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Ukraine V Russia--what's up?


Scarlet Pimple

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As the Russian jets buzzed the Canadian destroyer operating as part of a NATO exercise in the Black Sea a couple of days ago, which is an International sea by the way and has been a usual place for these forces to do legitimate exercises for years, the regime in Moscow deny that it was a buzzing. Presumably just a surveillance in case these bad NATO members were considering invading Russia..eh? :laugh:

 Meanwhile, with the Ukrainian fleet, such as it was, having been moved west to Odessa from the Ukrainian South East port of Mariupol, which Vladimir PUTIN covets so that he can  send his fleet down there to support his most -recently annexed prize of nearby Crimea, to allow land access from the North to that fleet, his land-based military spearhead reached the outer limits of Mariupol and the residents have been reported as digging trenches to hinder the progress of the tanks supporting the threatened invasion.

It is now clear that the 180 white covered trucks that  illegally entered Ukraine recently contained military supplies and food NOT for the poor peasants as  stated by Mr Putin but for the Pro Russian Separatist rebels. Now re-provisioned, the PRR's (who had been on the verge of defeat) have miraculously began a push back and regained most of the territory that they lost to the Ukrainian army over the past couple of months at a cost to Ukraine of some 200 soldiers' lives.

 

Today, Pimpernell spies report from their drone over Odessa that the Russians have attacked one of the Ukrainian ships and set it on fire and  destroyed another with the loss of life of one sailor and severely wounded another. Check your T. V. news to verify this . 

Further, the aim is reported as being a tactic of intimidation prior to moving West along the south shore of the Black Sea with the ultimate goal of securing Odessa as another base for their fleet. If he is successful, that will not only be a coup-d'etat but a complete fait-a-compli.

 

You have to hand it to Putin whose tactic of gradual encroachment has not only revealed that the West will not act to stop him, because Ukraine is not a member of NATO, but also to gain him back valuable territory that he lost when Ukraine separated from Russia.

Giving substance to the saying: ''If you pay gelt to the Dane you will never be rid of the Dane."

This move also gives him renewed access to the important coalfields and industrial might of the Don Valley near Donetsk in the area east of Mariupol. That's where Hitler lost Stalingrad and countless German and Russian lives during the 2nd World War in his desperate attempt to secure the resources of  Russia...what was it, 200,000 German prisoners of war sent to die in Russian prison camps?

 

During all these maneuverings, Mr. Putin is engaged in conversation with Mr. Poroshenko, the new Ukrainian President, demanding that he re-designate certain Eastern parts of the country with special status, meaning that they would no longer be viewed as part of Ukraine but as satellite states  under Putin's control . 

Mr Poroshenko's position is therefore a very difficult one since he sits  between the views of his Prime minister apparently being that he does not want to give up these states to the Russians in any way and the fact that, unless Mr. Poroshenko gives in on this, then the  invasion will continue  because Putin has told  him that "we can be in Kyiv( the capital of Ukraine) within two days." That's not an empty threat- it's a fact. The mere fact also that the Western friends of Ukraine have done very little  to help him in his hour of need only makes his decision a formality and the question to me now is how does he do this and still save face? His Prime minister is from the West of Ukraine and naturally wants to join NATO and align formally with the West which , of course, is precisely what Vladimir PUT-the boot-IN does not want at all costs. 

 

To summarise:

Should we be worried in the West?..  IMHO,  yes! 

Is Putin dangerous? IMHO, yes --if you allow him the rope to execute his plans of dominance and his desire to return Russia to it's former glories of the past. Which of course will secure his place in history as well.

 

The previous President left Ukraine several months ago in a hurry and took 30 billion dollars (that's right, BILLION) in two or three trucks stashed full of bank notes all without being stopped by anyone en route to the border. Thus robbing the country blind because this sum represented one year's total income for the country.

He managed this because politics in Ukraine are all about getting rich and civilised behavior is not a priority. Politicians are seen on T V attacking each other physically. And jail birds , such as Julya Timoshenko, once a very prominent political figure,  are back on the scene again and vying once again for the leadership.

I've seen photos of his mansion in Ukraine and the money spent on that Estate was incredible. Now the country is impoverished and doesn't have the resources to fight back for long against the Pro-Russian Separatists, who are merely largely comprised of Chechen mercenaries, since the PRS's are fully supplied and funded by Moscow. Their ranks have also now been augmented by regular Russian army soldiers.

