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Rangers go into administration


KingBeastie

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The Pie&Bovril thread on the matter is the greatest display of schadenfreude I have ever seen

http://www.pieandbov...administration/

Anyway,I'm off to polish my grave dancing shoes.

Celebrate good times, come on...

EDIT: my own blog on the subject

Edited by hislopsoffsideagain
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While I am in broad agreement with what you say Charles .... I do have to continue to nitpick on a couple of points ....

You are going to a very large extreme in comparing my comment about lower policing costs being akin to wishing us back in the Highland League. I do not, and never have, wished us to be backward looking, and ICTFC being in the SPL and sustaining that for most of the last 8 years is, and continues to be a perpetual point of pride in my eyes.

However ... for whatever reason, and we see many different ones trotted out here every time we play the OF, the simple fact is that many people just dont go to these fixtures. We havent sold out a game against either half of them since 2008 and i would guess (yes, guess, as I dont have the numbers) that two games against Ross County if they were to come up to the SPL, would actually generate more net profit than recent (league) encounters against the OF.

I would also say your comments about Airdrie/Clydebank/Airdrie Utd, Dundee, Livi, and Gretna are somewhat of a smokescreen. Of all of these teams you mention, the only one to be sanctioned by the SPL was Gretna. they suffered a 10 point deduction and were relegated at the end of the season by virtue of being in 12th spot. What came after (demotion to D3) was an SFL decision not an SPL one. The same applies to Livi with their demotion and to Dundee with their 25 point penalty, as well as Airdrie-Clydebank Utd.

If we are going to compare things, lets compare apples to apples (i hesitate to use the other half of the term and say oranges to oranges for obvious reasons). If Rangers go into administration, the SPL has already set a couple of precedents .... In the case of Motherwell, Dundee and Livingston, all of whom entered administration whilst members of the SPL, there was no action taken and it was not until two of them were relegated and became members of a different organisation, that punitive punishment was later added by the SFL. In the most recent case, Gretna, there was a 10 point SPL deduction and this is now the norm. What happened to them after that 10 point deductions is irrelevant as it was applied by a different organisation.

At this stage, it is my opinion that Rangers will be deducted 10 points but they cannot and will not be thrown out of the SPL. If they do not finish in last place, they will also not be relegated, and given that even with 10 points deducted they will still be 2nd, then relegation is not going to happen, and therefore demotion to the bottom division of a league they are not a member of will not happen either.

It will be interesting to see how the SPL handle it if it comes to winding up Rangers FC and then receive an application for FC Rangers or something similar to become a member of the SPL in their place ... There is currently no precedent for this as it has never happened in the SPL, but you can bet their last £ that the SPL will find a way to allow this within the rules, even if those rules have to be changed ...... As ICT fans, we really should not grumble or engage in hypocrisy at that either as we were also the beneficiaries of a couple of rule changes in the SPL that allowed us, and others who have and will come after us to get to the top flight.

Hope your chicken wasnt too burned .....

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I know little about company law but I expect Whyte knows a hell of a lot. And like Baldrick, he will have a cunning plan. Once the legal processes are through we will either have a debt free Rangers or a son of Rangers - it makes no difference. Son of Rangers might, for instance be simply called Rangers Football Club by dropping the Glasgow bit which is never used in any case. And this team will either steal an undeserved place in the SPL or will be placed in the SFL from where they will quickly move back to the SPL.

If they stay in the SPL nothing much will change. Their level of income will be considerably more than everyone other than Celtic and they will be the 2nd best side in the land and get stronger. If they sink into the SFL there will be some temporary interest in the jostling for 2nd spot but no other team will be able to exploit Rangers' temporary absence sufficiently nor will Celtic be harmed during Rangers brief absence to allow the balance of power to be changed in the longer term.

