profit or loss?

[PerfICT]

Well done to ICT for a second successive profit of £28k. My concern is that this was at the end of our most successful year ever, with a cup final and compo for Butcher. With further declines in our attendances, are we really running at £500k deficit for an average season? Perhaps a bit negative, but a reality check?

[AlexJones]

Our attendances will be up next season when Rangers and Hearts return.  

[PerfICT]

Our attendances will be up next season when Rangers and Hearts return.

Possibly Alex, but that would be more than offset by not getting to the final of the league cup, finishing a bit further down the league and (possibly) RC going down. I was expecting at least £300k return from last season - the consequence of not having a war-chest is that we'll lose McKay, Meekings, Shinnie etc because we simply can't offer the wages they frankly deserve. So, they leave on a free in the summer and we enter the cycle that our neighbours are suffering from this year. I suppose the "good" news is that others have made losses, so we should perhaps be grateful!

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The better scenario would be Hearts and Rangers coming up, county surviving.and Well and Midden going down.

[CaleyD]

Well done to ICT for a second successive profit of £28k. My concern is that this was at the end of our most successful year ever, with a cup final and compo for Butcher. With further declines in our attendances, are we really running at £500k deficit for an average season? Perhaps a bit negative, but a reality check?

 

Income from the League Cup and compo for Butcher would have been nowhere near £500k.  If income from the League Cup got anywhere near 6 figures I would be surprised given the lack of sponsor and increased costs from not having use of the National Stadium for the finals.

 

Factor in the lack of any league sponsor income for the season as well and, all in all, I think it's a miracle that the club managed to keep things in the black.

[rocky1]

Think we are making a big thing re County crowds they have done little to boost attendances last 2 home games and with potentially 4 trips North for other fans perhaps county going down might actually help us

[TopSix]

Think we are making a big thing re County crowds they have done little to boost attendances last 2 home games and with potentially 4 trips North for other fans perhaps county going down might actually help us

I'm of this opinion too. They do have 'fans' who boycott our ground.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Well that is due to the Merger.

[old caley girl]

Think we are making a big thing re County crowds they have done little to boost attendances last 2 home games and with potentially 4 trips North for other fans perhaps county going down might actually help us

Totally agree. I think County suck more away from us (sponsors etc) than we get back now. Derby crowds at our place dreadful in the away end.

[Kingsmills]

 

Well done to ICT for a second successive profit of £28k. My concern is that this was at the end of our most successful year ever, with a cup final and compo for Butcher. With further declines in our attendances, are we really running at £500k deficit for an average season? Perhaps a bit negative, but a reality check?

 

Income from the League Cup and compo for Butcher would have been nowhere near £500k.  If income from the League Cup got anywhere near 6 figures I would be surprised given the lack of sponsor and increased costs from not having use of the National Stadium for the finals.

 

Factor in the lack of any league sponsor income for the season as well and, all in all, I think it's a miracle that the club managed to keep things in the black.

 

 

I too am worried that we only turned a profit of £28,000 in such a successful year and agree with the OP that that would have been a loss approaching half a million pounds in a less successful season.. To suggest that income from the league cup was nowhere near a hundred thousand pounds is frankly ridiculous given that gate receipts alone for the semi and the final were in the region of a million pounds of which we would have received more than a third. Taking into account earlier rounds, TV income and other benefits I would be astonished if we earned  short of £400,000 from that cup run which will not be replicated this year.

Edited October 20, 2014 by Kingsmills

[mainstander]

Our attendances will be up next season when Rangers and Hearts return.  

County will beat Rangers in the playoffs.

[Kingsmills]

 

Our attendances will be up next season when Rangers and Hearts return.  

County will beat Rangers in the playoffs.

 

If that proves to be the end of season scenario count me as a staunch County fan..

[Sneckboy]

We'll just have to go on a cup run this year!

I've not been to Hampden since the Dunfermline draw. Indeed, since we became an 'established' club, (SPL), we've not reached a semi-final (Scottish Cup).

Providing the draw is kind, I think we could do well this year. But, I agree, Kingsmills, we should be slightly concerned at the annual return as cup runs are a bonus, and obviously aren't factored in to our financial planning.

 

Maybe the 'silver' award for ICT's fiscal health etc. isn't just there to add a bit of colour!

I sincerely hope there's not something 'brewing' and that we're not going to be hit with the bombshell that we're operating outwith our means.  

[CaleyD]

 

 

Well done to ICT for a second successive profit of £28k. My concern is that this was at the end of our most successful year ever, with a cup final and compo for Butcher. With further declines in our attendances, are we really running at £500k deficit for an average season? Perhaps a bit negative, but a reality check?

 

Income from the League Cup and compo for Butcher would have been nowhere near £500k.  If income from the League Cup got anywhere near 6 figures I would be surprised given the lack of sponsor and increased costs from not having use of the National Stadium for the finals.

 

Factor in the lack of any league sponsor income for the season as well and, all in all, I think it's a miracle that the club managed to keep things in the black.

 

 

I too am worried that we only turned a profit of £28,000 in such a successful year and agree with the OP that that would have been a loss approaching half a million pounds in a less successful season.. To suggest that income from the league cup was nowhere near a hundred thousand pounds is frankly ridiculous given that gate receipts alone for the semi and the final were in the region of a million pounds of which we would have received more than a third. Taking into account earlier rounds, TV income and other benefits I would be astonished if we earned  short of £400,000 from that cup run which will not be replicated this year.

 

 

It's far from ridiculous.....I can assure you of that.

 

Just take a look at the clubs turnover on the last two sets of accounts....it's only up by something like £170k.  If income had gone up by £400k....where's the other £230k?

