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Low crowd today


tm4tj

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But, to get this kind of positive thinking into the world of reality and action, someone has to start a Committee to  gather, discuss and implement propositions put forward?

 

 I cited North American stadia criteria for pleasing the fans because the sports people over here (i.e the Ownership) are  advanced, aggressive entrepreneurs who have long recognized that what has been said above here ---it's a family experience, it's a day out, it's a comprehensive entertainment spectacle, it's what brings in the fans.

As someone said on here in an earlier thread it's about encouraging families to have  a good day out. Exactly.

 

If  dour Scots only think that Yankees are  bombastic, all glitz and glitter, over-the -top, razz ma tazz, unreserved nutcases  and far too outgoing for their own good  then why are they so successful in getting bums on seats?

 

What they are is often not so high-key as you think but proffer genuine, interesting events on the field before the play and during  half-time  which are colorful, dynamic and highly choreographed, well drilled and  very entertaining . They are in fact, within their own genre, very skillful shows which obviously have been worked on very hard by the participants because what they are doing is very meaningful to them. Often they are teenagers who are amazing in their passion  and precision and beloved by the crowd. 

 

Even at ice hockey games there is loud, blaring music as the teams enter the rink and whenever there is a stoppage in the game on the ice. It never ceases, even if it is only a short burst -- ramp up the  feelings at every opportunity is the message. It gets the crowd going and PUTS BUMS ON SEATS. Which is the whole  idea.

If their blood doesn't stir where is the excitement and a desire to part with their money.  

 

North Americans put a lot of effort into their promos and  so forth and that's all I can say about creating excitement and a spectacle that fans don't want to miss. They don't just go for the hockey, which often can be boring as heck, they want  their emotions to be roused after a week's work.  They want movement and action and a feeling that when they leave the stadium they will have  had an experience. And been to an EVENT. :wave:

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Crowds dropping is nothing that's unique to us and one of the reasons I've never really bought this "we're a new club so we don't have generations of fans" argument.  If it was all about how old the club was, the likes of Kilmarnock and St Johnstone, would be attracting 7,000+ to every game and formerly big supported clubs like Clyde and Queens Park wouldn't be out in the wilderness, attracting a few hundred to every match.

 

Lets be honest though, prices are too high and that's across the board in Scotland and it's even worse down south.  People can throw around the "we're top of league" and "we're playing good football" arguments until they're blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is, £25 to sit in the North Stand and watch ICT play Aberdeen is far too much for the standard of Scottish football and £30 for the Main Stand is quite simply a rip off.

 

I know it's been done to death as well, but the location and design of the stadium has never helped matters.  If we lived in Florida or Australia or somewhere like that, then it would be great, but the fact of the matter is, any stadium right on the seafront in Britain is going to be cold for three-quarters of the football season.  Why wasn't this considered at the time?  Places near the sea are cold and windy.  People, especially old people, don't want to sit in places that are cold and windy.  It's not rocket science.

 

The design is also something that should've been looked into at the time.  McDiarmid Park was supposedly based on Ibrox, why didn't people from ICT go to lots of different grounds prior to the Caley Stadium being built to see what worked and what didn't?  We're far from the pitch, in a openly designed stadium in a location where it's usually cold and windy.  Not exactly enticing is it?

 

Around where I sit I can think of quite a few people who have stopped going to matches over the last few seasons.  Maybe in all these good intentioned efforts to entice more people was done while taking those who were already there for granted.  Maybe the time has come to accept the crowds for what they are and try and maintain the regular fans we already have.  What about creating some kind of incentive to make them stay.  Three consecutive season tickets and then a free one for example?  And what about the dwindling away supports?  What about allowing season ticket holders of opposition clubs in for a discount as well?

 

Match experience must surely come into play here.  Someone earlier mentioned MK Dons and match experience at events in North America.  These are both good suggestions.  I've heard that teams like the Braehead Clan do match experience very well, particularly for a minority sport.  Why don't we bring the person in charge of that to the Caley Stadium and allow them to sample our match experience?  And when I say bring them to the stadium, I don't mean sticking them in a warm and cosy director's box, I mean sticking them with a normal seat in the North Stand.  Maybe bringing in from the outside would be the best thing we could do.