Whilst I am sure Rangers' will be scheming ways of staying in the SPL next season, I don't see it being more than a temporary blip for them if they don't. They will be looking at the long term future. Without going into administration or collapsing the company Rangers faced an uncertain future crippled by toxic debts and nobody is going to be prepared to throw away millions into Rangers just to pay someone else's tax debt. Without a cleansing they were never going to be able compete in Europe and were increasingly going to be second best to Celtic. Increasingly they would not be able to attract decent players and were at risk of being caught by the pack. But I am sure there are a lot of people willing to invest in a debt free son of Rangers and 3 or 4 years down the line at the latest we will be seeing sums of money being invested in players at Ibrox which have been unthinkable for the last few years.

There is no doubt that the old firm need each other within the Scottish system and I am sure that whilst publicly Celtic may be saying they can do without Rangers, behind the scenes they will be working to ensure the rivalry continues. Of course, the one thing which would scupper Rangers would be if Celtic buggered off and joined the English league, Unfortunately, I doubt the English would have them.

Edited by DoofersDad
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You make the assumption that if Rangers NewCo was denied entry direct to the SPL that they would automatically be granted entry to the SFL....as I said already, this is by no means guaranteed and it could be argued that the SFL would be less likely to accept them when they know that they will waltz through the leagues effectively making it a non competition for the rest of the teams for the periods involved.

What's more, would the SFL really want to bring all that comes with one or other of the OF upon themselves?

I suspect that in the now engrained short-sighted nature of Scottish Football the SFL would actually welcome all of the above in return for an extra few quid in their pockets for a season or two....and that is why Scottish Football is so screwed up.

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OK. just did a bit more reading .... the "punishment" is now clearly defined in the SPL rulebook .....

-10 points for each "insolvency event"

A6.8 Where a Club takes, suffers or is subject to an Insolvency Event that Club shall be deducted 10 points. Where the Insolvency Event occurs during the Season, the points deduction shall apply immediately. Where the Insolvency Event occurs during the Close Season the points deduction shall apply in respect of the immediately following Season, such that the Club starts that immediately following Season on minus 10points.

A6.9 Where an Insolvency Event or in the event that such Insolvency Event is part of an Insolvency Process that process, continues and/or is subsisting for more than one Season then, for each such Season, during the whole or part of which such Insolvency Event or Insolvency Process is continuing and/or subsisting, the Club concerned shall be deducted 10 points or, as the case may be, shall start each such Season on minus 10 points.

A6.10 In the event that a Club shall take, suffer or be subject to more than one Insolvency Event during any one Season and the immediately preceding Close Season, which, in the opinion of the Board, are not part of the same Insolvency Process, then that Club shall be deducted 10 points in respect of each such Insolvency Event or, as the case may be minus such number of points, as reflects the number of Insolvency Events which that Club takes, suffers or is subject to during that Season and the immediately preceding Close Season.

these articles on the STV website also outline what happens in administration, and how a "phoenix" club can still play in the SPL.

http://sport.stv.tv/...administration/

http://sport.stv.tv/...hoenix-company/

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You make the assumption that if Rangers NewCo was denied entry direct to the SPL that they would automatically be granted entry to the SFL....as I said already, this is by no means guaranteed and it could be argued that the SFL would be less likely to accept them when they know that they will waltz through the leagues effectively making it a non competition for the rest of the teams for the periods involved.

What's more, would the SFL really want to bring all that comes with one or other of the OF upon themselves?

I suspect that in the now engrained short-sighted nature of Scottish Football the SFL would actually welcome all of the above in return for an extra few quid in their pockets for a season or two....and that is why Scottish Football is so screwed up.

Yup. You've answered you're own question. Money talks and this is all about money. This is just a readjustment at the top and normal service will be resumed as soon as possible.

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You are going to a very large extreme in comparing my comment about lower policing costs being akin to wishing us back in the Highland League. I do not, and never have, wished us to be backward looking, and ICTFC being in the SPL and sustaining that for most of the last 8 years is, and continues to be a perpetual point of pride in my eyes.

No that's not quite what I mean. What I am actually doing is to use a reductio ad absurdum argument in that what I am saying is that IF you argue that crowds even of 6500 including 2500+ visiting support, as compared with the normal total of about 3500, are not really of any great value THEN extrapolating that argument backwards, you would have to come to the logical conclusion the few hundred of Highland League or early Third Division days is also as good a scenario as any. Clearly that is an untenable and unsupportable situation (the "absurdum" part) - and that being the case, the original proposition also falls.

