Gaelic Learners

[Northern_jaggie]

hi folks,

heres something for the Gaelic Learners from the course im taking down in Glasgow.

Sound files in Gaelic

Edited November 22, 2009 by Northern_jaggie

[SMEE]

Gaelic= a big :020: from me!

Edited November 22, 2009 by SMEE

[Guest]

A serious question, why bother? Almost all gaelic speakers also speak English, it will not really bring you any form of career advancement, unless you want to work for BBC Alba or the Highland council signage department. I honestly cannot think of any benefit to learning the language.

[The Mantis]

You forgot to include the link NJ ;)

[The Mantis]

A serious question, why bother? Almost all gaelic speakers also speak English, it will not really bring you any form of career advancement, unless you want to work for BBC Alba or the Highland council signage department. I honestly cannot think of any benefit to learning the language.

You could make the same argument against learning history or anything. Whatever happened to learning for it's own sake or just for interest? One of the things that distinguishes the kids I meet every day from the adults is the adults don't usually ask 'is this in the test?'

Edit: Even looking around Sneck, did you never wonder where place names came from, say Culcabock or Tomnahurich?

Edited November 22, 2009 by The Mantis

[SMEE]

A serious question, why bother? .......I honestly cannot think of any benefit to learning the language.

Well.....apart from the grossly over inflated wages you can pick, in jobs, conveiniently created by the self preservation society!

[Guest]

A serious question, why bother? Almost all gaelic speakers also speak English, it will not really bring you any form of career advancement, unless you want to work for BBC Alba or the Highland council signage department. I honestly cannot think of any benefit to learning the language.

You could make the same argument against learning history or anything. Whatever happened to learning for it's own sake or just for interest? One of the things that distinguishes the kids I meet every day from the adults is the adults don't usually ask 'is this in the test?'

Edit: Even looking around Sneck, did you never wonder where place names came from, say Culcabock or Tomnahurich?

I am not making any argument at all Mantis, asking a question yes, making an argument no. I have no interest in learning the language for the reasons I expressed but I do have an interest in why someone would want to learn. From my point of view there are more worthy subjects to learn. History is one, you cannot prevent the mistakes of the past reoccurring if you do not understand the past.

[The Mantis]

You no off to the game then Smee? I'm just off shortly.

Fer fex sake, the guy posts an innocent comment and he gets one sarcastic poster, or two, depending on how serious the other is..... sheesh.

[Guest]

I assure you Mantis, I am not trying to be awkward. Being in the job that I am I work with a lot of guys from the islands and even those, who are under the age of about forty admit that they are losing their grasp on the language due to under use. Many only ever used it talking to their parents or grandparents while they were kids. I am curious as to why a non native speaker would want to learn a language which even the younger generations of native speakers admit that they are losing.

[The Mantis]

From my point of view

Presactly ;)

Aye but carrying that on further you would end up compartmentalising learning into 'good' and 'bad' learning.

I would take a holistic view of learning, lifelong learning and all that stuff. Learning can't ever be a bad thing. In learning the language you would learn the culture as well, so if somebody offered me vouchers to a night class in Finnish or Maltese during the winter I would snap it up.

I thought my Higher Latin was shyte at the time but every day it throws up stuff that helps in English, and also French, Spanish, Italian, etc if I'm abroad. Same with Gaelic: go around Scotland (and other Celtic bits) with yer eyes open - Gaelic is everywhere.

Now we've covered all this in the past, I'm not hugely pro-Gaelic, so I'm not defending all the bilingual stuff that goes on, except in places like the Western Isles.

I just think there's a huge myth about all this Gaelic mafia and so on, every time somebody mentions Gaelic they get flamed, and I'll challenge Smee to prove any of that statement about "Well.....apart from the grossly over inflated wages you can pick, in jobs, conveiniently created by the self preservation society!"

[Guest]

From my point of view

Presactly ;)

Aye but carrying that on further you would end up compartmentalising learning into 'good' and 'bad' learning.

I would take a holistic view of learning, lifelong learning and all that stuff. Learning can't ever be a bad thing. In learning the language you would learn the culture as well, so if somebody offered me vouchers to a night class in Finnish or Maltese during the winter I would snap it up.

I thought my Higher Latin was shyte at the time but every day it throws up stuff that helps in English, and also French, Spanish, Italian, etc if I'm abroad. Same with Gaelic: go around Scotland (and other Celtic bits) with yer eyes open - Gaelic is everywhere.

Now we've covered all this in the past, I'm not hugely pro-Gaelic, so I'm not defending all the bilingual stuff that goes on, except in places like the Western Isles.

I just think there's a huge myth about all this Gaelic mafia and so on, every time somebody mentions Gaelic they get flamed, and I'll challenge Smee to prove any of that statement about "Well.....apart from the grossly over inflated wages you can pick, in jobs, conveiniently created by the self preservation society!"