Edited by Renegade
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Renegade,

The likes of St J and Kilmarnock have shown that their support comes out if they are doing well, cup games and European games as examples. We don't have that sort of support at anytime, these clubs do and that is the point I make when I said about age of club. They don't get 7,000 every week but can take 20000 to cup finals and full houses for Euro nights. These fans will turn up for special occasions but we don't have this. We are not competing with Queens Park so that anology is meaningless

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The world has moved into the future over the past 50-100 years at a pace which has far outstripped  all main societal developments  that have taken place over the previous, many,many,many years. 

 

This presents great challenges to the loyal fans and to well-intentioned owners of clubs who would probably like to increase the comfort of fans and the experience they get when they arrive at the stadium but just don't have the knowledge of what is happening elsewhere in the world viz-a-viz entertaining the fans with other than football.

If they did have, or do have, then most likely the thought that emulating these other sports venues is out of their financial league  for good reason because the fan base does not generate the revenue to allow for implementation of new schemes of entertainment. This must be very discouraging I am sure and quite a daunting challenge unless wealthy investors can be persuaded to make the investment needed to change things for the better. 

 

Then you have the  situation that has happened to the once respected club of Glasgow  Rangers where their reputation is now cloudy to impenetrable darkness, attracting all kinds of errant people with equally squalid backgrounds wanting to have the prestige of being associated with that club but not having the personal love for it nor the real financial insights and controls nor  brains to make it work by imposing the strict discipline needed to get things under control.

This reflects badly on Scottish football and must be devastating to current SPL ownership and or shareholders who know full well that without Rangers or Celtic their revenue streams will diminish....just for one thing. So, is Celtic next for shaving within this mess?

 

The advent of  advanced radio broadcasts, T V and the Internet have siphoned off countless fans who won't leave their armchair if they are cold or uncomfortable or are just finding that flicking channels is much more convenient and more exciting than attending a football match -- for whatever reason. Fans are more sophisticated and have more outlets for spending their money now than in these days of yore. And things are expensive in the U K compared to Canada , as I have found, so --- go figure.

 

And, if I were an SPL  Board member I would be screaming out for Summer football for all the obvious reasons. The former glories of the mud baths of past, glorious Highland League days are over.

IMHO, an immediate change over to Summer football is not only mandatory but absolutely crucial to the survival of football in Scotland. Phone David Beckham and ask him why he is investing in the North American Soccer League after his retirement instead of in a team from the English Premier League. ESL is "old hat" and plays in winter conditions.

The NASL is forward-looking and  willing to change and experiment and long ago saw the obvious advantage of playing in  fair weather or bright sunshine. If they played here in Vancouver then, in the winter with so much rain, conditions would soon deteriorate.

I attended one game  at Swangard stadium in Burnaby (the former home of the Whitecaps) a few years ago and the game was almost abandoned due to the horrific lightning and thunderstorm that descended upon us. My pal and I waited for 45 minutes to allow the threat to pass and finished the match. But we were safe and dry sitting in the stand whereas all the spectators who were outside on the terracing etc. were told to vacate  their spots immediately.

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Renegade,

The likes of St J and Kilmarnock have shown that their support comes out if they are doing well, cup games and European games as examples. We don't have that sort of support at anytime, these clubs do and that is the point I make when I said about age of club. They don't get 7,000 every week but can take 20000 to cup finals and full houses for Euro nights. These fans will turn up for special occasions but we don't have this. We are not competing with Queens Park so that anology is meaningless

 

1. Kilmarnock is a fraction of the distance to Glasgow Inverness is and Perth is a lot closer too.  Obviously they would take more.  St Johnstone's final was a Scottish Cup final.  How do we know the fans won't turn up for us at that considering we've never been there?  The same goes for Europe.

 

2. We're talking about home matches, not cup finals.  Does this massive support turn up for league matches even when they're doing well?  Not really.