Two further points. Firstly I wonder how the TV companies would react if there was no longer a Rangers in the SPL? For instance, how are the contracts worded? If there is an agreement for a company to have so many OF games or so many Saturday lunchtime Rangers away days, then presumably the company concerned would be entitled to rip up the contract fortwith should the SPL no longer be able to provide what the contract says.

Secondly, much as I believe that having Rangers in the SPL is an important part of Scottish football's financial clout, it would be the ultimate injustice if the SPL were to act in such a way as to create one rule for one club (or by implication, two were it ever to become necessary) and another for the rest. I don't think you can use, for instance, the precedent of disposing of the 10000 seat and 31st March rules when ICT won the First Division, because these relatively minor changes actually let the SPL out of an awkward hole it had dug for itself and allowed them to dispose of patently silly rules which they quite urgently needed rid of anyway.

To allow "Son of Rangers" straight back into the SPL would be far, far more fundamental and outrageously unjust and would effectively condone financial anarchy in the SPL.

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Son of Rangers is no more 'outrageously unjust' that Son of Airdrie. Couldn't pay their debts. Slightly changed their name. Bought the licence out (from Clydebank) and continued playing. Can't see much of a difference there. Why is it one rule for one club and another for the rest?

Indeed, if Rangers were treated like the rest of the SPL, instead of the one club (Gretna), they wouldn't even be docked any points.

As for, the SPL would be more exciting coz Celtic wouldn't spend so much. As their finances decrease, so would the rest. They still have 5 to 10x the crowds of everyone else for a start, plus a worldwide following. In the face of a broke Rangers, a broke Hearts and no-one else investing, Celtic would expect Championships every season - just like Rangers did when they were the only ones spending.

Scottish football has a bigger problem than Rangers going into administration. It needs root'n'branch work. A total redistribution of monies. I just can't see that happening.

Despite all these tax and law experts in green telling us what administration means, I don't think any has a clue as to the machinations of why this is happening. I don't think it's anywhere as simple as 'Rangers have no money and Whyte doesn't know what he's doing'. I suspect he knows exactly where the club will be in 2 years time or so. However, I've no idea. But I'm pretty sure it won't be a league much different from what it is now. Unfortunately.

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In order for reductio ad absurdum to be effective you must follow the argument being given to a ridiculous conclusion....not remove the prime objective* and create a whole different absurd scenario to counter the argument being presented.

*the prime objective in football being for a team to play at the highest level.

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A week or two ago I suggested that Rangers would choose there time to go into administration. They are being very clever in this. Clever in the timing and clever in the expected outcome.

There will not be a Son of Rangers club simply because Rangers will not die.

Rangers held of to see where they would be in the cup competitions, they held of to build a decent lead on those below them. They have decided they probably wont win the league. They now have a few months to get their house in order and their debts reduced.

I think Rangers believe that administration will put them in a position to compete in europe next season without having to pay all of their debt.

The administrators will negotiate deals to reduce the debt. Players may be sold off as may some assets like Murray park to bring in the additional funds needed to clear that reduced debt.

Come next season they will be out of debt and in a position to build again, with euro money to look forward to. Then they will either buy big and get into more debt or they will bring in people who will slowly build a new competitive team. And Whyte will walk away with his pockets filled.

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Eh? aye. I don't see any great threat in this, and with any luck it might hasten the flight south of their parnoid neighbours. What we are then left with is an SPL free to expand as required and a far more compeditive league where several sides have a realistic chance of doing well. The bile, bigotry and viciousness that the OF promotes is removed at a stroke. Yes, we might well lose the TV money (or some of it at least) and that might prompt a reorganisation so that all of our senior clubs live at their level and according to their means. We might have to rely on locally produced players. Small league? aye, but then we are a small country and we should be on a par with Belgium, Norway, Sweden etc. Bring it on I say.

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In order for reductio ad absurdum to be effective you must follow the argument being given to a ridiculous conclusion....not remove the prime objective* and create a whole different absurd scenario to counter the argument being presented.

