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'Such circumstances' being what? HE turned down a contract offer.

I'd no doubt think about this issue entirely differenyly if it was handled in the same manner in which Dennis Wyness left the last time. IE with the offer being retracted when the player had agreed to sign. THAT was a shocking way to treat a legend!

I can't see how him being offered a contract, regardless of how much of a cut in wage or whatever, can be deemed mis-treatment.

The mere fact he was offered an extention would suggest he was wanted in some capacity. unfortunately now that he's stated his intent in the press and on social media to not want to sign, he's burning as many bridges toward the club as the club may be towards him

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History repeating itself?

Then it was Wilson and Wyness, now its Munro and Tokely. Treating long standing players like this only turns the players and fans against you. Especially when you replace them with duds like Tom Aldred. Munro was our best player towards the end of his last season, Tokely finished this season strongly and won his starting place back on merit. 33 isn't over the hill for a centre half. David Weir was still playing for the Scottish Champions at 40. Poor managment imo.

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I can't see any similarities between munro and tokely's departures.

Munro was told weeks before the end of the season that no offer would be forthcoming.

Rossco has been offered a new deal and turned it down.

All season people have moaned about munro's departure. I fear another season forthcoming of non-supportive jibes and negativity in the fan base because of Rossco not staying on.

Time to move on...

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'Such circumstances' being what? HE turned down a contract offer.

I'd no doubt think about this issue entirely differenyly if it was handled in the same manner in which Dennis Wyness left the last time. IE with the offer being retracted when the player had agreed to sign. THAT was a shocking way to treat a legend!

I can't see how him being offered a contract, regardless of how much of a cut in wage or whatever, can be deemed mis-treatment.

The mere fact he was offered an extention would suggest he was wanted in some capacity. unfortunately now that he's stated his intent in the press and on social media to not want to sign, he's burning as many bridges toward the club as the club may be towards him

Oh don't be so naive you can structure an offer so it will be turned down, Tokely alluded to the fact this was what happened himself. If you were in a job for 16 years and your employer offered you a new contract with half your wage would you feel that was fair.

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People, long standing players eventually become too old to be competitive in the top division.

Yes Alex they do but handle it in the right fashion, tell him at end of last season let him now out gracefully, and replace him with someone better, are you convinced Butcher will replace him with better

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Naïve!? More like realistic.

These conspiracy theories wouldn't be doing the rounds had Munro not been released last season.

3 legends leave in 2 seasons and all of a sudden it's doom and gloom.

If Rossco was so concerned with money and his financial future, he would have taken the money move to Turkey 2 seasons ago.

We don't know if it was a standard pay that was offered, standard pay with performance based bonuses, or a wage that reflected the part he was perhaps going to play next year (eg mostly substitute). We'll never hear how much the offer was much the same as we'll probably never get a real story as to why RD and GM left. End of the day, he turned down whatever was on the table. There's no denying that, no matter the theory

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Naïve!? More like realistic.

These conspiracy theories wouldn't be doing the rounds had Munro not been released last season.

3 legends leave in 2 seasons and all of a sudden it's doom and gloom.

If Rossco was so concerned with money and his financial future, he would have taken the money move to Turkey 2 seasons ago.

We don't know if it was a standard pay that was offered, standard pay with performance based bonuses, or a wage that reflected the part he was perhaps going to play next year (eg mostly substitute). We'll never hear how much the offer was much the same as we'll probably never get a real story as to why RD and GM left. End of the day, he turned down whatever was on the table. There's no denying that, no matter the theory

There is a big difference in staying loyal and not going to Turkey than staying and for a lot less money than on previously, anyway no point in arguing about it you have bought the Butcher spin and will come out with excuses for him if he takes the team down. If he improves the team and keeps us up I will be delighted to be wrong and will happily eat humble pie. I am afraid my confidence in the man has gone.

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'Such circumstances' being what? HE turned down a contract offer.

I'd no doubt think about this issue entirely differenyly if it was handled in the same manner in which Dennis Wyness left the last time. IE with the offer being retracted when the player had agreed to sign. THAT was a shocking way to treat a legend!

