Merger Talk

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Introduction to the Families of Sneck: THE "MERKINCHERS" had ruled the Ferry and Carse areas for many years and were a rather insular clique. Their realm comprised mainly of council slums houses, inhabited by tribes of Dyces, Stewarts, Burnsides, Corbetts and Rodgers They rarely strayed from the homely atmosphere of establishments such as the Thornbush, the Locheil or the Albion (famed for having Pomagne, Scotsmac and Four Crown on the optics) or their dilapidated meeting place in Grant Street. They rarely fraternised with the Jeggies but were known to join the Howden Enders on forays into Ross-Shire and Morayshire plus "socialising" at the likes of the Strath, the Keppoch, the Ballerina and the Red Shoes, kitted out in the latest fashions sold in the Nicols Emporium in Grant Street They shunned the concept of family Unity and they had already ploughed significant amounts of stolen borrowed well earned spondoolachs in to the survival of their race and keenly wished to maintain their name, history and heritage. Their general presentation anyway was not viewed as the proper advertisement for Family Unity in Sneck by the Sneck Council, the INE and its known associates.  THE JEGGIES were mainly a middle class collection populating the more distinguished properties in the Crown, Lochardil and Culduthel. Their family presentation was far more what the Sneck Council, the INE and their known associates were looking for. They tended to congregate mainly in the Lounge Bars of the Heathmount, Craigmonie and Corriegarth whilst their main meeting place was peculiarly a dilapidated, falling down area of grass and mud called Kingsmills Park. They did also have a quaint little studio apartment in Baron Taylors Street. They were a very polite and politically correct bunch and preferred to rustle sweeting papers, doff their caps or engage in polite clapping and applause than to sing and tended to prefer picnics, garden parties, watching cricket in Fraser Park or a game of gowf at Culcabock. They were never many in numbers and it was often said that the only time a merry throng was seen in their area was when the Howden Enders stormed loudly up Stephens Brae or the Raining Stairs for family competitions. However the family had some very influential members of the Sneck Community with a load of spondoolachs hidden away for a rainy day. In truth they were "perfect" in the eyes of the Sneck Council, the INE and its known associates and it was decreed at an early juncture that they had to be included in the Family Unit application, by any means, fair or foul.  THE HOWDEN ENDERS were the vibrant, colourful, gregarious, extroverted, arrogant and oft controversial faction of Sneck. They were simply regarded as the top dogs, "The Rangers of the North". They had considerably more numbers to call on, more financially solid and owned a palatial, historical and revered Meeting Place on Telford Street. They would mass in groups throughout the Kingdom of Sneck, from the Jolly Drover to the Muirtown, from the Fluke to the Crit and the Gellions to the Royal Ordnance. They simply loved life to the full. Their name and reputation was known far and wide. They did not have the family presentation pull that was being sought by the Sneck Council, the INE and its known associates but they did have the numbers, the pulling power, the structure, the history and the finances. They also had the added bonus of a temple of worship on Greig Street (not Diggers but across the road). The Howden Enders had attempted to gain entry to the Scottish Premier League of Family Unit by themselves.They had been willing to sell off their Meeting Place to El Fahid and the Harrods Group and had approached the Sneck Council for a lease and/or financial support. The plan was to build a better Meeting place in the aptly named Northern Meeting Park. But little were they aware at the time that the Sneck Council, the INE and its known associates had already been plotting their visions and the Council voting processes around that application were the start of voting scenarios thereafter. Lets just say "Frigging in the Rigging"  . Unfortunately several of the elders of the Howden Ender clan had already been singled out for special attention by the powers to be, known to those in the know as "The Longshanks Project. TO BE CONTINUED  

Ferben - read from page 20 onwards and read the truth about the merger. It is about time the yoof of Sneck learnt about the sacrifices of their forefathers and how the birth of ICT coincided with the death of two beloved institutions.

[Alex MacLeod]

Inverness had been deprived of senior football for decades and it was a disgrace that it took until 1994 for it to come to fruition

Bannerman keeps harping on about how many more fans attend now than they did in the highland league but let's be perfectly honest here it wouldn't have mattered what team gained entry whether it was ICT,Caledonian,Inverness Thistle,United or plain old Inverness the numbers would have increased as the attraction was senior league football

Had Caledonian entered alone you would have all the same ICT fans that attend today minus the odd jaggie granted but the whole Howden End would be there too

The merger has decimated the Inverness football family and fragmented it into the following categories