*the prime objective in football being for a team to play at the highest level.

I would suggest that the conclusion of a return to the Highland League is ridiculous enough!

And I'm sure you'll come up with some means of reconciling your definition above of the prime objective in football with this apparent acquiescence on your part in deserting top level football! (The quote comes from the "Matchday experience" thread.)

Lower League Football and a Club to Support in the Future...or SPL Football for a couple of years and then nothing...I know which I prefer. And let's face it, we won't be the only ones forced into making that decision...some will have the balls to make the unpopular but correct decision and the rest will disappear into a financial black hole. Let's not be like sheep and follow them in!!!

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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You are right, your conclusion is ridiculous, but it does not qualify as Reductio Ad Absurdum because you did not follow Scotty's argument, you instead chose to twist that argument into something totally different. There is no direct correlation between accepting the risk of a reduced crowd size and the desire/acceptance of playing in a lower league than a club is capable of competing in.

As the rest of your post is unrelated to the topic of this thread and comes across as nothing more than a poor attempt at contextomy, then I'll do you a favour by letting it be and not drawing attention to it.

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ok, guys, pissing contest over (myself included).

Lets agree one thing ... the SPL have, in the past made some decisions that could possibly be called "absurd" ... and if they need to again, they probably will.

However, I tend to agree with the other posters who suggest this is all a matter of timing and strategy based on league position and cup status, and it will not come to a full closure or re-birth of the club. They (Rangers) will suffer nothing more than the now mandated 10 point penalty, and they will still finish second. They will pay off their creditors at a few pence in the pound, come out of administration before next season and still be eligible to play in Europe ......

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Some of the most wordy posts I have ever seen on this site - I didn't realise so many cared about them so much (TIC) ;-)

Agree though with above. Herr Whyte whatever many people think about him he knows what he is doing and although preferable not to be in this position this is their best way out.

Now's the time to look at who is buying up potential new website addresses ;-)

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I cant see Rangers going completely out of business and such, then trading under a new name (Rangers 2012). I dont think it will go that far. If that happens does it mean all the competitions they won belong to Rangers 1873 and the new compay starts on zero?

I'm no admin or business whizz. But I believe the holding company who currently owns the club would be the ones who'd take on the debt if it went as far to rangers winding up. A new holding company would thus be formed and take over Rangers without that debt and a restructured business model, thus still same company with different holding company and same owner. I've tried to read the BBC Q&A but there is a lot in there.

I dont want to see any team go belly up. No fans deserve that. I dont think it would be good for Scottish football. Celtic would continue to dominate with occasional challenges from the other teams. The TV money is largely dependant on the Old Firm. Lets be frank. Sky couldnt give a care in the world for the rest of Scottish football. The Old Firm derby is their money maker in Scotland.

The BBC might take it one but the money would be vastly reduced. Sponsors might be less than keen if Scottish football becomes less of a global market. There are a lot of worries.

How would Inverness fair without tier 1 games, with full houses against an old firm team twice a year? Every chairman loves counting the coins when the old firm come to town. ICT is no different. It would be a blow to us, and to us operating on a SPL budget. (Which we barely do now).

I dont want to see rangers go bust and I hope Hearts can fix their mess too. Scottish football needs it's older bigger clubs.

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What a bizarre post, you don't want to see any club go belly up and you believe that Scottish football needs it's older clubs????

I suggest you take a look at our own doorstep as the formation of ICT was the result of two clubs going belly up and ceasing to exist

I do agree however that there will be some legal loop hole unearthed that will allow the Orcs to carry on in the SPL without a name change or at the very least a Rangers 2012

I personally would like them thrown out of the SPL and them made to start again in the Third division providing the SFL would accept them in the first place

Better still would be if they were liquidated and this lead to Celtic going off to England

If County go up next season we will enjoy two capacity attendances at TCS something we wouldn't have had with the Orcs

We would generate more money from County and I can guarantee Sky would be televising a couple of highland derbies

Dougal

Edited by dougal
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At the brink one tends to suddenly face up to the financial gravity of the situation and the ultimate effect on all of Scottish Football.