I can't see how him being offered a contract, regardless of how much of a cut in wage or whatever, can be deemed mis-treatment.

The mere fact he was offered an extention would suggest he was wanted in some capacity. unfortunately now that he's stated his intent in the press and on social media to not want to sign, he's burning as many bridges toward the club as the club may be towards him

Oh don't be so naive you can structure an offer so it will be turned down, Tokely alluded to the fact this was what happened himself. If you were in a job for 16 years and your employer offered you a new contract with half your wage would you feel that was fair.

You are in no position to assume that Rossco was offered a salary cut of 50% or any cut for that matter !

He might have been holding out for more money for all you know.

I hope they can come to some agreement and Rossco stays at ICT. His spirit will be needed for sure to keep some Highland influence in the side.

Oh, just had a wee thought, Butcher has signed ONE scottish player in the time he's been here - shock eh!

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“He has served Inverness Caley Thistle very well.

But there obviously comes a time when people have to move on."

That to me sounds like Butcher wanted him gone.

It certainly does. Of course there comes a time when people have to move on, but if the manager believes that a player has reached that stage he should release the player and acknowledge the contribution the player has made to the club. This is particulary true in Roscoe's case because nobody has ever made a greater contribution to this club. To force the player to leave by offering a derisory deal and then telling him by text rather than a face to face meeting that there would be no better deal is both cowardly and shameful. He has chosen this route because he did not want the same hue and cry that releasing Munro created. His inability to man manage is demonstrated by yet another major misjudgement both of his assessment of a player and how to deal with the situation.

And if he had just released Tokely, there would have still been the same greeting, whining and breast-beating, wouldn't there.....and for the next season, undoubtedly a constant refrain of "we need Tokely" and "we should never have let Tokely go"......and the usual "Butcher must go" refrains.

Given nobody actually knows the offer made to Tokely, in the first place, bar it was all, despite his previous emphasis, before the Hibs game on not wanting just to be a squad player, really down to the money he was going to get...how does anybody know it was derisory anywhere but in Tokely's mind.....given the fact that a large chunk of footballers are well overpaid for what they do anyway. What he thinks was derisory, I, and many others may well consider being vastly overpaid for what they do.

OK, footballers have a limited timespan to make their money before they are more of a liability than of use and are chucked on the football scrapheap......but, excuse me, did we decide that was going to be their lifestyle choice.....or did they...and how much of their decision to embrace football as a career was more to do with the level of remuneration in the short term than the fact that they could play football and get paid for it? Given they know the job does have a limited timespan, would the sensible not be spending their time when not training, preparing for the day they know will come.....when nobody wants them because they are past it?

Is there any obligation on the part of clubs to pay people who train for a few hours a day and play once or twice a week for 90 minutes each time, to make sure they make enough money in that very limited useful timespan to enable them to retire in their mid-thirties and live off the interest on the money earned?

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gordieICT, the way I see it, there is no spin coming from Butcher. Butcher hasn't said a damn thing regarding Rossco yet so where on earth is the spin of which you speak. The only 'spin' on the Rossco story is coming from The Sun, Mrs Tokely's facebook page and the theories flying about these very forums as a result. And all from the same very people who have moaned about Munro's departure all season.

Call me a happy clapper, accuse me of falling into butchers so called trap or whatever the heck you like. The FACT of the matter is Rossco was offered a contract and he has refused it. There simply wouldnt be this discussion if Munro and Duncan hadn't been released last year, nor would there be this discussion had it been any other member of the squad.

I can;t wait to see what happens next year when Ross or Sutherland get released. But I bet it'll have some sort of 'butcher slaughters our team' conspiracy attached to it.

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Oh don't be so naive you can structure an offer so it will be turned down, Tokely alluded to the fact this was what happened himself. If you were in a job for 16 years and your employer offered you a new contract with half your wage would you feel that was fair.

