Royal Mail

[Laurence]

I get parcels delivered from Germany every other week and the postal cost is on a par with similar sized packages which I get from within the UK (North and South of the border). I see no reason why we should expect to see a rise in postage costs between Scotland and England should independence be achieved. We're not throwing up any walls/fences and border control and we're not talking about the implementation of any border control or customs services between the countries. Nothing to suggest any need for increased costs for whatever postage/parcel/courier services may be operating on either side of the border.

So yeah, I would say that suggestions to the contrary would fall into the category of scaremongering.

Where or why you get your mail from is a complete red herring

I am not scaremongering a term Emperor Salmond came up with when he cant answer questions.

Independence would exist long after Salmond has hung up his boots

I am only using present day Royal Mail policy.

Which is

For Example but it may help to knock some sense into your SNP patriotic head

Send a parcel 600 grms from Belfast to Dublin costs on a PPI contract £4.90

Send the same parcel to Londonderry would cost £2.05

In the event it would go through the 25mm gauge would only be £1.80

As I send at lest 30 to 60 parcels a week to other parts of the UK, I am looking at at least £100 a week loss

As I am a single trader senior citizen I could do without the agro.

If you want to follow the pipe dream of secession, fair enough, but find a good reason for it, not the dribble Salmond comes up with.

All I ever here from SNP politicians is a gripe against modern politics, I should point out they change with time. The voters can change governments every few years

Voting for separation means for ever, if you don’t like it there is no going back. Long after me you Salmond Cameron or anybody else alive to day , Scotland will be stuck with finding their own way.

Just like the Irish republic, Scotland will be asking for hand outs from Germany I suspect

I was talking to prominent MSP the other day he told me the EEC will ask any new applicants to join the Euro zone.

I once worked with a motor mechanic, his guiding advice was “if it aint broke don’t fix it “.

Incidentally I have posted thousands of parcels now in the 14 years I have been selling books I know what I am talking about. I resent being called a liar.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Laurence

[Laurence]

Laurence, if the thought of independence is so awful you could always move back to England. I'm English, I like it here and I'm staying.

I like it here too

I had a place in France once, very nice but it was not my homeland. UK / Great Britain is my homeland now.

Not England not Scotland but Great Britain.

I don't want to be in a foreign land

Neither do the 800,000 Scots living in England I suspect. They won,t even get a vote , making them foreigners.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Laurence

[Alex MacLeod]

Laurence, if the thought of independence is so awful you could always move back to England. I'm English, I like it here and I'm staying.

I like it here too

I had a place in France once, very nice but it was not my homeland. UK / Great Britain is my homeland now.

Not England not Scotland but Great Britain.

I don't want to be in a foreign land

Neither do the 800,000 Scots living in England I suspect. They won,t even get a vote , making them foreigners.

Perhaps they wont but all the english, polish, romanian and every other nationality resident in Scotland will.

[Laurence]

What's the point in carry on with these arguments

None of us are going to see eye to eye on this

So lets draw a line on this. All I say is think hard Indepence is permanent, voting at an election for a government can de reversed , whose to say that Jo Lamont wont beat Salmond to be first PM of Scotland. Politics is a funny business

When we are getting Jingoistic replies like the on above, it proves we are going nowhere.

I am out of the thread, say what you want I'm not coming back in.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Laurence

[+DoofersDad]

You ask what the point is of carrying on with the arguments and then proceed to carry on with the argument!

Why should the 800,000 scots or however many there may be living in England or anywhere else get a vote? Why should people who happen to have been born in Scotland and have chosen to live elsewhere get a vote? It is those of us who actually live in Scotland regardless of where we were born who should get the vote. Terry Butcher was born in Singapore so are you suggesting he should only be allowed to vote on matters affecting Singapore?

[CaleyD]

Laurence, you rant on about current Royal Mail policy....but in another breath state that Royal Mail will no longer exist...which argument is it that you want to make/follow?

Why is where or how I get my mail a complete Red Herring, yet your mailing practices are everything? I've just demonstrated that cross border mail does not have to be more expensive...and taken it a step further by showing that German mail (the rumoured suitors for Royal Mail) actually manage to provide a very cost effective service from beyond these shores....so the sooner they take over Royal Mail the better in that regard.

Businesses move location, change practices/charges/fees all the time to adapt to the climate in which they operate....as a business you also have those options, so if living North of the border were to become more expensive for you then you have the choice to move on to somewhere that better suits you and your business.

[Heilandee]

It's about time the government,regardless of independence or otherwise, introduced an internet shopping tax to bring in some parity with costs "real" business' have to incur.The dyeing highstreet and impossible trading conditions for independent retailers are tantamount to the damage home shopping/home delivery is doing to local business. Providers of home shopping services have no major overheads other than delivery and handling costs, making profit margins substantially higher than running shops and providing customer facing service.I understand the fears small enterprise like yourself have but you've had it good for a long time now, a tax on this type of business could generate funding to subsidise deliveries to remoter area's.