Does Putin want a settlement? -yes but on his terms. He does not fail to remind the West that he has the largest nuclear arsenal in the world and if the Russians still treat their military in the way they treated them in the 2nd World War, then they are completely ruthless and soldiers are expendable; They executed 58 generals within  the first phases of the German invasion of Russia because they did not achieve the results that Stalin wanted, and they forced Russian criminals, or people who had displeased the State, to walk in minefields to clear them as they pursued the Germans as they laid these minefields in retreat. If you take on the Russians then remember Stalingrad where the cream of the Wehrmacht German army were slaughtered by fanatical Russian fighters who were all willing to fight to the last drop of their blood to stop the Nazi Blitskreig. And there are plenty of them too with a huge population and a huge country and they are no dummies either. Did you know that they have 6 lane highways in Siberia?

 

However, it's true that times have changed but the only thing now is that the mothers in Russia are sending letters to Moscow demanding answers to where their boys have disappeared to and, of course , many have gone back to Russia in coffins which, apparently, is causing a real stir. From all accounts this war is not popular in Russia since the relationship with Ukraine is too close for comfort with many people who have close ties with each other.

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That sounds like a word for word report from the BBC propaganda machine Scarlet.
 
Whats happening in the Ukraine just now is actually a ceasefire that NATO appear to be desperate to break.  If the Russian military lead by Putin on a giant fire breathing Unicorn, was really invading the Ukraine, they'd be in Kiev in about 2 days.

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As for the nonsense about Stalin, he killed alot more of his own generals before the war even started in the 1930's, it had nothing to do with "Russia" as you call them than what the Germans accomplished.  Stalin himself is hated in Russia today, he killed many more Russians than any other country during his reign.
 
You are clearly the product of media conditioning, you have lived a lifetime under their influence and story telling so I cannot blame you for that.  Russia bad, NATO good?   I'm by no means saying the Russians historically are saints but then we have even more blood on our hands, NATO (including Canada) have broken more international laws and fought in more wars than Russia ever has.

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If you want to bring the Nazis into the conversation, do a bit of reading on the history of Svoboda, one of the groups that were installed into cabinet positions in Ukraine after they overthrew their last government.
 
Go read up on the events leading to the encirclement of Kiev in 1941 and how the Germans were able to amass so many troops there so quickly.

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You know, CH2, I have only on occasion been able to fathom or agree with your past posts but I didn't really hold that against you  because  free speech is free speech. I just stopped reading them. And my great sense of fairness,which forced me to give you the odd "like" has now been revealed as insanity and I am desolate. As for  your acrimonious, vicious, sarcastic, bitter attacks on Saint Scarlet are concerned, all I can do is cry..."unfair". What a plethora of pubescent platitudes thou dost hurl against my defenseless breast,  oh Candid Harpie-2.

 

However, from one who has never been to Ukraine and noting your efforts over 3 consecutive posts to discredit the Pimpernell organization's reports by telephone, obtained directly from relatively neutral observers in Odessa who, initially, would not have minded if the Russians had taken over that city but now are in  outright opposition to them, I can see that you have some kind of problem with the accuracy of our spies' reports. Consider this:

 

The Russian language is used in Ukraine in the East and in the South, Including Odessa which is a beach-front resort and port where all people want to do is to work, relax and be peaceful. And, until Vladimir Putin started his nonsense everybody got along just fine. Everybody I met there was very friendly and nice to me - the cop we met on the overnight train to Kiev wanted to share his bottle of Scotch with us until he fell asleep and I tucked him in on the opposite seat and woke him up when we arrived in the Capital.

Did you know that when Pro-Russian Separatists (allegedly mercenary Chechens, NOT paid by NATO), fomenting anarchy, were attacked in Odessa, they had to seek refuge in a Trades Union Building which went on fire and all died. Everybody was horrified at what this type of anarchy can bring. So, now, the Russian-speaking southerners are as pissed off with V P as anybody else  because it's also reported by my intelligent contacts in the area that Crimea's people are no better off now than they were before V. P. ( that's "very persuasive" -at the end of a gun) came calling with honeyed promises of a better life, bigger pensions etc. OOPS! 

 

What makes you think that I have not read the past history of the area?

1. When the Germans invaded Ukraine from the South West in the 2nd world war they engaged a poorly-led army in some disarray and with some fast-moving action they swiftly arrived at  the capital Kiev and encircled it whilst the Russians retreated to the safety of their Eastern territories. However, Hitler's plans to push to the South East and invade the Caucuses to capture the oil fields took precedence and all went well until they arrived at Stalingrad to be eventually abandoned by Hitler. And the rest is history. And they didn't fare too well either did they at the Battle of Kursk in northern Ukraine, which was the largest, 2-day tank battle in history, and got their bottoms soundly spanked which sent them packing with a vengeance never to return.

 

2. Stalin was a ruthless murderer of his own people but he was also very smart;  and a savvy military man who understood exactly all the arguments that were being put forward by his Generals and usually he had out-thought them before they could even speak.

But what your point is in mentioning him is anybody's guess.  

 

3.NATO did not start this current conflict. The Russians under Putin did by annexing Crimea. Fact.