Of course the difference is that after 16 years most people would be worth more to their employer whereas a footballer eventually obviously goes in the other direction, hard though that may be for them to accept. I really don't think Butcher would have offered anything if he didn't want to keep him but as he said his hands are tied i.e. an annual deficit of £250k or whatever that has to be plugged somehow. If he pays more to Tokely that probably means one less youngster he can take on (without knowing the actual numbers).

Not being in the UK anymore I can't comment on current form but certainly a couple of years ago both Tokely and Munro looked off the pace to me (when we got relegated), Munro's distribution was awful and it's not as though other SPL clubs were queuing up to hire them (compare eg Darren Dods) so life is hard but at the same time everyone is frothing at the mouth over Rangers, it's not realistic to criticise the club/management for making tough financial decisions.

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The "big" difference between Brewster and Butcher lies with their personalities and characters. Brewster was very reactive, often emotive and outspoken. He was aloof and often also opened his gob before he had thought through what he was saying. Butcher is charasmatic and likeable and very calm, assured and controlled. Butcher will not get immersed in any form of bickering. He will undoubtedly not discuss the Tokely matter any further and adhere to the official statements that have been made and will be made. That also projects the "blame" and the ownership of the decision on the club and Tokely. Butcher will innocently plead innocence. In many ways that is pretty feckin impressive from a business management perspective. The Tokely issue is also diverting people's attention from the dilemna of a host of players not signing up and a real "scamble" to get players in for the start of the season (again!!). If Butcher could add tactical prowess to his repetoire he would be one mighty manager and would also be heading towards legend status.

Munro did have a pretty poor season on his return to the SPL. Rosscoe has been struggling for years. Duncan was finished. If you want to go back then Wilson and Wyness were over their sell back dates.But the "threat" posed by Munro and Tokely lay off the field of play and related to their "influence" in the dressing room and with the support. From what I gather it was six of one and half a dozen of the other.

But there are some who are extolling the likes of Golobart, Williams and even Aldred. Golobart has potential but makes as many "mistakes" as Proctor. Williams is "raw" and will never get above League 2 status and Aldred was a big mistake. So no replacement was brought in for Munro - if there had been then the odds on are that Tokely would not have got a game last season. The mere fact that Rosscoe was one of the few who appeared to be fisrt on the starting X! and even Butcher stated that he would love a team of Tokelys must show that he was worth a shout again this season. The issues are the "timings" - to announce this on the eve of the final match was deplorable. As I have alluded to before at least Munro had an opportunity to say "goodbye". That must have been a real kick in the teeth after 16 years and playing regularly throughout the season. And initially Tokely referred to not getting a chance to prove himself. And I dont know the actual sums involved but if lets say Tade was offered more than Rosscoe - and lets face it these things are discussed - then Rosscoe must also have been angered. Probably the biggest problem for Tokely is that he didnt have an agent fighting his corner and the final decision may have rested on improved deals to try and keep Hayes, Tansey and Tade on board.

Well that is me finished with that and moving on to the new season. But, as Gringo junior, has mentioned Butcher has now placed himself in the open and the target for all the Internet snipers. Personally I am not going to reproach him in regard to Munro and Tokely becos it makes sense from a playing perspective. Butcher will now be judged on holding on to the likes of Gillet, getting on board a central defender and a scoring striker and - please gawd - altering his tactical approach and improving the standard of play.

Edited by IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER
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It is commendable that there are so many people falling over themselves to defend the club over Tokely's apparent departure but let's get a bit of a reality check here. Of course we do not know what Tokely has been offerred or exactly who has said what to who and how the communication has taken place, but let's just reflect on what we do know.

  • Ross Tokely has served this club better than any player in the club's history. He has a record number of appearances for the club having played and excelled in all four divisions. His contribution to the club is unlikely to be equalled. He deserves to be treated with respect.
  • As players age there comes a time when despite their best efforts they can no longer play at the level the manager requires. Regardless of what I and many others may think, it appears that the manager thinks Tokely has reached that stage.
  • Money is tight and a reduced offer may well be all that the club can afford even if the manager still thinks Tokely has a role in the side.
  • The fact that Tokely has seen fit to speak to the press about his position shows that he is not happy with the club. Regardless of the detail of what has actually happened, this is not the way he would have liked to leave the club.