Reading from your post there Mantis am I right in thinking that your angle to this conversation is to delve further into the whole "gaelic mafia" debate? The thing is the angle I am after is to try to understand the motivation for learning the language, you are right with the "presactly" statement, that is my point of view and everyone has a different point of view, I wanted to find out the OP's point of view so I could understand it a bit better. In my last post you will find the reasons for my curiosity. I will assure you again I am not out to create another "why gaelic is pointless thread" I can go post on one of the many others. Call it learning about people if you like.

To address your points about Latin, I also studied the subject at school but only to Standard grade (when I moved school from Kingussie to Inverness High there were no Latin teachers so I could not study further) I can see many ways in which latin would benefit a person, all the reasons you have given plus a lot of sciences are heavily based around the language, law relies very heavily on Latin so I cannot see the comparison between those languages being too valid in this instance.

[SMEE]

and I'll challenge Smee to prove any of that statement about "Well.....apart from the grossly over inflated wages you can pick, in jobs, conveiniently created by the self preservation society!"

Well....ok..al accept that challenge. Try not one but TWO translator positions created by Highland Council about 1-2 yrs ago, with a starting salary of (IIRC) about ?38 000 each. Now....why were these positions required when i am sure 100% of councilors speak english?

[Glebeict]

I guess it depends if you are Celtic , Saxon or Angle.

Having Celtic blood gives you an interest , at least for the meaning of personal names and place names etc.

Kind of hard to get the language back if everyone around you talks English.

But as I have stated before it is certainly interesting for tourists, that want to see that the Highlands are different

and that all the natives have not been assimilated.

[Johnboy]

I've encountered several tourists who have found the bi-lingual signs all around Inverness thoroughly confusing.

I have been asked often, are they there to assist anyone, and if so who?

I just can't answer that question.

Can anyone on here explain for who's benefit these costly signs were erected?

[The Mantis]

Obviously after the final I cannae be fecked arguing but yes, Birdy I accept your first paragraph that you are just curious and not mischief making. For your second paragraph I think you are still concentrating on the practical stuff and not appreciating what I'm saying about learning and culture. Like I said, you can say nobody speaks Gaelic in Sneck any longer but you can't ignore it's part of the whole fabric of the place. Even though it's full of incomers and not the same place I first came to before the bridge went up.

Smee, cannae argue if this is indeed the case (mind you I'm still sceptical). ?38000 is a lot of dosh even by professional standards. A graduate entrant to any profession gets nothing like that and here in Edinburgh I know a few folks running Gaelic playgroups and the like who are doing it almost as volunteers. I still think there's a lot of hearsay and rumours and suchlike and it's fashionable to run down things like this.

To put my cards on the table (again) my missus is a native speaker and I did a learner's O grade about 1988. It was actually very useful in Lewis back then. Never quite found the time or motivation to go on to Higher. So to Johnboy - I agree there seems little sense in the bilingual signs except in the Western Isles. The tourists there really get the impression of visiting somewhere special.

I suppose if you're happy with Gaelic dying out then you've also got to be happy with English/British customs dying out as we all turn into Americans

[Georgeios]

heres the thing, i wanted to learn it at school but found English itself hard and so had more English lessons, true, my little brother speaks it.. now... heres my thinking on it

My nephew came home at 5 years old with a letter to his mum and dad saying that POLISH!! was going to be taught to the kids.......

This had Ms Georgeios wilds and at that we have decided that Georgeios Jnr IS going to learn Gaelic, and my Miss's is from London so, if i had to chose what he spoke as a second tounge why not have it in his native tounge.. i havent read all this thread because everyone has there own opinion on it. some i think wrong but some i think right, this is just IMO and taking in to account the Polish getting tought.. then i'd have Gaelic over anyother forced apone classes.

[Arbroathawayday]

I think this thread makes me sadder than losing today. I give up on what's happening in the country I live in and love......Mantis speaks sense.

[SMEE]

Smee, cannae argue if this is indeed the case (mind you I'm still sceptical). ?38000 is a lot of dosh even by professional standards.

Bear in mind Mantis....this is the same council that pays its head of Social work ?105K per year.....and one of her understudies ?75K.

[martinskye]

O I do love some of the Gaidhlig debate :D

Anyway I'm fairly well palced in my understanding of the subject, I live within striking distance from the Sabhal mor (Gaidhlig university) where the Gaidhlig mafia (yes they do blooming well exist - sadly) are at full front battling for Gaidhlig this and Gaidhlig that.

Here in Skye anyway it's mainly incommers (surprisingly many English, Americans and even one guy who would die from gaidhlig from Inverness who didn't even learn the language until a few years ago) who try and push the language down any Tom, Dick and Harry's throat, which puts so many including myself off the language.

However those guys are just extremists who were actually fighting to turn a local primary school into an delivering an education through the gaidhlig medium. Their argument - Statistically pupils who are educated through Gaidhlig medium do better at school - this is true throughout the islands and Highlands.