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Renegade,

The likes of St J and Kilmarnock have shown that their support comes out if they are doing well, cup games and European games as examples. We don't have that sort of support at anytime, these clubs do and that is the point I make when I said about age of club. They don't get 7,000 every week but can take 20000 to cup finals and full houses for Euro nights. These fans will turn up for special occasions but we don't have this. We are not competing with Queens Park so that anology is meaningless

1. Kilmarnock is a fraction of the distance to Glasgow Inverness is and Perth is a lot closer too. Obviously they would take more. St Johnstone's final was a Scottish Cup final. How do we know the fans won't turn up for us at that considering we've never been there? The same goes for Europe.

2. We're talking about home matches, not cup finals. Does this massive support turn up for league matches even when they're doing well? Not really. Seen as St J or Kilmarnock have not been top of the league in my memory how do we know they won't?

P.s

St J v Luzern in Perth earlier this year was a crowd of 8486. Looks like crowds go when they do well.

Edited by Big G
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The whole Europe factor brings out the crowds because it is a novelty and something new compared to the same old of the normal season.I am sure our crowds would go up and may be close to full if we had a small run in Europe as it is new for us. I believe most sides in the premiership have enough supporters to sell out week in week out. Aberdeen 40000 v us last season, Dundee Utd sell out derbies plus 25-30,000 at cup finals, Dundee have decent crowds and could sell dens, St Johnstone sold out McDairmaid in the past and almost did it for European games, Partick got 9,000 for a decider v Morton a few seasons back, Motherwell in Europe, Hibs and Hearts both have enough to sell out each of there grounds and more but more often than not no ground is full. All these show though that it is one off events and it brings the crowds. The league set up is overpriced and has no novelty left. But i'm not going to open that can of worms up again so we have to try to do the best we can as a club on the issues we can control. Although there is no massive world class talents i still think the standard of football is entertaining even if it isnt of high technical quality. We lost 3-2 to Aberdeen today in a game that could of gone either way with chances for both sides and we have lost it is still decent entertainment. We just need to get more people to see this entertainment and take pride in their local team which is easier said than done

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Renegade,

The likes of St J and Kilmarnock have shown that their support comes out if they are doing well, cup games and European games as examples. We don't have that sort of support at anytime, these clubs do and that is the point I make when I said about age of club. They don't get 7,000 every week but can take 20000 to cup finals and full houses for Euro nights. These fans will turn up for special occasions but we don't have this. We are not competing with Queens Park so that anology is meaningless

1. Kilmarnock is a fraction of the distance to Glasgow Inverness is and Perth is a lot closer too. Obviously they would take more. St Johnstone's final was a Scottish Cup final. How do we know the fans won't turn up for us at that considering we've never been there? The same goes for Europe.

2. We're talking about home matches, not cup finals. Does this massive support turn up for league matches even when they're doing well? Not really. Seen as St J or Kilmarnock have not been top of the league in my memory how do we know they won't?

P.s

St J v Luzern in Perth earlier this year was a crowd of 8486. Looks like crowds go when they do well.

 

 

Everyone knows people will come of the woodwork for big one-off novelties.  Getting these people to come more regularly for normal games is what clubs like ours are all trying to do.

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The whole Europe factor brings out the crowds because it is a novelty and something new compared to the same old of the normal season.I am sure our crowds would go up and may be close to full if we had a small run in Europe as it is new for us. I believe most sides in the premiership have enough supporters to sell out week in week out. Aberdeen 40000 v us last season, Dundee Utd sell out derbies plus 25-30,000 at cup finals, Dundee have decent crowds and could sell dens, St Johnstone sold out McDairmaid in the past and almost did it for European games, Partick got 9,000 for a decider v Morton a few seasons back, Motherwell in Europe, Hibs and Hearts both have enough to sell out each of there grounds and more but more often than not no ground is full. All these show though that it is one off events and it brings the crowds. The league set up is overpriced and has no novelty left. But i'm not going to open that can of worms up again so we have to try to do the best we can as a club on the issues we can control. Although there is no massive world class talents i still think the standard of football is entertaining even if it isnt of high technical quality. We lost 3-2 to Aberdeen today in a game that could of gone either way with chances for both sides and we have lost it is still decent entertainment. We just need to get more people to see this entertainment and take pride in their local team which is easier said than done

That will always be the case. People enjoy the thrill of finals and such but dont enjoy the mundane week in week out football.

