Overseas Ex-Pats Frozen Pensions

[Scarlet Pimple]

At that time this topic was explored in considerable detail under the thread started about the Referendum campaign recently by Oddquine.
 
At that time I explained the reasons for the freezing of pensions  of overseas ex pats who now live in
ex-commonwealth countries and the lack of response from the British  Government.
The figures I quoted were challenged by some members , one stating that no such National Insurance Fund existed in Britain containing any kind of large monetary sum that could have been used to redress the frozen pension issue. 
There was also a challenge made to the effect that the reason for the non-uprating must be because there is a reciprocal agreement in place between these ex pat countries and the British Treasury.
My explanation was that this did not exist at all and any Agreement reached in the past between respective Governments was, in any case, a taxation one only. e.g I do not pay tax in Britain on my pension but I pay tax in Canada upon it when I receive it.
 
The following Article in the most recent newsletter received from the Canadian Alliance of British Pensioners  refers to this National Insurance fund and the accumulated sum of 19 BILLION pounds currently resting in there. It also explains  that the amount required to redress this situation is only 599 MILLION pounds.
  So, I hope that this  satisfies the sceptics that there is indeed:
1. An enormous sum resting in this National Insurance Fund.
2. That there is no Reciprocal Agreement by the U.K. with any Ex Commonwealth country relating to this.
Here is the small article in full copied from the newsletter :

 

Ever-vigilant POP protesters
The Parity or Poverty (POP) Group continues to live up to
its commitment to being a ‘rapid response team’ on behalf
of frozen pensioners, speedily correcting any inaccurate
comments on pension freezing by politicians, the media or
bureaucrats.
When it recently received a letter from a British MP that
contained all-too-familiar inaccurate information – a rehash of disingenuous
statements that the Department for Work and Pensions
has been churning out for years – the group’s members found
themselves having to yet again remind a parliamentarian of the
following facts, facts which all of us may find helpful to keep in
mind as we write to UK MPs in the prelude to the 2015 election:
• Reciprocal agreements are irrelevant to discussions on frozen
pensions, as the UK Government has the authority to
implement uprating unilaterally any time it wants.
• The cost of uprating pensions today (£590 million) is
affordable, given the £19 billion-plus surplus in the National
Insurance Fund.
• There is an appetite for change among politicians, as
evidenced by the setting up of the All-Party Parliamentary
Group (APPG) on Frozen British Pensions and the support
given to various Early Day Motions.
• The European Court of Human Rights’ far-from-unanimous
ruling proclaimed state pension uprating to be a domestic
political decision. It passed no judgment on the morality
of the policy, however even ministers of the crown have
acknowledged that it is illogical and an anomaly.
Our gratitude goes out to the POP Group, which certainly packs
a punch well beyond its size. Its seven tireless members (ranging
in age from 66 to 89) in Canada and Turkey* steadfastly refuse to
let anyone get away with issuing statements that are not factual,
lucid and principled.
* The member in Turkey is unfrozen personally, but still campaigns!

 

[Oddquine]

Was interested in your post, Scarlet,and did a bit of digging because I'm not overly inclined to look into how Westminster works unless it specifically has a deleterious effect on Scotland. Started in Wiki and followed links given..and from what I can see..............

Theoretically, the Money in the NI fund for England, Scotland and Wales is not available for general expenditure, as taxes are, for the Government. It is only meant to be used for straight benefits, and not the means tested stuff....but a percentage of NI doesn't go into the NI Fund, but is side tracked into the NHS.....though not sure if it is for the NHS over the whole UK , or just England.

I am, of course, adding my own comments to what it, and the links it refers to say...starting with, and I quote "Each year there is a surplus of the order of £2 billion".  In 2005/6 it was claimed to have a surplus of £34 billion and the forecast was that, by 2012, the surplus would be  over £114.7 billion. However, the Government Actuary Department has now found that they were talking out of their bahookies, much like most UK politicians do, and it is now forecast to be £30 billion by 2016.

That surplus is loaned to the Government.....quelle surprise! Would you believe we actually have National Debt Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt, who have investment accounts they use to juggle money around to try and make the economic future of the UK look less bad. They currently control....... Court Funds Investment Account, Crown Estate (dormant), Insolvency Services Investment Account, National Insurance Fund Investment Account, National Lottery Distribution Fund Investment Account, Northern Ireland Courts & Tribunals Service Investment Account, Northern Ireland National Insurance Fund Investment Account, Olympic Lottery Distribution Fund Investment Account.