 

4.The current Ceasefire you refer to is only that if firing doesn't start up again--which it did after it was signed and both sides of course are blaming each other. So, what ceasefire are you talking about? -- Oh, you mean the lull in the fighting whilst Putin is putting the arm on President Poroshenko who bent to the pressure and signed the  deal because they don't have the money to fight anybody.  So you feel that that's the end of the ambitious Mr. Putin's plans do you? Well, I suppose the new American sanctions that are now being planned are being considered because they trust him to toe the Allies' party line? :crazy:

 

5.Oh, and  the question of the previous affinities of people that you say the Russians allegedly installed at the parliament building in Kiev,  I believe that  there is no doubt that the previous President Yanukovych was aligned with Russia's Putin but no Russians were actually in the cabinet in Kiev. Then Yanukovych absconded with the wealth of the country and is now persona non grata in Ukraine but I don't think anyone else did --unless you can name names of course? Unless you are referring to the previous politicians who all have had a finger in the pie but not to help Russia with whom they found it convenient to associate to feather their own financial nests.  Select one from the list  below and tell me about him or her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leaders_of_Ukraine#Ukraine_.281991.E2.80.93present.29

 

Meantime, back at the ranch........

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Lots of drivel SP.  You asked whats happeneing in the Ukraine and I answered within the first 11 words of the second paragraph on my first post.
 
Whats happening in the Ukraine is a ceasefire, paint the Russians as the enemy all you want but the fact is the day after there was a ceasefire agreed between the Ukrainian military and the Separatists, NATO and the EU forced through more sanctions against Russia regardless.  The current conflict between the old East and West has nothing to do with whats happening on the ground in the Ukraine, if it were the sanctions would never have been applied after a ceasefire.  There has been upwards of 2,000 deaths mainly on the separatists side and hundreds of thousands of refugees, mostly fleeing east from the Ukrainian military, nobody in the conflict has won a thing.  If the West didnt paint the uprising as an invading army, there may well be a question to answer for our leaders who have supported a government willing to use any means necessary to kill its own people.

 

Considering you assume the BBC is an impartial and balanced outlet, I think I can dismiss everything else you have to say on the world, youre clearly out of touch with reality.  The BBC is under constant threat of license fee reform and have to be 'on message'.
 
The old narrative of NATO GOOD, RUSSIA BAD just doesnt hold up to scrutiny, why peddle the BBC's garbage on here?  Have you ever actually listened to Vladamir Putin talk about the conflict in the Ukraine?  He's more interested in keeping them as customers of his countries resources than invading it.

 

The goal in the Ukraine is no different to the goals the West has in other parts of the world, mainly the Middle East, instability.  The current situations in Iraq, Libya, Egypt, Israel and Syria are entirely by design, instability leads to the West gaining twice over in investment and denying any one group of countries or people becoming influencial enough to stand up for themselves.  Who do you think will put up more of a fight in trade negotiations?  Assad, Hussein, Mubarack, Gadaffi?  Or the next local tribe or sect to hold power for a 6 month period, thats desperate to take what they can while on top?
 
We lend them expensive money, they spend it on weapons, we gain interest on debt repayments aswell as score big on arms deals.  It's a system thats been working since the Romans started picking favourites in all the little kingdoms around Europe, aslong as neither side could ever gain the upper hand you could fund them both forever.
 
In the Ukraine, NATO wants the Russians pissed off, without them there would be no need to keep investing so many billions accross the alliance on defence, the story needs a villain.

 

If they really are the enemy, why havent they taken over the whole of the Ukraine?  Why is there a Ceasefire?  With a ceasefire, why are there sanctions against Russia?

Edited by clacher_holiday2
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Your lack appreciation and due reflection of what you refer to as S.P.'s drivel is a severe affliction for you. And demonstrates an incredible lack of knowledge and understanding of the whole situation which I have tried very hard to grasp even if I have contacts on the ground and in the cities of that disadvantaged country named Ukraine.

 

For me to try to instruct you with further facts is unlikely to  bear fruit in the short term so I will simply comment upon the mistakes that you reveal in your thinking: So I won't be answering any more of your wayward, chaotic thoughts after this.

 

1.There is no "The" in front of the word Ukraine. Any more than the names of the following countries are The Scotland, The France The England etc. A long time ago, when Ukraine was a Province of Russia, before decided by referendum to separate from it, it was universally referred to, as "the breadbasket of Europe." due to it's huge plains and wheat fields. That meant that it was seen by westerners as a really important AREA in Russia despite it's size  being much less than that of the whole country and therefore added the word to signify this....etc.