 

Clubs get paid income from the League Cup after all expenses.  Last season the cup had no sponsor, so no sponsor money.  Add in that the sponsors normally cover the bulk of the cost of marketing (via own PR companies/initiatives) and that marketing costs increased (although not sure on what) and that's another chunk of money off the total.  You then have rental/costs of stadiums for both Semi's and the Final as Hampden wasn't available (and normally only requires payment of costs)....a fairly considerable chunk of the total.  Not much left after all that...!!!  I'd wager that the clubs who hosted the Semi's and Final probably made more than those partaking in them.

 

You could argue that the pitiful income from getting to the league cup final barely compensated us for the undoubted effect it had on our league campaign....and whilst I want ICTFC to do well in every competition they play in, if being out of the league cup allows us to focus on the league and attain a couple of additional places, then we'll be better off financially.

[Kingsmills]

The other £230,000 comes from lower league prize money as a result of dropping a place, a reduction in gate income and reduced commercial revenue.

 

Gross income from our League Cup run is, without doubt, closer to £400,000 than £100,000

[CaleyD]

As we are both without any doubt about what we are saying, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Kingsmills]

As we are both without any doubt about what we are saying, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Agreed. Could become rather tedious.

[12th Man]

Thats shocking to think that the 2 semi finals pooled together and the say 80% near full, cup final accrewed so little and the ticket prices werent exactly cheap.

So really what your saying is East end park or Tannadice could have potentially made the participating clubs more money than a money grabbing Easter Road. As far as Im aware every club has a shirt sponsor, so why cant the powers that be negotiate a price with someone to sponsor the cup, some money is better than no money.

Edited October 20, 2014 by 12th Man

[Kingsmills]

Thats shocking to think that the 2 semi finals pooled together and the say 80% near full, cup final accrewed so little and the ticket prices werent exactly cheap.

So really what your saying is East end park or Tannadice could have potentially made the participating clubs more money than a money grabbing Easter Road. As far as Im aware every club has a shirt sponsor, so why cant the powers that be negotiate a price with someone, some money is better than no money

It would be shocking if it was correct.

[mainstander]

money grabbing Easter Road.

They needed the cash to pay the TB compo.

[hislopsoffsideagain]

I read the report last night, and was surprised that our profit was so low given the cup run - some of the posts above give a very good explanation of why.

 

Is there a reason why our annual report doesn't break down costs and sources of income, so we don't know how much is coming in from sponsorship/gate receipts, or how much is going out in wages?  It's not nearly as detailed as reports from other clubs have been (Celtic's from a few weeks ago was about 70 pages long)

[rocky1]

The clubs turnover is below £5million so there is no legal requirement for the same detail you find at the likes of Celtic .

It will also be up to our accountants to produce this document

[Yngwie]

Is there a reason why our annual report doesn't break down costs and sources of income, so we don't know how much is coming in from sponsorship/gate receipts, or how much is going out in wages?  It's not nearly as detailed as reports from other clubs have been (Celtic's from a few weeks ago was about 70 pages long)

 

As a small company we aren't required to disclose very much information at all, whereas a stock market listed plc has a whole raft of additional requirements in their accounts.  There's actually nothing to stop ICT including the kind of additional info you suggest if the directors wanted to, but why would they? They will say it is commercially sensitive, for example there's nothing to be gained from publicising to our rivals what we spend on player wages. 

 

All that matters is that these figures are available to the relevant people at the club!

[hislopsoffsideagain]

 

Is there a reason why our annual report doesn't break down costs and sources of income, so we don't know how much is coming in from sponsorship/gate receipts, or how much is going out in wages?  It's not nearly as detailed as reports from other clubs have been (Celtic's from a few weeks ago was about 70 pages long)

 

As a small company we aren't required to disclose very much information at all, whereas a stock market listed plc has a whole raft of additional requirements in their accounts.  There's actually nothing to stop ICT including the kind of additional info you suggest if the directors wanted to, but why would they? They will say it is commercially sensitive, for example there's nothing to be gained from publicising to our rivals what we spend on player wages. 

 

All that matters is that these figures are available to the relevant people at the club!

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

 

The main reason for my interest is what CaleyD has alluded to already - that our cup run was worth very little cash to us because of the lack of sponsors and the amount of money paid to Hibs and Celtic for use of their stadia.  

 

If a well-run club which made a cup final can barely break even, what does that mean for the other clubs?  We already know that Motherwell are cutting costs like crazy...

[Kingsmills]

 

 

Is there a reason why our annual report doesn't break down costs and sources of income, so we don't know how much is coming in from sponsorship/gate receipts, or how much is going out in wages?  It's not nearly as detailed as reports from other clubs have been (Celtic's from a few weeks ago was about 70 pages long)

 

As a small company we aren't required to disclose very much information at all, whereas a stock market listed plc has a whole raft of additional requirements in their accounts.  There's actually nothing to stop ICT including the kind of additional info you suggest if the directors wanted to, but why would they? They will say it is commercially sensitive, for example there's nothing to be gained from publicising to our rivals what we spend on player wages. 

 

All that matters is that these figures are available to the relevant people at the club!

 

 

Thanks for the explanation. Makes sense.

 

The main reason for my interest is what CaleyD has alluded to already - that our cup run was worth very little cash to us because of the lack of sponsors and the amount of money paid to Hibs and Celtic for use of their stadia.  

 

If a well-run club which made a cup final can barely break even, what does that mean for the other clubs?  We already know that Motherwell are cutting costs like crazy...

 

Except that the cup run was worth a good deal more than the less than six figures that Caley D suggests. Do you really think that the competing clubs each received only 10% of the revenue from the final alone ? The true figure is 37 1/2 % which, even after netting off stewarding and ground rental is more than quarter of a million with another six figure sum to be added for the semi and earlier rounds.