The Commissioners are any THREE of nine out of The Chancellor of the Exchequer(God help us....Osborne, with a degree in Modern History(which has taught him nothing), a one time freelance journalist on a diary column in a local paper, and from then a researcher/special adviser in Westminster!), The Governor and Deputy Governors of the Bank of England(who didn't notice us heading towards a banking crisis, though I assume they know a wee bit about how an economy should work, even though they didn't notice it wasn't working), The Speaker of the House of Commons(and Bercow's qualifications are what, bar Conservative Students Federation, a degree in Government, Merchant Banking and lobbying Parliament?)The Master of the Rolls (the second/third most senior judge in England and Wales.so we can asssume he has a law degree), The Accountant General of the Senior Courts (who I can't find, but is likely a lawyer who can write, add and subtract, so is in charge of administration) and The Lord Chief Justice....who is obviously a lawyer by education and practice.

Day to day running is in the hands of the Civil Service, and On the comparatively rare occasions when it is necessary for a fundamental policy matter to be put to the Commissioners for a decision it is referred to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Governor and the Deputy Governors of the Bank of England, who together constitute a quorum and are sometimes referred to as the "active" Commissioners. In practice the only references made to them are when it is necessary to make formal appointments, for example of Attorneys at the Bank of England and of the Comptroller General and the Assistant Comptroller.

According to the CRND, they control, over all accounts, around £35 billion in assets, the biggest of which are the National Insurance Fund Investment Account, the National Lottery Distribution Fund Investment Account and the Court Funds Investment Account. The CRND website is quite interesting.

Anyhow, as at 28th November 2014, the total in all investment funds are £22,279,000,000, of which the NI fund has £16.651,000,000. The CRND are meant to keep about £8 billion liquid (around 2 months contribution income). In the view of the UK Government, which, at the time of their decision on no-upgrading had no obligation to consider human rights/fairness, and didn't until they joined the EU, (which didn't force them to think about anyone outside the EU countries), they really needed every penny they could get together to  fulfill the Welfare state obligations for a growing and aging population and pay their own salaries and expenses as big businesses had started to learn how to spot the Government loopholes in tax laws, and avoid paying tax at all.

 

Given that NI is also meant to pay for the NHS, and what goes into the NI fund is net of that part of the income.....seems to me that, by living overseas, you are saving the UK a fair chunk of NHS costs, as the older we get, the more we cost in health services. If it is saving money they are about....possibly cheaper to pay pension at the current rate, and then old folkies could emigrate to live with family overseas and not cost the NHS, and the Welfare State in general, the cost of keeping them alive. The pension cost is ameliorated a bit by the low death age in NuLabour controlled areas of Glasgow where people are dying before getting to pension age and therefore subsidising those of us who live much longer, such as those in the South of England.

 

At the rate pension age is increasing, I think the Government is hoping we all die before we get there.....and maybe then they will be able to "afford" to pay all ex-pats the same pension.  But worry not, Scarlet.because the UK is heading towards the point where they can't afford the state pensions for those of us in the UK, far less those of you who have been shafted for years because you don't live in the countries the UK does upgrade for..which includes Israel, the USA, Turkey, Switzerland and various others (but no Commonwealth countries).  In thirty years, our pensions will be frozen as well!

 

The Scottish edition of the Express, which in April 2014 was headlining " Pensions Safer within the UK" as a reason to vote NO,  the other day was headlining "Death of the State Pension". (but we've already voted NO, so honesty isn't a problem in the Scottish media any more).   I assume all the over 60's who voted NO, expect to be dead before it becomes a problem for them.....and are happy to leave their children to worry, so they don't have to. But then, their children, by that stage may not live long enough to reach retirement age at all, and have to work until they drop dead.  
 

Edited December 6, 2014 by Oddquine

[Alex MacLeod]

Scarlett I'm sure the original conversation was about you expecting increases in the pension you already recieve. I dont think funds set aside for frozen pensions was part of that topic. Frozen pensions are just that. They are pension funds that have been frozen until the intended recipient makes a claim. That fund covers the pension rights of some 5 million people who emigrated in last twenty years as well as all those who left previous to that who are still to reach pension age. I dont doubt for a minute that there is a frozen fund. There has to be for those emigree's who have paid into it so they can claim their entitlement. An entitlement based on contributions paid.

