3rd or 1st

[IBM]

With a Rangers in the 3rd division, do you think the Record will devote just a paragraph or two to their match reports like they always have done for every other 3rd division team?

They should do!

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

Very good statement from Stenhousemuir tonight. http://sport.stv.tv/football/clubs/stenhousemuir/109526-in-full-stenhousemuir-outline-full-financial-impact-of-rangers-sfl-entry/

It is now time for supporters to step back and help get the season under way.

[Laurence]

On Sky today A poll of the old Rangers club , idicated over 80% of them were happy with a fresh start in Division 3

Surely that is all that matters. The genuine spectators have been hurt enough.

Let them support their new team in the SFL division 3 with safeguards that the books are properly audited and a fan club representitive attends all board meetings.

Which is how all clubs should operate anyway in my opinion.

No lightning striking twice should be the order of the day.

[Alex MacLeod]

Very good statement from Stenhousemuir tonight. http://sport.stv.tv/...gers-sfl-entry/

It is now time for supporters to step back and help get the season under way.

Sorry mate but I have to disagree there. Stenhousemuir have made a statement, in colloberation with Doncaster, Regan, Longmuir and Co, based on a totally worst case scenario, in an attempt to find a way of saving a dead club. There may be clauses in some contracts but there is no indication, as yet, that those clauses will be acted on. When the clauses were set up there was no indication of anything that has happened. We are in a situation that was never thought of. It could easily transpire that the TV media will see Celtic v Hearts, or any other club, as being the new OF type derby. It may well be that they see pulling out as losing customers. None of us know the true effect of no Rangers. Not even the people who run our game. Stenhousemuir have very strong links to the former Rangers and are expanding the spin in my opinion.

[bauhaus]

Lightning should not be allowed to strike twice, just ask Dundee fans, or Portsmouth etc.

Division THREE for the knuckle draggers. Saw a fans poll from the Scotsman online this morning. Asking fans where the Newco should play their football this season. Results were SPL 2%, SFL 1 only 2%, SFL 2 only 0.5%, and 32,000 plus had said DIV 3, says it all, listen to the fans SPL/SFL/SFA

[PaderbornCaley]

Very good statement from Stenhousemuir tonight. http://sport.stv.tv/...gers-sfl-entry/

It is now time for supporters to step back and help get the season under way.

Sorry mate but I have to disagree there. Stenhousemuir have made a statement, in colloberation with Doncaster, Regan, Longmuir and Co, based on a totally worst case scenario, in an attempt to find a way of saving a dead club. There may be clauses in some contracts but there is no indication, as yet, that those clauses will be acted on. When the clauses were set up there was no indication of anything that has happened. We are in a situation that was never thought of. It could easily transpire that the TV media will see Celtic v Hearts, or any other club, as being the new OF type derby. It may well be that they see pulling out as losing customers. None of us know the true effect of no Rangers. Not even the people who run our game. Stenhousemuir have very strong links to the former Rangers and are expanding the spin in my opinion.

I have to agree with Alex here. They are also stating a lot of assumptions as fact. The last paragraph effectively states that they want Newco in Division 1.

[+DoofersDad]

Very good statement from Stenhousemuir tonight. http://sport.stv.tv/...gers-sfl-entry/

It is now time for supporters to step back and help get the season under way.

It is certainly a very interesting statement both in what it says and what it doesn't say. It is well worth reading. There is a lot of information clearly set out about the way the TV deals would work out in various scenarios. Stenhousemuir conclude they will stand to lose £50k if Newco go into division 3 but significantly less than that if they go into division 1. Indeed they suggest they may actually be better off because this would involve a TV deal if Newco are in division 1 but not if they are in division 3.

That makes sense but what I find extraordinary is that the statement makes no reference to the increased revenue the club will get from playing Newco 4 times in the season in division 3. Their share of the receipts at Ibrox will be considerable and clearly the crowd for the 2 home games will be massively boosted due to the away support taking all their allocation plus a lot of local interest in the fixture. Some additional overheads will go with this but surely the net result of all this would more than compensate for the loss of £50k TV revenue.

I smell a rat. What will really threaten teams like Stenhousemuir is for the league structure to be opened up to create a pyramid structure as in England. This would be good for Scottish football as it has been in England because there are good junior sides who are, without doubt, better than many of the perenial under-achievers of the 3rd division. Perhaps the deal here is that if if Newco's bid for Division 1 is supported, there will be no radical overhaul of the Scottish game. After all, if Newco are in Division 1 this season, they are likely to be in the SPL next season - the OF will be reunited and the TV companies will be happy. And isn't that what is important here?