1 Pre merger fans(Caley & Jags) that attended highland league games regularly 5%

2 Pre merger so called fans that maybe attended now and again or indeed if ever(Jonhny come latelys i.e CaleyD) 15%

3 Incomers to Inverness/post merger fans 40%

4 Inverness youths born after merger and as a result not permanently scarred 30%

5 Menopausel women 10%

Yes folk can argue over the % against each category but I doubt I'm far off the mark

Dougal

Sorry Dougalbut your statistics dont hold firm. Indeed they are very much the sort offigures that the NO campaigners would churn out. I not you have conveniantly omitted a large proportion of the so called refuseniks. You've omitted the 2000 odd who help make up the home crowd whenwe face Aberdeen, Celtic and Rangers. The ones who could never get to games to watch their real team but, instead, joined in the fun and frolics of a Highland League game. Some of them use the merger as an excuse but in reality have no intention of following another team in the same league as their true idols.

[Laurence]

I have read this topic from beginning to end AND IT reminded me of a job I once had at the British Museum in London

Although I was on £12.50 am hour I packed it in

All that history was getting me down

The same with this thread

Let it go and support the team as it is now.

History tramples on the brain and stops clear thought

We have - and I say we advisably as a new comer ( maybe I have no right) but I know history will count for nothing if the team goes backwards

Next season will be tough with Terry Butcher gone. The Fans of ICT will have to pull together and give all this Mumbo Jumbo a rest - There is a team to support.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I am shure Laurence that you would agree that the yoof and the newcomers are made fully aware of the true history of Caledonian and Thistle FC. Otherwise it is a bit like watching Braveheart and taking it fer granted that it was the real thing.

[Sneckboy]

It would not surprise me, if in the future, FIFA relinquished the memberships of the '4 home unions' to create one national team - after all, we are officially the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That's our political status and we're very fortunate to have 4 'national' teams' playing out of one country.

 

The independence 'debate' aside, we're luckyto have a Scotland team. Many member nations of UEFA are agitating for the UK to have just one team - which technically would be correct.

We would play under a UK banner - or, as it would likely be termed, Team GB or Great Britain. - just like at the London Olympics!!!

 

How passionate would you be following your new team?

 

Anybody who dared suggest that it's not quite the same as before should be strongly told that it still includes Scotland...and we're all from the UK - so we should naturally, fervently, support them as before!?

 

It's just an analogy, but worthwhile, as I'm annoyed at how easily some dismiss the merger as an historical event. Yes, it was 20 years ago, but only that. What about the 210+ years that went before?!

[Kingsmills]

A decent analogy. For what it's worth as a passionate Jags fan since the early 1970s I supported ICT from the outset notwithstanding us being the junior partners.

 

I know for a fact I would support a GB football team not at all.

[+bughtmaster]

Food for thought indeed Sneckboy,

 

 Take your analogy even further though, we are part of Europe, should there be just one European Team ? I think not, so sorry so I suppose i am daring to disagree with you on this one. There is a difference in as much as Scotland is a country within a group of countries within a single state which forms part of the continent of Europe.

 

 Caley and Thistle were two teams within a single City who amalgamated to represent Inverness and I am really glad they did because they are the beginning of the history of ICTFC and that history, Laurence, is important because without history nothing could ever reach fruition.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Jhesus if they had only found life in the galaxy - we could have had Uranus Thistle.

[Charles Bannerman]

Uranus Thistle.

Sounds quite painful

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

 

Uranus Thistle.

Sounds quite painful

 

 

Just like most of your posts on this thread. At least you are now having a laff and that evidently means that you have finally accepted the facts.

[Laurence]

It would not surprise me, if in the future, FIFA relinquished the memberships of the '4 home unions' to create one national team - after all, we are officially the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. That's our political status and we're very fortunate to have 4 'national' teams' playing out of one country.

 

The independence 'debate' aside, we're luckyto have a Scotland team. Many member nations of UEFA are agitating for the UK to have just one team - which technically would be correct.

We would play under a UK banner - or, as it would likely be termed, Team GB or Great Britain. - just like at the London Olympics!!!

 

How passionate would you be following your new team?

 

Anybody who dared suggest that it's not quite the same as before should be strongly told that it still includes Scotland...and we're all from the UK - so we should naturally, fervently, support them as before!?

 

It's just an analogy, but worthwhile, as I'm annoyed at how easily some dismiss the merger as an historical event. Yes, it was 20 years ago, but only that. What about the 210+ years that went before?!

 Rugby Union have National teams , albeit  the  Irish have a united team for their whole  Island

 

They also have the British Lions for some reason Scotland don't have many players in it

 

Maybe in soccer for championships like the world cup a British team would be a good thing

 

( A good way of getting Gareth Bale into the next world cup )

 

Rugby League have had a Great Britain team for years

 

Sorry if off topic ?

