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House of Lords reform


Laurence

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It was mentioned in another part of this forum that as a life long socialist I should be against the House Of Lords

 

In essence I am

 

I should like to clarify that I am in favour of a second chamber of sorts. For devolved governments as well as the UK parliament.

 

Since the days of the Liberal P.M. David Lloyd George when he couldn't get his finance bill passed by the 2nd chamber , Its role has been a bone of contention throughout the times since then

The Liberals had a policy to make over 100 peers overnight to change the balance of power. The House of Lords backed down and budgets are passed now on the nod so to speak

 

There was also the political scandal of people buying peerages for donations to  certain political groupings,

.If you had  enough cash you could become a Duke my Dad told me

 

Labour governments from time to time have had a serious problem getting bills through because of rejection by the "upper chamber"  

In modern times its power has been greatly restricted, only certain peers are allowed to attend.

Certain legal measures and  established church matters are dealt with there. Many of the people there are former politicians  who have spent a life time in public service and still have a lot to offer many have great wisdom in matters of state which is good for the country they can speak without fear or favour, and the worry of  going back to the electorate.

So when it comes down to reform it has to be replaced with something better.

The conservative party still   have control by the very nature of the beast being for the privileged  classes. 

 

Take America which  has a case in point they have  Congress and a Senate and a supreme court and an elected president . They also have state parliaments and state governors, and different tax regimes and what not  in each state.

 

In Ireland there is something similar two houses  topped off with a president.

 

Germany also have a complicated federal system and an upper house I am told. I haven't the time to research the nuts and bolts but you get the general idea.

 

So what do we in the UK do to have a second or so called upper chamber  that would suit everybody?. If it is to be elected it must be given power. To make amend or change laws.

 

If not elected there's the rub,

What would its function be?  There is no real constitution in Britain like there is in France or the USA , Law is not codified especially in England  Scots law goes back into history previous to the formation of the Union but/and  I think it has a codified base similar to France but I am totally unsure on that aspect

 

In any event all appeals ( after High Court rulings)  at the moment at the highest level are dealt with by The House of Lords a function of great seriousness that cannot be readily abandoned. Another function of the House of Lords is to keep some sanity about measures put forward by the House of Commons; at the moment  there is a move to leave the  Human rights court in Europe . The House of Lords I am sure will have something to say on that.

 

To be dead against a second chamber because it is not elected is simplistic. I am not sure why the Nationalists do not have members in the upper chamber but it won't be long off. If they want to of course.  There have been Nationalists  from other parts of the Union Gerry Fitt and John Hulme  come to mind  I think they had peerages.

 

With regard to the Privy council that is principally an organisation to  give as its name implies private advice to the monarch I suppose these days is just a ceremonial  carry on that no one is particularly worried  about.

 

There is no simple answer to the upper house problem, you could say "if it aint broke don't fix it."

 

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Laurence, just a response,

 

There is no simple answer to the upper house problem, you could say "if it aint broke don't fix it."

 

It aint broke............its totally fecked!

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  • 2 weeks later...

Scrap it. We dont need a second chamber and we certainly dont need the cost of running such. The people elected to run the country should be the only ones accountable and not a battery of aged, uninterested, so called, Peers taking a lot of payment for falling asleep in chamber.

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Actually, and unusually, I agree with Laurence, a second or reviewing chamber is probably desirable but not the archaic and utterly undemocratic House of Lords we have now.  

I disagree that the devolved legislatures require the expense and bureaucracy of a second chamber as yet but when Scotland, as is inevitable, achieves independence, provision for an elected senate of some sort should be written into the constitution.

In the meantime, The Lords, anachronistic and undemocratic as it is, acts as some sort of check on this rabid right wing executive imposing measures that even Thatcher balked at.

 

 

 

 

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It was announced today that the Parliament buildings are in need of very major refurbishment.  If they abolished the House of Lords then they could sort that end of the building and then the House of Commons could move in there whilst the other end was sorted.

I agree that the House of Lords as currently constituted is totally unfit for purpose.  But we do actually need some kind of second chamber to scrutinise things.  The danger of an entirely elected 2nd house is that if both houses are of the same persuasion there is not enough scrutiny whilst if they are different, things get blocked.  Most MPs know precious little about most of the things they are debating so maybe what is needed is greater input from people with a detailed professional knowledge of the issues under discussion.  But no system is perfect - if it was, we'd all be doing it.

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It was announced today that the Parliament buildings are in need of very major refurbishment.  If they abolished the House of Lords then they could sort that end of the building and then the House of Commons could move in there whilst the other end was sorted.

I agree that the House of Lords as currently constituted is totally unfit for purpose.  But we do actually need some kind of second chamber to scrutinise things.  The danger of an entirely elected 2nd house is that if both houses are of the same persuasion there is not enough scrutiny whilst if they are different, things get blocked.  Most MPs know precious little about most of the things they are debating so maybe what is needed is greater input from people with a detailed professional knowledge of the issues under discussion.  But no system is perfect - if it was, we'd all be doing it.

The one problem is that most Lords are ex MP's or people who lived very sheltered out of touch with reality lifestyles so know precious little about most things. The current perliament does have a system of using professionals to held with what they dont know about. Its the committee system.

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I find all the above comments to be well thought out and the basis for debate,

I sometimes wonder how  many times I have changed my mind on this aspect over the many years of my life.

I suspect their is room for a "think tank",as such, -  the name ( House of Lords",  gives rise to what in France was named  "Bastille Day", , I don't suppose Alex would get out the dreaded blade to see off the "Aristos", but I wouldn't put it passed him. The knitting needles and all.

Maybe a change of name would be appropriate, ,  On a historical basis from an English point of view it was the Magna Carta  which the Lords challenged the monarch with.

It was their Lordships however who  lost the American colonies, ( Lord North )  after being warned by the commoner William Pitt.  "There's the Rub".

 

 

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