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Sneckboy

Average attendance

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What attendance would we normally get on average for a County game at home and the same for Celtic?

Reckon if you swapped even just those 2 games to home encounters it would make a difference.

Despite it being morally correct or not to have removed the team, All the SPL teams miss the Rangers fans head count.

What I worry is that Rangers fans will boycott away games to the teams that voted against them. It's not like they need the away fans at their games as they can more or less fill Ibrox every week.

Having next to no away fans at a game like that would seriously hurt us in the pocket.

 

Rangers were not "removed" --they went out of business and the new club was fast-tracked into the bottom tier. If anything, they "removed' themselves.

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I can't compete with RiG's graphics but I have done a bit of number crunching in order to compare like with like with attendances for the last two seasons. 

 

Looking at the figures for the 10 other teams which were all in the top division both seasons, the average gate for our home game in the first half of the season was 3,980 last season and 3,925 this season - a drop of just 1.4%

 

Looking at the attendances only of the clubs we played a 2nd (or in Dundee Utd's case last year, a third) home match against, our average gate for the 1st match last season was 4,220 and the average gate for the 2nd (and for Utd using an average of their 2) matches was 4,337.  That represents an increase in gates for the 2nd half of last season of 3%

 

This season the average for the 1st matches for the clubs we played a 2nd home match against was 3,655 and the average for the 2nd matches was 3,157.  That represents a drop in gates for the 2nd half of this season of 13.6%

 

Looking specifically at the 4 clubs we have have played at least 2 home matches against in both seasons (Aberdeen, Dundee Utd, Motherwell and St Johnstone) the average gate for the first match last season was 3,417 and for the second match (again using an average of utd's 2) was 3,977.  That represents an increase in the 2nd half of the season of 16.5%

 

This season the 1st matches against those 4 teams average 3,519.  This is an increase of 3% on the previous year.  The average for the 2nd round of matches was 3,285 - a drop of 6.6% on the first round of matches and 17.4% less that the 2nd round of matches against those 4 clubs last year.

 

Of course, there will be specific reasons for sepecific matches but in general, comparing like with like in this way allows for a reasonable comparrison.  A specific match can still skew an average so it is also worth looking at whether the attendances against clubs where we played 2 or more home matches were up or down for the 2nd game.  In both seasons there were 7 teams we played at home twice.  Last season the attendance for the 2nd match was higher for 5 teams and lower for 2.  This year it was only higher for the Dundee Utd fixture - For the othe 6 teams there was a lower attendance for the 2nd game.

 

I think it is clear from this that comparing like with like, there has been a significant downturn in attendances in the 2nd half of this season.  Those are the facts.  Make of them what you will.

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Kenny Cameron in Press and Journal stating home end numbers haven't fallen but away numbers have. He says this is possibly due to County being in top league as well so fans come up once a season instead of twice? Would this explain DDs figures

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Sorry but Cameron is kidding himself if he really thinks the Home crowds haven't dropped. There are definitely fewer people in the Home end these days. Sadly the club just can't seem to win. People in Inverness it seems would rather sit in Auctioneers waiting on Rangers -2 coming in every Saturday than go to a game of football.

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The only difference between this season and last was that County were top six last season as well.  I don't know that any team played post split matches against both us and County but it won't have been been more than one and any impact on the overall figures from fans not wanting to go to both games would be pretty minimal.  In any case, the impact would have been to reduce last year's 2nd half of the season attendances when it is this season's that have dropped off.

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If we had our 4th game against Celtic at home on the last day we may have been near to the 6500 mark. That would have helped both average and away fans average.

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Sorry but Cameron is kidding himself if he really thinks the Home crowds haven't dropped. There are definitely fewer people in the Home end these days. Sadly the club just can't seem to win. People in Inverness it seems would rather sit in Auctioneers waiting on Rangers -2 coming in every Saturday than go to a game of football.