Edited July 14, 2014 by Laurence

[Laurence]

I am shure Laurence that you would agree that the yoof and the newcomers are made fully aware of the true history of Caledonian and Thistle FC. Otherwise it is a bit like watching Braveheart and taking it fer granted that it was the real thing.

 

Does it matter?

As long as Bury don't merge with Bolton?  Now that would be sad

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

That is exactly the analogy - just imagine Bury merging with Bowton and then you have that feeling that many Caley and Thistle fans actually experienced. And would you like the yoof of Bury to be aware of the history of the club before they started eating black pudding pasties ?

[Renegade]

What on earth happened in the early sixties 'cause before my National service in 1958 the concensus of opinion at Telford ST. Grant Street and Kingsmills was to amalgamate and have one strong Inverness Team to challenge the big headed Southern teams that thought we still lived in black houses up here. I for one who was a staunch Caley man am delighted that the name lives on in the Inverness team and proud of the progress the merger has brought.

 

It's funny you should mention that actually.  From my research, a merged Inverness of some description wasn't just an idea that popped into someone's head in the early 90s.  I remember seeing an "On this Day" thing in the Courier I think it was from the early 30s where a merger of Thistle, Caley and Clach (and possibly Citadel) fell through at the 11th hour.  Mergers are nothing new and we're far from the only one.  Aberdeen are a three way merger - Orion, Victoria United and another team named Aberdeen who played in white and blue shorts, merged in 1903.  Ross County are the result of merger between Dingwall Thistle and Dingwall Victoria United.  Motherwell are the merger of Glencairn and Alpha.  Inverness Thistle were a merger in some ways as well with the incorporation of Inverness Union and Crown.

 

I was told once that one of things the merger did was clear the deadwood.  You know, the people who probably had a big team anyway and went to the matches not so much for the football, rather as a vehicle for drinking and having a scrap.  They won't all be like that, but I'd guess that a good chunk were and good riddance to them.  But how many refuseniks are there?  I don't know, but I'd guess not that many, certainly not anymore.  But here's the thing - if there's so many of them, why wasn't the merger voted down?  If there's so many of them, why didn't they make more of an effort to fight back?  Why didn't they attempt to resurrect a Caley and a Thistle in the Junior leagues as FC United fans did years later?  The simple reason is, a lot of them probably never have existed and nowadays, they're a very small group, getting smaller and receive far more attention than is justified.

[Charles Bannerman]

 

 

It's funny you should mention that actually.  From my research, a merged Inverness of some description wasn't just an idea that popped into someone's head in the early 90s.  I remember seeing an "On this Day" thing in the Courier I think it was from the early 30s where a merger of Thistle, Caley and Clach (and possibly Citadel) fell through at the 11th hour.  Mergers are nothing new and we're far from the only one.  

You are absolutely right Reengade. The idea had been around on and off for decades - including twice even during the decade before it happened in reality.

[Sneckboy]

God, I miss that vehicle for drinking and a scrap! I wonder if I can still order it? I'll try 272727.

Engaged!!   All the refusniks, obviously!

 

Joking aside, it's an interesting post from Renegade.

 

As for the lack of opposition to the merger at the time - likely apathy. Evident in all votes including the UK parliament, these days. A party gets 30% of the vote and is the biggest party at Westminster, yet only 60% turned out to vote. So the 'winning' party, in reality only got 18% of the available votes. Surely not a mandate to govern?! But that's democracy!

 

Yes, some folk can't do enough for the club in terms of innovation, with speculative attempts at increasing the support through school visits and various community projects etc., and all are very commendable, But blood runs thicker than water - one does tend to be influenced by parents. We all see the kids being ferried about in pushchairs wearing bloody Rangers tops! Believe me, that kid didn't request that on his Birthday-present list!

 

Okay, the number of refusniks is obviously unknown. 

But, with the club now 20 years old, there could, theoretically, soon be grandchildren of refusniks!

Even if there were only a few hundred dissenters at the outset; extrapolating that number, over a few generations (assuming 2.4 children per refusnik), reveals a mind-bobbling loss of potential fans! It's not the initial loss of, even say, a conservative estimate of 300-400 fans, but the knock-on effect which is so over-looked by many!

[Charles Bannerman]

 

As for the lack of opposition to the merger at the time - likely apathy. Evident in all votes including the UK parliament, these days. A party gets 30% of the vote and is the biggest party at Westminster, yet only 60% turned out to vote. So the 'winning' party, in reality only got 18% of the available votes. Surely not a mandate to govern?! But that's democracy!