 

2. In your paragraph two the sanctions to which you refer had already been decided upon as penalties for the further inroads of the Pro R S's , aided and supported by Putin. They were not an afterthought. Since then Putin has continued to supply weapons and provisions to the Pro Russian Separatists, who alone  could be swept from the country if they were not receiving supplies from Putin. You have ignored the fact I mentioned of the180 white covered trucks that deliberately were driven across the Ukrainian border in violation of Ukraine's border demarcation rights (i.e.a second invasion) and a violation of International Law because no permission from an independent legally-constituted sovereign state had not been obtained. The contents, (obviously weapons and supplies) were delivered and immediately afterwards the PRS started to regain territory they had already lost .At that point they had been within days of defeat. 

Why haven't you mentioned that you knew that Mr Poroshenko then opined that he could handle the PR Separatists and get rid of them within days but he could not fight them and the Russian regular army as well...comprising  helicopter gunships...... and paratroopers who just happened to stray across the border by mistake. Ha!  

It is well known that Russian troops were already in the ranks of the separatists -otherwise  how could some of them be flown home in bodybags, occasioning unrest in Russia -- about which you know nothing because it is well hidden from Western journalists! 

I did not start this thread, as you aver, stating that Russia was the enemy and did NOT draw comparisons to past East/West Conflicts. I simply said that the Russians would always be a formidable foe who never knew when they are beaten if attacked. The Russian people do not want war any more than any other sane country. Unfortunately,when Putin and his sort are referred to as Russians the simple reason for that is that they are Russian and it has always been the way that top Russian political figures  have been classified as the enemy because of their attitudes and actions. 

Citizens are not fleeing from the Ukrainian military alone. Their cities (Donetsk) have been invaded by the PRS's and in the WAR their homes have been obliterated. Again, Ukraine did not start this war they are repulsing invaders of their legal territory.

 

3.The BBC does not write articles --they merely print them. These are received from journalists and correspondents who know what the heck they are talking about ..many of these are seen to be unbiased reports  and are from freelance journalists.  If what these guys say reflects a fair picture of the actual situation on the ground that backs-up and substantiates S.P.'s reports from citizens of the actual country itself, then you should be prepared to listen and learn

 

4.. You say that Putin is more interested in keeping Ukraine as customers rather than invading it. Didn't you know of the industrial resources in the country he would take over if he did over-run Ukraine? No? Did you read what I said about why Hitler was  desperate in moving to the South East of that country to obtain the oil and coal of that region? No?    Did you know that Ukraine are already obtaining gas from Poland which will be like a red rag to a bull for V P. because his gas pipeline to the West runs through Ukraine? NO?  Did you know that he has already hiked the price of gas to Ukraine and prices have climbed in the country ? No?

And you are completely unaware of his wider objectives then? OOPS, -time for you to back to my previous post I think.

 

5. Your  paragraph 5 about Assad, Mubarrack etc is irrelevant and specious. Hussein was hanged, Gadaffii was shot in the head by his own citizens so.......? I am talking about the Ukrainian conflict, nothing else.

 

6.Your next paragraph about Iraq, Syria etc being deliberately kept off balance and in disarray has me completely baffled.  Who do you think is financing the ISIS terrorists--the Brits or the French?  Have you any idea what a campaign against these terrorists is costing and will cost? These smart bombs cost as much and maybe more than $1,000 each. And Obama is on record now as stating that a campaign to obliterate them will maybe take years. 

 

S.P. has gone to hospital with severe respiratory malfunctions and great pain in his chest muscles so I am replying in his stead. He was  laughing then crying so much after he read your last post that he could only gasp .." Daddy, do not fail me in my hour of need. If this is my last breath, reply to old Chlorinated Hydrocarbons2 so that he does not feel lonely and unloved. I think he has lead a sheltered life......aaaargh! :notworthy:

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Noted today:

 

This report confirms those we posted above from  our connections in Odessa except for one detail: I said that 30 Pro-Russian Separatists had been burned in the Trade union building shown here. Sorry, it actually was 40.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27517398

 

Apart from that, this independent online news commentary proves that Pimpernell operatives have very good connections everywhere: They are like Canajin mosquitos...  Now you see 'em, now you don't. :smile:

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http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-18018002

 

This article continues to confirm, earily, all of the statements that I have made in this thread so far. If it was not so I would not tell you would I?

 

It states that only 60% of residents of Crimea speak Russian or are aligned with an alliance directly with Russia. Yet, when Russia barrelled into Crimea to start this conflict, they held what they said was a referendum on joining Russia and over 90% of the population wanted this and voted for it. Later, neutral reports indicated that In fact only just over 60% voted in favour of Russian control and Governance and I have read further reports that some citizens were co-erced into voting and some were actually prevented from voting. 

 

It's well worth reading because I think it is an independent viewpoint from an international commentator obviously very well versed in the politics of the region and whom I have never heard of before, or knew from Adam.

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