 

He would have access to the figures....so I very much doubt he is kidding himself, or others.

 

What's to be gained from that?

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I don't know if the Chairman's comments in the P&J were from a statement or an off the cuff answer to a question a journalist posed.  I would suspect the later because as CaleyD says there is nothing to be gained from deliberately misleading folk.

 

But that doesn't alter the fact that his statement would appear to be wrong.  Against the 7 sides we have played twice at home this season the average gate for the 2nd game dropped from 3,655 to 3,157.  That is a drop of 498 per game on average.  Kenny should have the figures for home and away support but I would be very surprised if a reduced away support accounted for that level of drop in attendance.

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I'd imagine the visiting attendance for 2nd fixtures would drop considerably...and whilst I haven't checked, I'd confidentially bet that it happens every season.

 

Look at St Johnstone...they normally bring a fairly healthy support, but had next to nobody there last Sunday.

 

It's one of the problems of playing the same teams 3 or 4 times where people decide "I've been there already, I'll not bother again"....and one of the strongest arguments to be had for increasing the size of the league.

 

Would also be interesting to compare how many of those 1st or 2nd games were on TV...something that can also has a large impact on visiting crowds.

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He would have access to the figures....so I very much doubt he is kidding himself, or others.

 

What's to be gained from that?

I don't know if the Chairman's comments in the P&J were from a statement or an off the cuff answer to a question a journalist posed.  I would suspect the later because as CaleyD says there is nothing to be gained from deliberately misleading folk.

I think it's pretty obvious the "attendance" is not the actual number in attendance which is far lower in some cases. Is that not misleading folk?

For example, Sunday's game there were fewer than 100 St J fans in an "attendance" of 3121. The main stand wings were empty so there were over 3000 home fans sitting in about 4300 seats? Nearly 3/4 full? Don't think so.

I understand there are commercial reasons for doing this and we are far from being the only club to inflate the attendance figure, but it is getting a bit embarrassing. Maybe just announce it as "tickets sold" or something instead?

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I would agree with Tob, I can't recall seeing so many empty seats in the body of the main stand as there were on Sunday.  There were never over 3,000 folk there.

 

With reference to CaleyD's point, my earlier post identified that last season the attendences went up for the 2nd matches for 5 of the 7 teams we played twice at home.  I've only looked at the figures for ICT and only for these two seasons so it may have been that last season was bucking the trend due to us having a very good season and challenging for top three for the first time.  According to the official figures, the St Johnstone gate for the 2nd game this season fell by less than the average - just 134 down on the first match compared with the average of 498.  Hibs was the biggest drop - the attraction of an away day with Terry and Mo is obviously less appealing these days.

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Have we become the victims of our own success? The club progressed quickly through the divisions picking up more fans at every stage. Add in giant killing cup exploits in the first 10 years which brought a few more. The start of the SPL in Aberdeen didn't help initial top flight crowds but when back at TCS crowds were healthy. The problem then became that fans started seeing the same teams over and over again and after ten years of upward motion we started get bogged down in relegation battles. All this adds to the effect that we have reached our core support and the " Big Teams" at TCS is no longer the pull it was.

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Looking in from the outside I see 3 problems

 

1. The League structure: Playing the same teams 3 or 4 times a season plus maybe getting them in the cups too gets boring after a while. That's why I have always advocated for slightly bigger league (somewhere between 16 and 20), doing away with the split, and playing a 'balanced' season each year where you play everyone twice ... once at home and once away. You do run the risk of the mid-table doldrums where a team is never going to win it but is always above the relegation zone, but I think facing every team just once at home over a season does make it more likely for someone to go to a game. 

 

2. Cost of a ticket: We can say its good value, or its cheaper than the cinema or it isnt etc, or offer sweet deals here and there, but whichever way you slice it, football is expensive to watch, especially if you are bringing a group of people (Adults or Family). People do not have the same level of 'disposable income' that they once had and many people have to watch the pennies and decide which games to go to (or not). When the cost is also coupled with #1, and with a less than stellar experience once at the ground (ie. crappy concessions, or a bad run of form) then it is sometimes easier not to go than it is to actually go !

