going on.

Many of those who have slithered their way aboard the Westminster gravy train in the last 30-40 years are amongst the most arrogant imbeciles the nation has ever seen, it would be hard to assemble a bigger bunch of crooks.

Fair enough they aren't all bad, but if it was a bunch of grapes you were looking at rather than a bunch of MP's, Ministers, Lords and Knights of the Realm, you'd bin the fekkin lot, you certainly wouldn't be paying for them.

The root cause of the problem is us, we allowed this to happen, the blame is ours, but it's not just us...

The same thing has been going on in the US, how the b*llocks did folks vote in George Bush and then his clone !!!

It's hard to find a country where Democracy hasn't been hijacked by folks with their own agenda's {rather than yours}, or incompetent b*stards who can't get their heads deep enough into the trough of taxpayers money.

The thing is, when it's a calm sea that we're sailing through any old gobshyte at the helm will do, and when we look at the size of the ship we fool ourselves into believing "they must know what they are doing". Most of them do know what they're doing alright, thieving money hand over fist, for houses they don't actually need or use, or over 500 quid a day that the Lords claim in "expenses" alone !!!

Although it's a global problem if we had a competent leader we might have had another option rather than following all the other lemmings over the cliff. But all Gordon can come up with is, "it's not my fault, it's a global problem", yea but, no but , Gordon, FFS we are paying you the big money, you bust a gut to get the job, so steer us clear of the fekkin' rocks, {some chance hey}...

Canada may be fairing better than some, but I can't claim {nor would I dream of claiming} that our gobshytes are better than the global gobshytes. The Canadian economy is supported by the Canadian $ being a petro $, fair enough oil is in the bucket rather than the barrel at the moment, but Canada is finding more oil at a time when the North Sea is running out, so Canada will fair better than the UK in the long term, but by chance rather than political savvy.

What I think we should be looking at is, where do "we" think this is going, how long do you think these 1% interest rates will last, is it the way out of this recession/depression, or is it the final staggering steps before the leader of the lemmings takes us all over the cliffs ?

Edited February 12, 2009 by Canada Bob

[DAM]

In response to a couple of comments from Absent Friend, first of all I don't see this as a UK problem, so I can't blame Gordon for that, it's obvious that it's a global problem, but should Gordon be blamed for what's gone on it the UK.

I think that's obvious too, he's where he wanted to be, nay begged to be for years, buT even before he was the PM he was responsible for what was going on in Banking, anyone worth their salt would have seen this coming a mile off.

So in my book Gordon was either asleep at the switch, or he hoped that it would all go away, or wasn't up to the job.

Before anyone gets the idea that I think this is all down to "New Labour" that's not how I see it, even though I can't stand most of the b*stards due to being "Old Labour" myself, I doubt that ANY other party would have done much better, it isn't a matter of Left Wing vs Right wing, far as I'm concerned both ships are over crewed by gobshytes.

The blame lays more on us, we voted them in, one gobshyte after another, it came to the point where constituents had little if any say in who would represent {say} Wigan or Bolton, or maybe Inverness.

When the parties start parachuting their choice rather than your choice you're likely to get some ambitious b*stard who don't give a damn for the place he's supposed to represent, They are simply in it for what they can get for themselves, not what they can do for you. But folks have tolerated this for at least 30 years, voting {as they say in Wigan} for a "pig on a wall, long as it's wearing a red/Labour tie".

The result of this is, there's a stampede to join the Labour Party {et-al} by folks motivated by greed and selfish ambition, so it's our fault for either not caring or noticing what was going on.

Many of those who have slithered their way aboard the Westminster gravy train in the last 30-40 years are amongst the most arrogant imbeciles the nation has ever seen, it would be hard to assemble a bigger bunch of crooks.

Fair enough they aren't all bad, but if it was a bunch of grapes you were looking at rather than a bunch of MP's, Ministers, Lords and Knights of the Realm, you'd bin the fekkin lot, you certainly wouldn't be paying for them.

The root cause of the problem is us, we allowed this to happen, the blame is ours, but it's not just us...

The same thing has been going on in the US, how the b*llocks did folks vote in George Bush and then his clone !!!

It's hard to find a country where Democracy hasn't been hijacked by folks with their own agenda's {rather than yours}, or incompetent b*stards who can't get their heads deep enough into the trough of taxpayers money.

The thing is, when it's a calm sea that we're sailing through any old gobshyte at the helm will do, and when we look at the size of the ship we fool ourselves into believing "they must know what they are doing". Most of them do know what they're doing alright, thieving money hand over fist, for houses they don't actually need or use, or over 500 quid a day that the Lords claim in "expenses" alone !!!

Although it's a global problem if we had a competent leader we might have had another option rather than following all the other lemmings over the cliff. But all Gordon can come up with is, "it's not my fault, it's a global problem", yea but, no but , Gordon, FFS we are paying you the big money, you bust a gut to get the job, so steer us clear of the fekkin' rocks, {some chance hey}...

Canada may be fairing better than some, but I can't claim {nor would I dream of claiming} that our gobshytes are better than the global gobshytes. The Canadian economy is supported by the Canadian $ being a petro $, fair enough oil is in the bucket rather than the barrel at the moment, but Canada is finding more oil at a time when the North Sea is running out, so Canada will fair better than the UK in the long term, but by chance rather than political savvy.

What I think we should be looking at is, where do "we" think this is going, how long do you think these 1% interest rates will last, is it the way out of this recession/depression, or is it the final staggering steps before the leader of the lemmings takes us all over the cliffs ?

Good post Bob. This is exactly what has been happening for the last 30-40 years. You have put it more elloquently than I could ever have managed!