Edited by Alex MacLeod
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Don't know if money is as big an issue as some people make out and how much would you have to reduce tickets by?. To my mind, a £5 reduction which is the minimum needed probably would still not generate sufficient fans so what then. When we have reduced prices before for cup ties, crowds have not increased so that is why I do not think pricing is such a big deal as is made out. However, probably a bigger reason is the league format which is just too boring and repetitive as it stands and needs to change to make things more attractive.

As for improving the match day experience for fans, I just don't think the American/Canadian experience will work here. I have been at several baseball games in the States and while many fans make a day/night of it, just not convinced we have the same mentality here. Having said that, there are some simple things that we could do. Pricing and choice of catering have to be more keenly priced with better service. The choice of music played at the ground seems very random, perhaps if more rousing tunes were chosen or build up to a rousing tune before kick off might help increase the atmosphere. The club also needs a rousing song that the fans can identify with that signifies something to the fans.

No easy solution but there are some simple ideas which could be tried.

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I was back today and we had atleast 400 today in aberdeen can't be a coincidence.

I hope you and your 400 followers can make the county matc;-)

 

Aye should be going to it and i shall bring my followers 

 

Are you bringing your female friends again.

 

20553.jpg

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The whole Europe factor brings out the crowds because it is a novelty and something new compared to the same old of the normal season.I am sure our crowds would go up and may be close to full if we had a small run in Europe as it is new for us. I believe most sides in the premiership have enough supporters to sell out week in week out. Aberdeen 40000 v us last season, Dundee Utd sell out derbies plus 25-30,000 at cup finals, Dundee have decent crowds and could sell dens, St Johnstone sold out McDairmaid in the past and almost did it for European games, Partick got 9,000 for a decider v Morton a few seasons back, Motherwell in Europe, Hibs and Hearts both have enough to sell out each of there grounds and more but more often than not no ground is full. All these show though that it is one off events and it brings the crowds. The league set up is overpriced and has no novelty left. But i'm not going to open that can of worms up again so we have to try to do the best we can as a club on the issues we can control. Although there is no massive world class talents i still think the standard of football is entertaining even if it isnt of high technical quality. We lost 3-2 to Aberdeen today in a game that could of gone either way with chances for both sides and we have lost it is still decent entertainment. We just need to get more people to see this entertainment and take pride in their local team which is easier said than done

That will always be the case. People enjoy the thrill of finals and such but dont enjoy the mundane week in week out football.

 

 

I know but it used to happen 20-30 years ago with terracing where crowd figures would be thousands even tens of thousands more than they are at moment. The league structure is stale and I believe that Scotland needs to follow some of the route that was proposed  when the league reconstruction debate was happening. The full time clubs need to go alone and the other smaller clubs need to go into regional leagues as far to many of the part teams have very little ambition to go far yo-yoing between league 1 and 2. But I think we have to face facts that we are a small supported club atm and i point to the cup quarter vs Dundee Utd last season. We at one stage were second in the league, reached our first national cup final and were going strong in the premier cup competition. The club reduced prices and we were on the verge of a semi final of the Scottish cup that people rave about being the most important and that people will come out for it more than the league cup. We got a very poor crowd for what was a big match and ok we had played Utd a few times already in the league but for a one off cup match we could have expected more even if the cup final was the next weekend. That is the state of play and the club does a lot to encourage more people and especially build bridges with the youth who are the future. The econonmy isnt great and people are struggling and it is an expensive past time that some people have to choose to bin off there weekly budget as it is a luxury rather than a necessity. But I think it is overplayed as an excuse and i think that most people that don't go, don't because they don't want to rather than money constraints. When i was a ST holder i used to get stopped by people after games on my way to the train or bus station what the score was and some were very interested but they didn't go to the game. Why are these people not going if they are interested, where are those fan that promised to back the club if it did the right thing with the Rangers issue a few seasons back and where are some of the fans who were so turned off by that first season of experimentation by Butcher (when he started bringing in all those new faces and got rid of some of the clubs highland core). Those people were disgusted by some of the football and i agree it wasnt pretty and some people threatened and some did not renew but Butcher turned it around and since we have grow better and better where are those people. I think it has been said but sometimes we should stop making excuse's for these people and criticize the club for not doing enough when these people have to actually meet the club half way and criticize them for not doing enough for there local club. 