 

There is no pot for UK citizens. Pensions for residents in UK are paid out of welfare fund. NI contributions are supposed to go to health and welfare but in reality thats not the case. If it were there would be a serious deficit. State benefits, pensions, care of elderly and support and care for mentally impaired, health services as well as care of interned persons costs way beyond what is collected in NI contributions. Much of that has come about because we're all living longer and because we have a larger population of those out of work and those in work who, because of low wages require state help to survive. The chancellor pools all taxation and sets budgets accordingly.

 

If all this money you seem to think  is lying around really is around then I'll be voting for the party that'll use it to help the 900,000 people who were forced to use one of the 400 Trussel Trust foodbanks in the country just to stay alive and the 185,000 people without homes.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Oddquine, I am always very impressed by the amount of effort you put into your research and the way in which you  seem to come up with accurate facts obtained from Statistics or Government papers or sources. In other words, logical figures - with those relating to frozen pensions being supportive of my previous claims and other statements, many of which have also simply been a reporting by me  on here of facts obtained from similar sources.

 

The Government-sponsored White Paper you found for me in April 2014, which traced the origins and subsequent developments in the Government theories and excuses for non-uprating  pensions, was sent on by me to the Head office of our organization, The Canadian Alliance of Britsih pensioners, who blithely told me that they had it on file already and it had been in the hands of their solicitors for some time. Meaning that they and their hired legal help were on the ball and knew the facts intimately.

So, when they quote figures in their newsletter, that goes out to at least 10,000 ex pats, then you can be assured that they have done their research very thoroughly on this and their facts in print are very accurate. 

And you are absolutely correct about  the fact that because we live outside the U K and don't consume their resources then we are  also saving them bundles of money. This has been a new and recent argument, backed up by figures,  that the CABP has been putting to the Government which, from all accounts, has stirred the pot quite a bit and they seem to be intrigued enough to agree to at least consider the figures submitted to them by us. 

 

Alex, I must confess I had some head scratching to do to understand some of your statements.:

Opening paragraph:- I was not aware that the British Government had set aside any funds for frozen pensions or for the benefit of frozen pensioners. Being as cash strapped as we all know they have been, and still are, this would surely never have entered their minds since they obviously feel that their "no upratings for these guys EVER " policy will always stand the test of time and   also be in place for EVER. 

The argument you put forward about the funds put aside to meet their obligations to pay future pensions as people retire is stretching incredulity to the limit. Frankly they will never  be persuaded to use any part of any such slush fund to help any pensioner that emigrates overseas to an ex-Commonwealth country. Like all Governments, including Canadian, their first priority is to use the available funds to make their Balance Sheet look good, then become re-elected next time around and not to think of the people who put them in power to enjoy their high salaries and privileged life-style etc.

It is also well-known, thanks to Oddquine, that they move funds between funds of different names to suit their purposes. That's an old banking con-game that is also very dangerous. Robbing Peter to pay Paul can only be sustained  for short periods of time before the whole house of cards falls down.

 

I also paid-in at the then current rates for contributions but if I ever earned an "ENTITLEMENT" for my future retirement, as you put it, then where is that getting me now? The pensions of ex pat U.S citizens or those in Germany or Swahili land are regularly  uprated thus proving that THEy got what they are entitled to as ex Pats but they did not pay-in to the fund any greater contribution amounts than we did. Nor do they contribute anything to the British economy which is one of the planks of some folks who seem to resent ex pats crying out for parity., conveniently forgetting that the only reason we in ex Commonwealth countries don't get uprated is simply because there are more of us domiciled in the latter areas than in the former--meaning more funds left in the pockets of your U K Governments than if they uprated the pensions of all ex pats instead of the  greeater number living in these Ex-Commonwelath countries. Neat trick eh....... ''We do it because we can, old boy"  type of thing .

   

Whatever the Government does with that money internally in Britain is entirely up to them , and over which we  ex-pats have little control . They are going to do it anyway regardless of how people squeal at the unfairness so your point is what? That's just the way Governments operate in order to get themselves out of the hole of  irresponsible spending, ballooning deficits and  looming crises. And you are probably right about the "NO POT" claim. Why? Because what has happened is that the control and expenditure of Government finances have just GONE TO POT.

 

As for your last paragraph, er.. Alex.. are you still unaware that there is not just one fund but many, many others.  I saw a list recently but don't have it to hand.  And, as stated above, all interchangeable depending on the current needs of the reigning Federal Government.