 

3. Apathy: This is the hardest nut of all to crack and it has been around for years. As pointed out, we get high crowds for some games but not for repeat ones against the same opposition and this year again we have struggled to get decent crowds for some games you think would be better attended regardless of what the club might try to do to 'incentivise' the fixture. We were sitting 2nd in the league for a while and playing good football so it was not the product on the park that was an issue. When I was home at Xmas, I was excited to go to the games I could get to, but chatting with some folk, it seemed like a chore to them and they would rather be elsewhere ...... not sure how to solve this one and once it sets in for some folk you just cant re-invigorate them.

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I couldnt agree more Scotty....nail on head!

 

I think the notorious Highland Apathy is the No 1 culprit

Edited by SMEE

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I know we all have opinions on the reasons why but effective market research by the club could surely identify reasons why people aren't attending and ways that it could be changed, maybe they feel they do this already but the figures are suggesting otherwise.

I would also maybe try sending a club rep out to other clubs to see how they attract fans, start with Norwich City, pretty much 90% of their stadium taken by season ticket holders...what are they doing to draw in these numbers, the negatives among us will say premier league football and higher marketing and playing budgets but surely there are things to be learned from clubs that are doing it the right way, if you shoot that down try a lower league English club who attract large numbers, there are plenty. It's that attitude I hate, a shop can't just open its doors and expect people to walk in...you are a business and it's your responsibility to make people want to be a part of your brand, a crap poster here or there isn't going to make that happen.

I dragged my girlfriend along with me to the home game against Killie a few months ago and she did not enjoy the matchday experience at all, and it wasn't the football on show that offended her. If you are going to complain about low attendances surely raising the experience for people that come along with their other halves/kids/friends is the way to do it. Make attending a caley game a great day out for everyone, not just the pure football fans. That doesn't mean spending a tonne of cash on a half time show, but cant we do better than two kids walking around with a sign?! Take a look at the Glasgow Warriors match day experience, there are a lot of improvements that can be made.

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I know we all have opinions on the reasons why but effective market research by the club could surely identify reasons why people aren't attending and ways that it could be changed, maybe they feel they do this already but the figures are suggesting otherwise.

I would also maybe try sending a club rep out to other clubs to see how they attract fans, start with Norwich City, pretty much 90% of their stadium taken by season ticket holders...what are they doing to draw in these numbers, the negatives among us will say premier league football and higher marketing and playing budgets but surely there are things to be learned from clubs that are doing it the right way, if you shoot that down try a lower league English club who attract large numbers, there are plenty. It's that attitude I hate, a shop can't just open its doors and expect people to walk in...you are a business and it's your responsibility to make people want to be a part of your brand, a crap poster here or there isn't going to make that happen.

I dragged my girlfriend along with me to the home game against Killie a few months ago and she did not enjoy the matchday experience at all, and it wasn't the football on show that offended her. If you are going to complain about low attendances surely raising the experience for people that come along with their other halves/kids/friends is the way to do it. Make attending a caley game a great day out for everyone, not just the pure football fans. That doesn't mean spending a tonne of cash on a half time show, but cant we do better than two kids walking around with a sign?! Take a look at the Glasgow Warriors match day experience, there are a lot of improvements that can be made.

Out of interest what was it about the matchday experience she hated?

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I've taken her to a lot of football/rugby games, in her opinion there was not much difference between watching my brothers amature team playing and watching Caley...his games cost £1.50 so the ref can get paid, and i have to agree other than the stadium there is not much difference, they should be worlds apart.

I'm not trying to offend I am just putting forward a viewpoint that maybe those who care purely about the football may overlook

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I've taken her to a lot of football/rugby games, in her opinion there was not much difference between watching my brothers amature team playing and watching Caley...his games cost £1.50 so the ref can get paid, and i have to agree other than the stadium there is not much difference, they should be worlds apart.