[bauhaus]

Also to use Belfast and Dublin may not be a good example, with all NI mail and parcels going across a troubled border with a history of parcel bombs and letter bombs not being the best to chose.

At the end of the day, the amount of business crossing the imaginary border between England and Scotland will continue to be high. Cant think why businesses on either side of the border will stop trading with each other.

Does make you wonder why London want to hold on to us so much if they continually bang on about how much we cost them, l dont think it could be because we could run our country better without them. Many English and Welsh are already moving north. And I know many Scots living in England and Wales who would want to move back to Scotland if it was independent. And many would possibly want to get out if they are pro unionists, and we would not want to stop them

[Charles Bannerman]

And I know many Scots living in England and Wales who would want to move back to Scotland if it was independent. And many would possibly want to get out if they are pro unionists, and we would not want to stop them

In your first quoted sentence, you sound like one of these poor Caley Rebels who keep telling us that they "know" battalions of fans who allegedly still stay away from matches because they didn't like what happened. By the way, does your list include Shir Shean who clearly loves his country sho much that he shtays in Shpain?

And, worse still, your second quoted sentence predicts a chilling scenario of degeneration into a rump community of sad "Little Scotlanders" with not a lot more to their lives than sitting round their TVs, painting their faces blue, watching their Braveheart videos or repeats of Archie Gemmill's goal again and again and whingeing on about the English.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Charles Bannerman

[Alex MacLeod]

No matter the topic someone will always manage to get a merger quip in.

[starchief]

Does make you wonder why London want to hold on to us so much if they continually bang on about how much we cost them, l dont think it could be because we could run our country better without them.

The majority of English want Scotland to be independent to stop the moaning (the majority of Scots don't - why not read your reasoning into that if you're being fair?).

If you're talking parties, the Tories are in favour of a united Britain. I doubt there's much financial benefit in hanging on to Northern Ireland but the Tories want that too for the history and tradition. Labour started from a socialist anti-nationalist base (but have lost most of that). The Lib Dems are federalists - more power to local government, less to national.

It's not all about money.

[The Mantis]

Just my tuppence worth as I believe in independence but acknowledge that it's not the majority view.

The debate on independence in Scotland is a fairly mature one and has been vigorously waged since I was a student in the 70s and long before that.

Sadly, in England the debate is in its infancy (people seem to take it as a personal insult that Scots should want to rule themselves and often Nationalists are described as 'the BNP with kilts') and therefore Laurence, my friend, you have bitten off more than you can chew here.

It's no use introducing a political argument, accusing everybody who disagrees of being brainwashed and then throwing the toys out the pram. Just read back some of the personal insults you have dished out to Alex Salmond and anybody who has the temerity to agree with him.

Unfortunately you are displaying a colonial attitude and I believe like many people who move to Scotland for 'lifestyle' reasons you have discovered it is not some mystic brigadoon, but a real living nation where people are born, work, eat, fornicate, die. We are not simpletons: we are more politicised than where you come from: just a fact of life.

I'm afraid it is indeed scaremongering to tell people horror stories about being cut off from their relatives. Just imagine saying that to a native of Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden or Switzerland where people move freely between borders.

Documents released under the 30 year rule have shown that our own (British) government lied to us about the benefits of oil, in order to downplay the whole thing. So why won't they 'let us go'? Simple. Nowhere to keep the missiles. The Americans wouldn't like it.

P.S. I know for a fact that teachers in Ireland enjoy better salaries and holidays than teachers in Scotland or the rest of the UK. So do teachers in many other democratic European nations who have the political will.

P.P.S. Amazon are in Scotland and in many other nations: why assume the books come from England?

Edited August 22, 2012 by TheMantis

[The Mantis]

The majority of English want Scotland to be independent to stop the moaning

I don't think that's fair comment, apart from the tabloid headline-grabbing stuff. The vast majority simply don't care and if they were asked would simply say 'yes, why not?'

[MarkD]

Sadly, in England the debate is in its infancy (people seem to take it as a personal insult that Scots should want to rule themselves

I've never met anyone who 'takes it as a personal insult'. Why should we care. It's more a question of (i) not wanting the continual "neverendum" (ii) not liking Scottish MP's voting on English matters that are devolved for Scotland, (iii) not liking the disproportionate seat sizes (iv) increasingly with £9k pa tuition fees not liking the unfairness of the Barnett formula, hospitals and schools that are less resourced an so on.

Finally through the 2000's we had Salmond moaning on about "Westminster" (his code for I hate the English, we're not deceived) the whole time when a large proportion of the UK cabinet were Scottish.