This is how it should have happened.

  • Well before the end of the season, the manager calls a meeting with Tokely. He acknowledges his superb contribution and loyalty to the club but tells him that finances are tight and difficult choices have to be made.
  • The manager tells Tokely that he is trying to strengthen the team and that he would not expect Tokely to feature regularly in the following season. Consequently the best offer that can be made is significantly less than his current contract.
  • He tells Tokely that he will understand if, in the circumstances, Tokely was to turn down the offer but he really would like him to stay.
  • He also says that Tokely is much loved by the fans and if Tokely did not want to accept the offer that it would be good to have the position finalised by the end of the season so that an announcement can be made and the crowd can say "goodbye" to him and he to them.
  • Tokely considers the offer and is not happy. He goes back to the manager and argues his case that his loyalty and committment deserve more. The manager expresses his sympathy but says that this is the best offer he can make.
  • Tokely considers further and decides he can't accept it. He speaks with the manager and says that he is keen to play regularly and therefore reluctantly will have to turn down the offer.
  • A statement is prepared and the manager says what a fantastic player Tokely has been and Tokely says what a great club this is and what a great guy the manager is.
  • Tokely captains the side in the last home game of the season
  • He is subbed 5 minutes from the end and leaves the field through a guard of honour of his team mates and to a standing ovation.
  • After the game he does a lap of honour and the fans all bow down in homage.

Tokely is a legend. There surely can be no doubt that he has not been treated with the respect he deserves. And before I get pounced on, let me say that I do support the efforts of this club but the management of this will deserve more respect from me and from others if they behave with a little more dignity themselves.

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It is commendable that there are so many people falling over themselves to defend the club over Tokely's apparent departure but let's get a bit of a reality check here. Of course we do not know what Tokely has been offerred or exactly who has said what to who and how the communication has taken place, but let's just reflect on what we do know.

  • Ross Tokely has served this club better than any player in the club's history. He has a record number of appearances for the club having played and excelled in all four divisions. His contribution to the club is unlikely to be equalled. He deserves to be treated with respect.
  • As players age there comes a time when despite their best efforts they can no longer play at the level the manager requires. Regardless of what I and many others may think, it appears that the manager thinks Tokely has reached that stage.
  • Money is tight and a reduced offer may well be all that the club can afford even if the manager still thinks Tokely has a role in the side.
  • The fact that Tokely has seen fit to speak to the press about his position shows that he is not happy with the club. Regardless of the detail of what has actually happened, this is not the way he would have liked to leave the club.

This is how it should have happened.

  • Well before the end of the season, the manager calls a meeting with Tokely. He acknowledges his superb contribution and loyalty to the club but tells him that finances are tight and difficult choices have to be made.
  • The manager tells Tokely that he is trying to strengthen the team and that he would not expect Tokely to feature regularly in the following season. Consequently the best offer that can be made is significantly less than his current contract.
  • He tells Tokely that he will understand if, in the circumstances, Tokely was to turn down the offer but he really would like him to stay.
  • He also says that Tokely is much loved by the fans and if Tokely did not want to accept the offer that it would be good to have the position finalised by the end of the season so that an announcement can be made and the crowd can say "goodbye" to him and he to them.
  • Tokely considers the offer and is not happy. He goes back to the manager and argues his case that his loyalty and committment deserve more. The manager expresses his sympathy but says that this is the best offer he can make.
  • Tokely considers further and decides he can't accept it. He speaks with the manager and says that he is keen to play regularly and therefore reluctantly will have to turn down the offer.
  • A statement is prepared and the manager says what a fantastic player Tokely has been and Tokely says what a great club this is and what a great guy the manager is.
  • Tokely captains the side in the last home game of the season
  • He is subbed 5 minutes from the end and leaves the field through a guard of honour of his team mates and to a standing ovation.
  • After the game he does a lap of honour and the fans all bow down in homage.