[CaleyD]

There seems to be a lot of talk about a vote to see which league they will go in to....but surely such a proposal can neither be made, not voted on until they first accept the application!!!

From what Green has said, they are applying to join the SFL, and have made no request to go straight into Div1....so who has put forward a proposal for them to go straight into Div 3?

The SFL are complaining that they have been handed the problem to deal with by the SPL....surely there is no problem unless they choose to give themselves one? Simple process....Do we accept the application? Yes/No - If Yes, then welcome to Div 3 as there is no process for a team to be submitted directly to any other division.

[Rasczak]

Very good statement from Stenhousemuir tonight. http://sport.stv.tv/...gers-sfl-entry/

It is now time for supporters to step back and help get the season under way.

Sorry mate but I have to disagree there. Stenhousemuir have made a statement, in colloberation with Doncaster, Regan, Longmuir and Co, based on a totally worst case scenario, in an attempt to find a way of saving a dead club.

I was thinking something similar, they have just regurgitated the speculation of Doncaster et al and claimed it as fact.

There may be clauses in some contracts but there is no indication, as yet, that those clauses will be acted on. When the clauses were set up there was no indication of anything that has happened. We are in a situation that was never thought of.

As I understand it, the clauses were put in place so that that the sponsors/TV could break the contract should the OF leave the SPL, to put minds at rest when they were talking about going to England or the "Atlantic League", in effect to stop them doing this. What we don't know is the exact wording of these clauses and how they could be interpreted.

If the wording is, "if Rangers or Celtic leave the SPL", then it could be argued that this means if they themselves take the decision to leave, ie resign from the league, then the clauses could be invoked. Rangers did not resign, they have lost their share as they are no longer eligible, so the argument is that the clauses could not be invoked.

On the other hand if it says, "if Rangers or Celtic are not in the SPL", this would mean the clauses could be invoked, however it leads to the thought that whoever wrote those contracts either didn't believe there was any way that either of the OF could go out of business or be relegated, or believed that if such a thing happened then the rules would be changed to make sure they stayed. That smacks to me of either incompetence or corruption.

It could easily transpire that the TV media will see Celtic v Hearts, or any other club, as being the new OF type derby. It may well be that they see pulling out as losing customers. None of us know the true effect of no Rangers. Not even the people who run our game.

Exactly, too many people are claiming as fact what is just supposition. I could easily claim that without Rangers in the SPL then it will be guaranteed to be more competitive, have more entertainment and so increase attendances 3 fold as, much as there was in the 80's when there were higher attendances, people won't be seeing the same boring procession to the title so actually improving clubs' bank balances. This may then have the TV companies and sponsors fighting each other to put money into the game as well

Now my instinct is that this is not implausible, though maybe a little exaggerated, but others have done that too, however I just don't know that this is the case much as I may like it to be,

Stenhousemuir have very strong links to the former Rangers and are expanding the spin in my opinion.

That I didn't know but it makes sense. Another interesting one is that according to the BBC http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18707522, "Cowdenbeath, whose chairman Donald Findlay QC is a former Rangers vice chairmain, said they would support Rangers' application to join the SFL, but only if the Ibrox club entered the Third Division."

[RiG]

That's a poor statement from Stenny who have swallowed the Doncaster tripe hook, line and sinker. Their fans are not happy it would seem.

As for the Daily Record, it's as good as a Rangers fanzine. They are going to be going all out to hype up the supposed disaster that will befell us all if "Rangers" are punted to the Third. A disgusting paper.

[Rasczak]

There seems to be a lot of talk about a vote to see which league they will go in to....but surely such a proposal can neither be made, not voted on until they first accept the application!!!

And that seems to be what is happening http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18727333

Longmuir explained that the first vote will be on whether the SFL can accomodate Rangers, with a simple majority required.

If that vote goes in favour of Rangers, Longmuir said it would be "supplemented by further resolutions that we would have to implement to change our rules".

From what Green has said, they are applying to join the SFL, and have made no request to go straight into Div1....so who has put forward a proposal for them to go straight into Div 3?

The SFL are complaining that they have been handed the problem to deal with by the SPL....surely there is no problem unless they choose to give themselves one? Simple process....Do we accept the application? Yes/No - If Yes, then welcome to Div 3 as there is no process for a team to be submitted directly to any other division.