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I think we are looking here at the quite common phenomenon of an outcome created by several factors operating in the same direction. I also think that reasons for any club suffering low attendances fall into two broad categories - factors relating to the club and external factors.

Yes, it may well be the case that ticket prices are a deterrent but on the other hand how do clubs react to this? It has all to do with an economic principle called "elasticity of demand" (how much your sales figures change in response to a price change) and also the need to maximise income. If you reduce ticket prices by 20% but your gate only increases by 10% you are actually going to lose money.

There are various other factors which could be discussed, but the question which I have been asking of late is simply whether watching football live in a stadium (or possibly football which is not quite at the very highest levels) is drifting away from being flavour of the month again.

Back, for instance, in the 1950s, you would get huge crowds at Scottish games but by the time it came to around the early 80s this had seriously fallen away. Then into the 90s (round about the time ICT and County entered the SFL) there was an upswing again and now I wonder if that is returning to full circle once more because it's not just the TCS that is feeling the draught (excuse the unintended pun!!!)

This may well be a natural cycle of period several years and I suspect that on this occasion it may be driven by the plethora of televised football now on offer. If people can get their football fix by watching the Champions' League or the English Premier League on TV, the incentive is all the less to pay 20 odd quid to sit outside in a chilly stadium watching technically less gifted, albeit perfectly worthy, football.

That is a prime example of factors external to any club and I do wonder if another is also TV related. The continuity of going to watch football on a Saturday afternoon has been so seriously dislocated by games rearranged for the necessary reason of TV revenues that I also wonder whether the habit of fans going along is also being broken? Also on that general subject, whilst strongly supporting Saturday afternoon football, I do wonder if 3pm kick offs are now just a bit late. I would imagine that they are an historical legacy of the days when men worked on Saturday mornings so needed time to get to games. Nowadays maybe people would prefer to get home a bit earlier, especially when traffic problems and car park exit delay that process even more.

I am sure that there are other factors directly relating to individual clubs - including ICT - but I am now rather concerned that actual attendance at matches other than of the very highest calibre is becoming the flavour of last month.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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 Some interesting points made above.

 

Baseball in North America is more of a cult  thing than anything else. It is very popular but a bit too slow for me.

 

I was basically referring to the Whitecaps and other NASL soccer games and their  ways of increasing enthusiasm amongst the fans to gear up the atmosphere. You always seem to get the feeling when watching these huge crowds of soccer fans on the T V at these games that they find the whole game as a fascinating day out. Rather than diminishing as time goes along it seems that the crowds are increasing, if anything.

 

I've been watching the reruns of the latest ganes and the tempo does seem to have been upped compared to formerly when the players often seemed to think that they were on a holiday or something.The league clubs have introduced a good few former English P League players and they are paid enormous sums of money. Their presence alone , being so experienced, ,perhaps has introduced the crowds to a somewhat higher standard of play and other North American born players  may be learning from them and upping their game. I do get the impression that here the clubs are getting more professional.

The world cup did the game no harm here also but in Britain soccer is so old-hat that maybe it's started into a downturn in popularity.

 

I mentioned the friendlies with overseas teams just to see if introducing a fresh face or two into the local game would do any good.  One thing seems to be for sure--you have to try something.

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The impression I got was the North Stand was slightly fuller than usual, while the Main Stand was just as usual.  The away support was absolutely shocking though, that was an embarrassment to their team.

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Have to say the boos at HT were a disgrace.

This group of players are the best, most professional and hardest working we've ever had and probably ever will have at the club. For them to be booed off after one half of poor football in a season where we're sitting 3rd is nothing short of disgraceful.

The first half was terrible, admittedly, but everyone has an off day. I feel so sorry for the boys, they deserve so much better.

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