 

 

 

Even if there were only a few hundred dissenters at the outset; extrapolating that number, over a few generations (assuming 2.4 children per refusnik), reveals a mind-bobbling loss of potential fans! It's not the initial loss of, even say, a conservative estimate of 300-400 fans, but the knock-on effect which is so over-looked by many!

Sneckboy... believe me - the Rebels (and of course the pro merger side as well) scoured every highway and byway to get everybody they could into the Rose Street Hall that December night in 1993. Not a stone was left unturned. Look on it more like a 3 line whip in Parliament if you want to use a political analogy.

 

On the second point, apart from apparently assuming that refuseniks unerringly breed little refuseniks who have no minds of their own, are you not also assuming that those who attend games don't also breed?

[Kingsmills]

Is it not a fact that refuseniks produce two litters of an average of half a dozen or so every year ? There will be hundreds of thousands by now.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Good post Renegade and simply adds to the Merger debate. But there are mergers and mergers - don't feel that you can equate ours with your examples. And it really did take the supporters of bigger teams out of the picture and that is part of my argument. But it also took out a lot of Joe Soaps and peeple who had been more prominent attenders in the 60's and 70's and/or only chose to attend the bigger games. I have never talked about great numbers but I reckon that we have lost between 500 and 1K due to the long term dissenters. And there was never enuff funding to start off another FC United and again simply not on the same scale.

Rose street was a bit like the Referendum - only peeple from the local area could become involved - how many votes would be "lost" if we did summat similar today ?

I have been reassured by posts on Facebook as it would appear that the kids have in the main being allowed to choose their teams - even by Old Firm parents - and the clubs community drive has evidently been quite a success and our future depends on the yoof and SPL survival.

[The Long Man]

Well, Caley were a local team. It's a pub parlour game now, and anyone can bandy their speculative figures around with little or no likelihood that there is any way of determining an answer. Personally I believe we lost maybe a couple of hundred or less, but whatever it was it has been more than made up by subsequent new supporters who wouldn't have been died-in-the-wool Caley fans anyway. So we lost some, but gained a lot more. I think it easy to mistake the depth of feeling of the refuseniks with the breadth of their support - a diehard minority who, incredibly, still harp on, having missed out on an incredible journey which many old Caley fans, who have swallowed their reservations, have thoroughly enjoyed. The success of ICT has just embittered a few Cassandras who have taken great pleasure in pronouncing the imminent demise of the team for a long time now. I also don't buy the attempt to round up their numbers by visiting the sins of the fathers on their sons, as if they can influence the next generation by harping on about the 'war'. It's a kind of reverse engineering to fight a battle that was lost long ago, and rewrite the script in favour of the underdog - not an unusual occupation in Scottish football!

[Charles Bannerman]

Is it not a fact that refuseniks produce two litters of an average of half a dozen or so every year ? There will be hundreds of thousands by now.

There have been since 1994, didn't you know?

[Charles Bannerman]

 I have never talked about great numbers but I reckon that we have lost between 500 and 1K due to the long term dissenters.

I can just see Alex Salmond and Alastair Darling both embroiled in a stand-up fight to secure your services for their respective creative arithmetic departments!

Edited July 15, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Just as I suspected - trying to utilise humour and smileys. Shure sign of a defeated man.      Do they still have "Arithmetic" these days ?

 

Again, as with Renegade, I agree with most of what Long Man says. But I am referring to generations of Caley and Thistle fans - not related to the attendance slumps prior to the merger. You will be surprised at exactly how many Invernessians actually do disown ICT becos of previous allegiances. A lot will follow on to the Old Filth. I also know of quite a few who continued to support ICT in the early days but have now returned to their "bigger" teams and been eclipsed !! The refuseniks are the minority and the ones more likely to be heard BUT the majority are ordinary older generation Sneck football families, now residing across the Globe.

 

Here is a sum for you - take away the number of people who voted at Rose Street from the Caley away following at the Perth replay. And lets just say that the latter was 4,000 in case anybody gets Sevillian.

[Laurence]

That is exactly the analogy - just imagine Bury merging with Bowton and then you have that feeling that many Caley and Thistle fans actually experienced. And would you like the yoof of Bury to be aware of the history of the club before they started eating black pudding pasties ?

 

Why the ek dust keep babblin on with a mock Lanky accent. Its all bunk da nose nobut just a mock fake, stick tu scotch lad. before da mecks a reight clown o' thi sen

 

yoof would in my lanky days be yung uns or nobbut lads

 

bowton  probably better written as boughton as bowton sounds like a womens hat band

 

attiwemi lad or agin mi

 

Hey  Lanky Lanky Lanky - Lanky Lanky Lanky - Lancishere

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Translation - I agree with everything that you say IHE