Apparently there is according to the statement on the Clyde website http://www.clydefc.c...012/07/04/4137/

There were a few new things learned in the meeting, not least that the rules of the SFL would allow any club accepted into the SFL, by a simple majority, to be placed in any division. The rules do not state, nor imply, that they must join at the bottom tier, only custom and practice around good governance and integrity has seen teams join in the bottom tier

[RiG]

It's completely pathetic it is taking this long to resolve this issue. The simple fact is "Rangers" are a new team and there is nothing in the rules to allow them to go into the league any other way than to apply for membership of SFL3. Why are the authorities trying to break their own rules to pander to one of the Old Firm? I don't recall much of a fuss trying to get Gretna back into the SFL at any level when they went down the tubes.

Sorry for the double post but I can't edit that post nor delete it for some reason.

[+DoofersDad]

It might be reasonable to assume that in accepting Newco's application, the SFL will, at the same time, decide where they will place them. If, by that time, there is a vacancy in division 1 they may simply place them there and bow to the pressure of the SFA and the TV companies. It does not need Newco actually to apply for division 1.

Of course, a further complication is that if Newco are placed in division 3, who then fills the vacancy created by either Dundee or Dunfermline moving to the SPL and then who goes from Div 3 to 2? It is not as simple as saying that the teams which lost the play off finals move up, because who is to say that the team the promoted club beat in the first round of matches would not also have beaten the runners up. They really haven't got long to sort this out and without doubt, sticking Newco in the first devision is the easy option and is what the big players in this want to happen. I think it is far from certain that Newco will be in division 3 next season. More than ever, it needs supporters to pressure their clubs to ensure that a Newco placement into Division 1 does not happen but instead to have them placed in the bottom tier.

[Rasczak]

Of course, a further complication is that if Newco are placed in division 3, who then fills the vacancy created by either Dundee or Dunfermline moving to the SPL and then who goes from Div 3 to 2? It is not as simple as saying that the teams which lost the play off finals move up, because who is to say that the team the promoted club beat in the first round of matches would not also have beaten the runners up.

Precedent from when Livingston, and I think Gretna, were relegated to Division 3 is that the play-off runners up are promoted.

[+DoofersDad]

Thanks for the correction. Sounds a bit unfair but if that is the way it is then it at least removes an obstacle to Newco going into division 3.

[CaleyD]

There seems to be a lot of talk about a vote to see which league they will go in to....but surely such a proposal can neither be made, not voted on until they first accept the application!!!

And that seems to be what is happening http://www.bbc.co.uk...otball/18727333

Longmuir explained that the first vote will be on whether the SFL can accomodate Rangers, with a simple majority required.

If that vote goes in favour of Rangers, Longmuir said it would be "supplemented by further resolutions that we would have to implement to change our rules".

From what Green has said, they are applying to join the SFL, and have made no request to go straight into Div1....so who has put forward a proposal for them to go straight into Div 3?

The SFL are complaining that they have been handed the problem to deal with by the SPL....surely there is no problem unless they choose to give themselves one? Simple process....Do we accept the application? Yes/No - If Yes, then welcome to Div 3 as there is no process for a team to be submitted directly to any other division.

Apparently there is according to the statement on the Clyde website http://www.clydefc.c...012/07/04/4137/

There were a few new things learned in the meeting, not least that the rules of the SFL would allow any club accepted into the SFL, by a simple majority, to be placed in any division. The rules do not state, nor imply, that they must join at the bottom tier, only custom and practice around good governance and integrity has seen teams join in the bottom tier

Yup, but the questions still stands as to who is proposing entry to Div 1. I've not checked the SFL rules, but it normally requires X% of members/shareholders or the Board to put forward a proposal. I'm guessing it's not the clubs, which means it must be the Board....they are therefore the ones responsible for creating the "dilemma".

[CaleyD]

One other thing....does anyone else thing they changed the date of the vote to "Friday 13th" for dramatic effect?

[Rasczak]

Yup, but the questions still stands as to who is proposing entry to Div 1. I've not checked the SFL rules, but it normally requires X% of members/shareholders or the Board to put forward a proposal. I'm guessing it's not the clubs, which means it must be the Board....they are therefore the ones responsible for creating the "dilemma".

Can't disagree. Even though the rules *allow* the SFL, board or otherwise, to create the dilemma, they don't *force* them to do so. If they just follow the custom and practice then no problem.