Tokely is a legend. There surely can be no doubt that he has not been treated with the respect he deserves. And before I get pounced on, let me say that I do support the efforts of this club but the management of this will deserve more respect from me and from others if they behave with a little more dignity themselves.

I'm responding to this as if it isn't a p1ss-take, though I'm still not sure. (Can anyone explain to me how to divide a post into chunks to which to respond....I can't get it to work the way I can on other forums?)

Now I know I'm going to get absolute pelters here from everybody, but I had no real idea who Ross Tokely was before I got here, bar I vaguely remembered him putting a player out of the game for a large chunk of time, and I've never seen him play, unless he played Wick in the very few Cup Games I could attend and if he did I missed him completely. So I post from a position of no bias in either direction regarding his playing ability, his worth to the club or his legend status. I can only form my opinion from posts on here, and my own personal interpretation of decency, loyalty and legend.

On your first point, I'd like to say does longer always equal better? Can it not just as well mean good enough for a club who can't afford better? From what I have read on posts on here, his excelling has been intermittent since I arrived on this forum...but I do wonder, from time to time reading the eulogies..and having read here or elsewhere that he had been, despite living in Aberdeen, a Hearts fan, if he would have been so loyal to ICT if Hearts had come a-calling for him. Loyalty, in my book is sticking with a club even if a better club comes for you and your family is prepared to move. Fair enough, he didn't go to that Turkish side when he could have......but did he ever have any other real offers from bigger clubs in Scotland or England....and was his family keen to go to Turkey?

I agree with your second two points.

Re your fourth...I am afraid that, to me, he only appears to have loyalty to the club if it gives him what he thinks he deserves. If ICT fans want to bum up anybody as a legend and name a stand after him, they should have been doing it for Grant Munro, who took the club decision on the chin, and didn't whine, complain and gurn in the press, before or after to my knowledge. (though I'm sure there will be some here who will link to stuff I have missed).

The fact that Tokely didn't have the send off he thought he deserved was down to himself alone. Not ICT or Butcher. Imo, he thought that by putting pressure on the club, via the media, ahead of the cut-off date...in the knowledge the fans would rather have a geriatric defender as long as he had what they perceived as an ICT ethos, despite being an Aberdonian, supporting Hearts and playing for wages..... and would shout a lot...would perhaps get the offer increased. Can anyone tell me who, ahead of the last game of the season would have contacted the press but Tokely?

Re your bullet points 6-8....how do you know that was not the case? But, bear in mind, Tokely didn't go to the press until the day before the Hibs game, so it would appear he was still pushing the envelope at that stage and hoping for a change of mind on the part of ICT. He acknowledges himself on 1st June it was not difficult to turn down Caley Thistle's contract offer despite knowing he will never get to say a proper goodbye to supporters. So if it was Tokely's choice to try and improve the offer past the last game of the season, how come, when his efforts failed, it is, according to this forum, ICT's/Butcher's fault he didn't get a decent send-off?

Nope...imo, Tokely is not a legend, Tokely is a journeyman looking out for himself, as he has been doing for the last 16 years. As most footballers do, tbh.

There is no loyalty to ICT in going to the press three times, to my knowledge, to whine that a deal isn't good enough, then that he has refused the deal because it still isn't good enough and then later reiterates that just because it was a slow sports news day and the press needed a space filler. That smacks more of flagging up his position in the shop window...as in come and get me, I'm free!

Tokely didn't give a toss as to an appropriate send off, so why are fans obsessing about it? Loyalty was the reactions of Munro and Duncan. and, if it comes to that Golabek and McBain to being dumped....disappointment. acceptance..and getting on with life....not running to the press whining that they were hard done to and deserved better (as far as I know). If anyone needs to learn dignity,it is Tokely, imo..not ICT.

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Time for ODDQUINE to come in to steady the ship with hner common sense approach to doing business. :furtive:

Preferably the no-nonsense, doughty, courageous HMS Sneck which, like John Brown's body, lies a moudering in the grave.

Er.... does anyone on here know who this John brown was?

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