Also without being fluent in the language I couldn't get away with this - Thalla agus rach thu fhein!

Careers in gaidhlig are well paid right enough especially if you get involved in the media and TV which isn't difficult to get involved in at all, funnily enough I play a part on some SQA revision materials as a gaidhlig alien!

I can't talk for Inverness but Skye's economy absolutely thrives on tourism and we really need things around to attract tourists as we certainly can't rely on people coming up looking for good weather.

Sure the scenery is the main attraction for tourists is undoubtedly the scenery but the gaidhlig culture certainly plays its part in boosing independentally run businesses - which are also positively affected by the residence of gaidhlig students.

The language is actually paving the way for some people in my year to enjoy a career they feel passionately about by studying at the university, thus will have more a more satisfying work life and better salary - much better than being unemployed!

As I said before maybe some people's opinions on Gaidhlig has been adversely affected by the aforementioned gaidhlig extremists who try and drown us in the language causing you to be pretty damn annoyed which I understand and probably detest more so than you because I'm in daily contact with those sort, however I bite my tongue and feel the benefits of the language outweight the harm it causes.

Edited November 22, 2009 by martinskye

[Alex MacLeod]

and I'll challenge Smee to prove any of that statement about "Well.....apart from the grossly over inflated wages you can pick, in jobs, conveiniently created by the self preservation society!"

Well....ok..al accept that challenge. Try not one but TWO translator positions created by Highland Council about 1-2 yrs ago, with a starting salary of (IIRC) about ?38 000 each. Now....why were these positions required when i am sure 100% of councilors speak english?

Like you say 100% of the councillors do indeed speak english. Some also speak other languages. I dont see you complain about the amount that is spent for Irdu, Chinese, Polish, Bulgarian or any other translators used by the authorities, police and courts.

If somebody wants to learn something thats up to them. Be it gaelic or golf there will always be someone who supports it and someone who's against it. I think golf courses are a waste of space but I wouldn't abuse the people who support them.

[Heilandee]

Like you say 100% of the councillors do indeed speak english. Some also speak other languages. I dont see you complain about the amount that is spent for Irdu, Chinese, Polish, Bulgarian or any other translators used by the authorities, police and courts.

If somebody wants to learn something thats up to them. Be it gaelic or golf there will always be someone who supports it and someone who's against it. I think golf courses are a waste of space but I wouldn't abuse the people who support them.

I'm sure there are plenty unhappy at the amount spent on foreign langauge translators,but that's a totally different argument and they are brought in th deal with folk who do not speak any English.I doubt their are any Gaels left that don't understand English.Nobody minds anyone wanting to learn Gaelic,golf or crochetting for beginners, but any funding should be proportianate to it's benifits unlike the disproportianate amounts getting thrown at what is painfully obviously to any and all a dying language in it's last throws,despite the romantic notions of a very small minority.Time to switch off the LSM I'm afraid

[Renegade]

Gaelic seems to be one of these things where should you disagree with their holier than thou view, you get called every insult under the sun. It seems to be one of those things where you should not go along with their view, that makes you some sort of bad person. They are essentially, flogging a dead horse. Gaelic is gone, it's as good as dead, and nothing, no amount of money that will be pumped into it, will save it. Whether that's from money pumped from the Gaelic loving SNP in Hollyrood, to make appartheid-like Gaelic schools, or to potenially dangerous and pointless road signs. Gaelic is gone, it's time to let it go.

[absent friend]

Of course you are all correct.

What does heritage matter, it is all to do with popularity and usage?

Never mind the Queen's English we could all use American English it's more used - we can all speak it and who cares if boring old tyre becomes new tire or whatever.

Out with Shakespeare in with the X Factor - more people watching X Factor, who cares about boring old Will.

Who now gives a f**t about art - more people interested in computers - close the galleries down.

I could go on but you get my drift - kill off if historic and used by the minority, appears to be the call.

They, the Gaelic speakers, are in the minority, so kill off their language, make them speak English because that is the language we speak.

So very sad how we view this from a larger centre of English speakers - we know best!

What is sort of funny is that we, up here, are seen from the centre of power, London, as a remote English Home County without the Chelsea Tractors and wealth and that this remoteness stops us from thinking for ourselves and we require people in the centre of this big population to know what is best for us.

Maybe just reward!!

.

[Johnboy]

Whether that's from money pumped from the Gaelic loving SNP in Hollyrood, to make appartheid-like Gaelic schools, or to potenially dangerous and pointless road signs.

That's something that has puzzled me for a while.

Do the SNP see their pro-gaelic stance as a useful vote winner in the Highlands?

[SMEE]

Gaelic now has 75% LESS speakers, than it did 100 yrs ago, despite a 20% rise in the population. If that isnt dying on its arse...what is?