The debate may well be in its infancy in England but given the £9k factor it's only going to increase.

[The Mantis]

I've never met anyone who 'takes it as a personal insult'. Why should we care.

But I said myself the vast majority don't care. That doesn't stop me watching Question Time, or seeing vox pops on the news, or letters in the papers, when somebody who's obviously never heard of the concept of independence goes 'But why would they want to do that? We're all British!'

£9k pa tuition fees

What a bizarre comment. The Scottish Government is entitled to spend its block grant how it sees fit to help the population. If the Westminster government wants to spend money keeping out foreigners or invading other nations that's their fault. Scotland probably needs a population of about 7-8M to be more viable, we don't want policies that suit the south of England.

Salmond moaning on about "Westminster" (his code for I hate the English, we're not deceived) the whole time when a large proportion of the UK cabinet were Scottish.

Should I dignify this with a response? Oh all right then.

You've kind of defeated your own argument here. You said it was not personal but here you are making it personal. By implication 'we are all Alex Salmond' :laugh: so the reason many of us are nationalists is not that we think it's better to have our nation run by the people who actually live there (including your good self if you like). No, it's because we all hate the English. I'm sure the likes of Mike Russell will be delighted to hear that, as will my nat voting neighbour from Leeds round the corner. The debate's in its infancy all right

[Charles Bannerman]

What a bizarre comment. The Scottish Government is entitled to spend its block grant how it sees fit to help the population.

Mantis... on this one, I am going to agree with you! That is why the Scottish parliament was set up and the areas where it can do that are set down in the Scotland Act. I have always been a strong believer in free University tuition, where relevant and the Scottish tradition for continuing it against the trend of the rest of the UK actually goes back a lot longer than the SNP administration to the days of the Labour coalition with the Libdems who were strong advocates of it.

On the other hand I'm also aware that the SNP will be aware that the more differences they can sustain between Scotland and the rest of the country (such also as free prescriptions) the better for them. OK - that's politics and they won the election when Labour went into meltdown.

I also wonder how a separate Scotland would fund all of this lot without Barnet Consequentials. (Oops... I forgot... it's like everything else - the OIL... which is NEVER going to run out!)

My only apprehension about free university places is that we fund far too many of them. There are far too many people going to university these days. Believe me, the university bound have been passing through my classroom for, literally, decades and in more recent years I have sometimes found myself rolling my eyes with bemusement. And in any case we don't need all these graduates in Sports Science to staff our sports centres nor people with Media Studies degrees to sell newspapers in WH Smith.

Edited August 24, 2012 by Charles Bannerman

[Heilandee]

My only apprehension about free university places is that we fund far too many of them. There are far too many people going to university these days. Believe me, the university bound have been passing through my classroom for, literally, decades and in more recent years I have sometimes found myself rolling my eyes with bemusement. And in any case we don't need all these graduates in Sports Science to staff our sports centres nor people with Media Studies degrees to sell newspapers in WH Smith.

Been saying this for quite some time,the obsession with "Uni" and "further education" regardless of the "quality" of the subjects, so long as mum and dad can proudly tell the Jones's wee Johhny or Sarah Lou is "doing a degree". I'd also question why students who opt to do "proper" degrees shouldn't , if fortunate enough to move into the higher end of the financial earning's, pay back something to help future generations enjoy the same level of education. Having left school at 16 ( my choice entirely) and worked ever since, i don't in the least begrudge folk university education, but they get the benefit of years of extra education and consequentially are not contributing to the financial upkeep of the country,sometimes into there mid 20's.Once they reap the rewards of their endeavours, i feel some payback would not be an unreasonable expectation.

[MarkD]

Should I dignify this with a response? Oh all right then.

You've kind of defeated your own argument here. You said it was not personal but here you are making it personal.

No, the point is Salmond's hypocrisy in complaining about "Westminster" when the cabinet was extremely well represented by Scots and the party was in power thanks in part to Scotland's disproportionate voting power. The decision to wage wars was made by these people just as much as anyone else. It's not personal.

The point about the £9k is that up to now the Barnett formula disparities have not been that visible and therefore have not generated much political mileage in England. My point is that this will change.

[MarkD]

By implication 'we are all Alex Salmond' :laugh: so the reason many of us are nationalists is not that we think it's better to have our nation run by the people who actually live there (including your good self if you like). No, it's because we all hate the English. I'm sure the likes of Mike Russell will be delighted to hear that, as will my nat voting neighbour from Leeds round the corner.

I have no view as to whether Salmond is personally "racist" (ie anti English) but I am sure that he gets that vote and, debatably, cultivates it. That's not to say that all people who vote SNP are, of course not. However it's not healthy to have a party that bases everything on 'it's all someone else's fault' though perhaps he's reduced that recently.