[CaleyD]

Appears that the ultimate aim is (still) a move South - http://forum.rangersmedia.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=230432

[Scarlet Pimple]

Every dog has its day. And rangers F C has, fortunately or unfortunately, had its day too.

It has has run its course and these incredible happenings hves come about because something was very wrong with, or inside, this club.

Frankly speaking, if Rangers F. C, or the new substitute, fell completely off the radar screen then that would solve a lot of problems and would serve as a premium status notice to Scottish football as a whole that this kind of conduct is intolerable.

Degrading conduct and dishonesty should run its course and end up where Rangers has --in the gutter .

As for Craig Burley it seems clear he is worried about his employment first because why should he attempt to justify retention of the cheaters in a prominent posution in Scottish football? Now he is flailing around in an unseemly way, criticising players who ,being smart, can see the writing on the wall and also see no future with Newco Rangers at all. Unless there was something in it for him why would Craig Burley simly not play the neutral card instead of blurting out such statements. Who got to Craig from the upper echelons of Scottish football.? There is an old saying..." When you hear a man speak, consider his interests.".

Craig must be in a wholesale panic to have jumped into the cauldron like this.Or severely threatened or pushed?

Mr Burley STILL does not get it. This is NOT about money but, for once in this greedy, money-mad planet, a resounding shout for justice, honour and integrity. The average fan, who is essentailly the life blood of the game, is fed up with the SUITS and wants to get back to the basics of fairness and playing by the rules.

The suggestion that the beaks of the upper echelons either sack themselves or disband in some way is amusing because how can the Management all sack themselves at once? Who is going to settle the lawsuits for the sik suits and for them to voluntarily give up the golden feeding trough is unthinkable.

A pox on their houses but, being realistic, for them to resign enmasse would be a disaster and make Scottish Football the laughing stock of the world. Resigning en masse would be seen as their admisssion of failure and a perception that they were about to scuttle and desert the sinking ship. There would be no job for any of them anywhere else after that. The doors everywhere would slam shut with a reverberating clang. No one likes dirty laundry to be washed in public.

Newco to the 3rd division is a must and it should happen.The cries in the wilderness to let them stay in the 1st Divvy are cries of panic and despair. To hear them is one thing but to support them is another and the latter would be the worst thing for football in general that has ever happened in Scotland.

Oh My! Am I ever looking forward to a more equal SPL with even Celtic feeling the financial strain and other clubs actually getting a fairer chance to shine and maybe win the league. and THAT would be the best thing to happen to the SPL and this alone might spark a fan regeneration for the clubs.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

The 13th is significant. The Liquidators 28 day cooling off period is the 12th. There is a lot of speculation surrounding the asset ownership of the former Rangers plc. If Craig Whyte acquired the assets illegally with Ticketus money, he had no right to sell them for £2 if indeed he did. For all we know either Lloyds Bank, Ticketus or MIM may in law own the assets but the Liquidator may well take them under their wing. The SFL decision on 13th is then a no brainer. Spartans or Cove Rangers would then need to speed up their applications.

The message for supporters is get out and support the game in Scotland this season. The points made by Stenny which may be a regurgitation are likely to have been produced by external advisers and will have some credibility. Rangers have sucked £134m out of the game so the figures are likely to have some credibility.

The SPL needs a 12th player this season and the sooner that is resolved the better. Years back Ali McGraw of Morton talked of consolidation in the Scottish game - that is speeding up.

Rangers newco without assets, without a business plan, without resources, will not qualify for the SFL.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

The 12th is also a very significant date in history.

[Laurence]

I could say the money I paid in taxation whether income, or VAT, or on my fuel, contributed to Rangers being in a better position to defeat ICT and a whole host of other teams.

That really makes me cross.

I have just had a letter ( I have a small business) from the tax authority demanding several thousands pounds, not for last year but for the future years, on a guesstemate of my potential earnings.

I just wonder who knew about Rangers demise within the club, surely all the players , their accountants, the club auditors, the management, all got letters from the Revenue explaining their tax was outstanding. Were Rangers giving the players false documents( P60) about tax paid. I just wonder?

Edited July 6, 2012 by Laurence

[dougiedanger]

The 12th is also a very significant date in history.

In the bigots' calendar, yes.

[Alex MacLeod]

If the bigots knew their history they'd know that the Battle of the Boyne was a significant date and event in the history of Scotland. The Usurper King William of Orange against the deposed King James II of England and VII of Scotland. And typical as those people are they celebrate a battle on 12th July that actually took place the day before.