I'm not trying to offend I am just putting forward a viewpoint that maybe those who care purely about the football may overlook

I'm not having a go I am interested in what you both think. Is it the product on the park then? Is it the food? Can you be more specific?

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Does anyone have an answer to this question, since one has always eluded me?

 

It is repeatedly said that ticket prices are too high and thec cost of attending football is a deterrent. In that case, why do charities seem to be queueing up to locate all these collectors with buckets outside grounds if people already find they have forked out more than they feel comfortable with?

Why don't the charities park themselves outside places perceived to be a lot cheaper such as Lidl or Aldi? (As opposed to Marks and Spencer :lol: )

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Does anyone have an answer to this question, since one has always eluded me?

 

It is repeatedly said that ticket prices are too high and thec cost of attending football is a deterrent. In that case, why do charities seem to be queueing up to locate all these collectors with buckets outside grounds if people already find they have forked out more than they feel comfortable with?

Why don't the charities park themselves outside places perceived to be a lot cheaper such as Lidl or Aldi? (As opposed to Marks and Spencer :lol: )

 

This is just a guess, but a significant amount of those attending the home end will have prepaid for the game in the form of their season ticket, and so may view attendance as 'free' and be inclined to donate. Also, a number of attendees may have come via a hostelry (or several, in some cases) and may be more disposed to donating. Also, the perception may be that people attending (so-called) expensive events have more disposable income, and so may donate.However, this is purely opinion, I have no data to back this up.

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Charles, a collection in the street or outside the cinema etc is classed as a "public" collection and charities need to obtain a license.  A small number of charities do hold exemptions, but have to operate within pre-agreed parameters. Collections held at TCS are considered "private" collections as they are on the business owners land and only require their permission.

 

As a result, I imagine collections at TCS are more popular purely on the basis of ease and less red tape....and the club being a bit more of a soft touch in terms of not saying no compared to somewhere like the Eastgate Centre which is a location which would also fall under the Private Collection banner.

 

Probably worth noting that collections at TCS bring in a fraction of what they once did. Whilst I don't have any exact figures I recall days when groups would report collecting 10 times what they do now.

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Some stats to ponder

 

Average home league attendances over last three seasons have been 11/12 - 4023. 12/13 - 4037. 13/14 - 3558. We played 19 home games in each of those seasons.

 

11/12 season had Rangers yet average was less than 12/13 with County. We had two home games against County and averaged 6258. This season we had one home game against County and a crowd of 4332. That equates to an average crowd drop of 1926. Statisticians looking at those figures could deduce that, if County are taken out of the equation, our gates are actually up. The fact is our crowds for 13/14 dropped by 479 but the average against County dropped by 1926 therefore our crowds for all games barring County are up by 547.

 

Think we can blame County for our drop this season.

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Losely related to attendances so will post on this thread. I noticed that St Johnstone who have lower home attendances than us from a community smaller than Inverness took twice as many fans to their final as we did to ours. If we had taken a similar proportion of our population we would have had in excess of 20,000 instead of the 7,000 we did take.

 

I realise that part of the reason is that the Scottish Cup is a more prestigious competition and the 3pm Saturday kick off helped as well but similar sized towns and cities such as Perth, Paisley, Motherwell and Kilmarnock tend to galvanise about a third of their population to attend finals both of the League Cup and the the Scottish whereas we took about a tenth of the population of the greater Inverness area. It can't be due to geography as County who are based even further from Glasgow than we are took the highest ratio of all.

 

Why is it that, despite great efforts by the club,we are still failing to engage and enthuse the wider Inverness community even for important well publicised one off occasions and, what if anything can we do to address the problem ? Before certain posters turn this into yet another merger thread I am talking about the community as a whole and not the few dozen continuing refuseniks.

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