If Rangers did go to the death their fans , wherever they may be in Scotland, have to find a team to support so the selected team will surely benfit and some may do so mightily . This is as true in Inverness as in Glasgow and I would wager that the majority of current rangers fans would have little difficulty in switching over to the local team, ICT.

Celtic would suffer financially--how could they do otherwise? If the effect of that was to cut them down to a lesser size then such a humbling excperience for them and their fans may not be the worst thing that could happen to either them or to Scottish football.

And, in general terms, my belief is that it would result in a breath of fresh air flowing through the Scottish game which must have beneficial results.

As for tradition, ultimately everything dies, unless we, the fans, are immortal. So, one tradition is replaced by another and we all move on. Change, like death, is inevitable. So live with it, adapt and flourish.

Unfortunatel,y Rangers demise has been brought on not by the natural decline of advancing age but because of the irresponsible financial transactions done by an owner(s) and Board who are probaby too big for their boots and too wealthy to care that much about the consequences in the final analysis.

But, taking on the HMRC is a very dangerous game because that institition is not known for their leniency, empathy, or the level of human kindness flowing through their veins being very high....more like it being akin to lower than a skunk's belly. If they let Rangers F C off the hook in any realistic way then you will at least once in your lifetime be privy to a miracle and the undeniable fact that money talks and influences them as well. However, I don't believe that will happen and Rangers could be facing the end of the road.

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It's at times like this you realise just how screwed up the world we live in really is.

Not one person here arguing that Rangers going to the wall would be a disaster for football or heritage reasons....it's all "let's forgive them for screwing the public purse out of 10's of millions because they bring a few quid through our door".

That's all a bit like saying drugs are bad but they should be kept because addicts need them, and you can deal it on my doorstep so long as I get a the odd wee pay off!!!

Maybe our economy might be just a little bit better and we'd be getting a few more bums on seats across the whole of the game if Rangers didn't think they were above the need to pay their dues and that money....together with the incomes it relates too....had been paid and spent where they were earned and not hived off into offshore accounts.

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Sung to the tune of teddy bears picnic

If you go down to ibrox today

You're sure of a big surprise

If you go down to ibrox today

You'll never believe you're eyes

Coz super ally has no cash

And soon no place to sing the sash

Today's the day the teddy bears have

Their pitch nicked

Dougal

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This too I suspect may become an aim of several other highly in debt clubs, Hearts, Kilmarnock and Aberdeen come to mind. Radio Scotland last night were suggesting the timing of Rangers demise critically important. They accept the 10 point penaty this season, league has gone now anyway. They (Administrators) clear the debts and club moves on, having sold their major assets, but because of their higher income levels due to the 5-10 times larger crowds they trawl all other spl clubs for their better players, and combined make a challenge to Celtic. It also allows them to compete in Europe, as they will then be financially sustainable without the debt. Celtic will also be effected as their supprters will lose interest and crowds will suffer effecting their income, and with such a ridiculously huge first team they will have to take a massive lose in selling to reduce their top heavy wage bill - think they must now have around 35 high earning first team pool. However, the HMRC debt at Rangers, they were saying may be much bigger than the £49m suggested. Rangers will be in the SPL next season, that is for sure, as unfortunately scottish football does need the income they help generate, Scotland is not like Italy where if I remember right, due to financial bungs etc Fiorentina, Napoli and Torino were relegated down the leagues by the Italian FA, as they had plenty other big teams to keep interest alive. Although it would be a breath of fresh air, an SPL without some of the poison, gate receipts, tv and advertising monies, I fear it would be the straw that broke the back of the camel, with several others having to follow the Rangers admin model.

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There's another reason they wont fall completely .... a "new" Rangers. ie. a new team taking over the registration of the other immediately becomes ineligible to play in Europe for three years ...

Whilst some leagues, and even UEFA accept transfer of ownership, name and such like, the membership of UEFA is not transferable and the team gets classed as a new member. Under club licensing rules, you have to be a member for 3 years before becoming eligible for European competition.

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