[The Mantis]

No, the point is Salmond's hypocrisy in complaining about "Westminster" when the cabinet was extremely well represented by Scots and the party was in power thanks in part to Scotland's disproportionate voting power. The decision to wage wars was made by these people just as much as anyone else. It's not personal.

Mark, I really think you're making a fundamental mistake here in invoking ethnicity once again.

Salmond's job is to secure independence for Scotland the place, not 'Scotland for the Scots'. It's the system that nationalists object to - the number of Scots in a British cabinet is totally irrelevant in a United Kingdom, they're Brits, despite what your average London cabbie might think. Just the same as we cannot complain about being landed with the Tories under the system as it stands.

Once you realise that, there's no hypocrisy.

[The Mantis]

I have no view as to whether Salmond is personally "racist" (ie anti English)

Ok I believe you. Maybe you could have phrased it better? I mean 'I hate the English' doesn't leave much room for maneouvre does it

However it's not healthy to have a party that bases everything on 'it's all someone else's fault' though perhaps he's reduced that recently.

Well I'm sorry if that's your perception - it's not mine. It would be a sad reflection on our nation if a party could get a massive majority standing on a 'grievance' ticket It seems pretty clear to me that the election campaign was very positive.

The whole point surely is to do so well in the devolved parliament that people will want more. That after 300 years of somebody else running our affairs we're actually mature enough to do it ourselves. Any other approach would be self-defeating.

However if Westminster needs to be challenged, it needs to be challenged.

One example - fishing is a major industry in Scotland. The British Government doesn't give a toss about fishing because in England and Wales nowadays the industry is pretty non-existent. What would you do? Just let it go?

Same with immigration. England is vastly overpopulated. Scotland is underpopulated despite being a wonderful place as you know. Generations of British governments have failed to address this. It's only good for nuclear weapons and hunting and shooting.

I've just had a brilliant idea. The government could make Viagra free in Scotland to increase the population. meanwhile the English can have bromine

Edited August 25, 2012 by TheMantis
I've just had a brilliant idea

[+Feb82000]

Royal Mail shocking service mail at 358pm on a sat afternoon and stagecoach not far behind both never on time or no show

[PullMyFinger]

By implication 'we are all Alex Salmond' :laugh: so the reason many of us are nationalists is not that we think it's better to have our nation run by the people who actually live there (including your good self if you like). No, it's because we all hate the English. I'm sure the likes of Mike Russell will be delighted to hear that, as will my nat voting neighbour from Leeds round the corner.

I have no view as to whether Salmond is personally "racist" (ie anti English) but I am sure that he gets that vote and, debatably, cultivates it. That's not to say that all people who vote SNP are, of course not. However it's not healthy to have a party that bases everything on 'it's all someone else's fault' though perhaps he's reduced that recently.

I am a member of my local branch of the SNP and there are a few racist comments occasionally but they are quickly shot down and the culprit made to look foolish without alienating them. Many branch members are English. Personally I have some English blood in me and have no issue with anyone from outwith Scotland, it's the "English rule" I can't stomach for whoever we get in Westminster Scotland is only a geographical area. The people best placed to govern Scotland are the people in Scotland regardless of race for we are the ones who live here.

[Charles Bannerman]

it's the "English rule" I can't stomach for whoever we get in Westminster Scotland is only a geographical area.

Mmmm... that sounds very much like the way the Highlands would fare under "central belt rule" in a separate Scotland. At least within the UK, the Highlands is one of several peripheral areas across all four constituent parts.

That's why I can't see why anyone up here would want to vote to have their every single affair dictated by a central belt administration which is already showing alarming signs of wanting to centralise things on itself - such as through single Police and Fire services and the freeze on Council Tax which reduces the autonomy of locally elected councils.

[+bughtmaster]

AAhaa Mr Bannerman, well said. Exactly my way of thinking.

Central belt rule would see the Highlands as their waste area, bribe the residents to go along with their plans for windfarms, nuclear waste dumping, Pylons and all the nasties that would make money and prosperity for the lowlands.

Ruin our natural beauty, our scenic heritage. Scar the lands with millions more fir trees instead of the deciduous forests of old.

Ignore the fact ( as Westminster has done) that we have some of the potentially best deep water harbours around the UK that have never ever been fully utilised.

Flood more Glens and dam them to enable more pipeline exports of our wonderful water.

Oh yes, Scotland would be rich and prosperous but only as far as the Caledonian Canal............. If that!!

As for being a Democracy no chance, a dictated to Republic I fear. The signs have been emanating from this Scottish Parliament for some time now.

Be very careful for what you wish for.

I would like to think Scotland will someday be self ruled but the people and structure to do this successfully are far in the future.