DoofersDad

The Holyrood Election thread

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1 hour ago, ed said:

This blame and grievance culture from the Nationalists has to stop.  I realise that it won't, because history tells us that Nationalists always win votes / gain power by blaming others.  They tell us we need them in order to end austerity.  Very similar to another well known but now defunct Nationalist Party who told the people of their country that they need them to end the economic stagnation.  Of course, if we need them, then there's ALWAYS a group of people who we really really don't need.  In this case, it's the English, to be specific it's middle class English they seem to despise.  They really do despise anyone who votes Conservatives.  The hatred and venom from Nicola Sturgeon when she uses the word 'Tory' is menacing.  Lots of codes are used in order to seem not racist / bigoted.  'English' is replaced with 'Westminster' or 'London'.  

 

Not all of us are fooled though.

You are spot on Ed. Excellent post. The cultivation of perceived grievances is standard Nationalist practice wherever you go - whether it's austerity blamed on the English (aka Westminster) and the Tories.... or defeat in World War 1 and the Depression blamed on the Jews and the Communists.

There are plenty of other disturbing parallels such as the Sturm Macteilung roaming Scotland's streets and the Cybernats polluting the ether at referendum time, the burning of literature they don't like, the boycotting of businesses they don't like (for Finkelstein read Tunnock), the diktat against believing or stating anything outwith party dogma, attempts to render Party and State indistinguishable, bullies in the Reichstag and the 53.5 members of the Westminster Ajockalypse squad, the conflation of national and party emblems..... and I wonder who will win the race between the Reverend Whinge Over Skintland and The National to become the new Volkischer Beobachter?

Oh yes, and the Germans also came to regret bitterly the way they had voted in droves in 1933 - so watch this space.

Strangely, though, there's one parallel which defeats me - I just can't think of an equivalent of the gormless public school muppet who is a shoe in to be re-elected by the discerning nationalists of Inverness:lol:

 

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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21 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

.

Strangely, though, there's one parallel which defeats me - I just can't think of an equivalent of the gormless public school muppet who is a shoe in to be re-elected by the discerning nationalists of Inverness:lol:

 

 

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On 31/03/2016 at 8:42 PM, ed said:

This blame and grievance culture from the Nationalists has to stop.  I realise that it won't, because history tells us that Nationalists always win votes / gain power by blaming others.  They tell us we need them in order to end austerity.  Very similar to another well known but now defunct Nationalist Party who told the people of their country that they need them to end the economic stagnation.  Of course, if we need them, then there's ALWAYS a group of people who we really really don't need.  In this case, it's the English, to be specific it's middle class English they seem to despise.  They really do despise anyone who votes Conservatives.  The hatred and venom from Nicola Sturgeon when she uses the word 'Tory' is menacing.  Lots of codes are used in order to seem not racist / bigoted.  'English' is replaced with 'Westminster' or 'London'.  

 

Not all of us are fooled though.

This is a really important point and those inclined to vote for the Nationalists would do well to think about this.  The SNP have set up the Tories as the people to despise and Sturgeon misses no opportunity to direct her vitriol at them.  But the interesting thing is that when you analyse specific key issues, you will find that the Tories are usually delivering better on those areas of policy than the SNP.  In particular, it is "Tory austerity" that Sturgeon targets.  For instance, she condemns the Labour and Lib Dem proposals for income tax rises by saying that she will not have the low paid paying for "Tory Austerity".  But actually, that is precisely what she is doing and, to make matters worse, she adds in some SNP austerity (and blames it on the Tories of course).  Let's look at a few examples.

Going back to the referendum campaign, the SNP claimed that we needed independence to protect the NHS from Tory cuts and privatisation.  The reality was that despite a bigger sum per head of population being available to spend on public services in Scotland, the Tories had increased funding for the NHS in England in the previous few years by more than the SNP had in Scotland.  Meanwhile, the SNP was continuing to contract significant aspects of the NHS in Scotland to the private sector.  Margaret Lamont, the then Scottish Labour leader referred to that as the most disgraceful bit of electioneering she had ever come across.  Think on it - A Labour leading calling an attack on the Tory record on the NHS the most disgraceful bit of electioneering she had ever come across!  That's quite extraordinary and shows how bad it was!

Before the devolving of powers on Tax rates the SNP could do nothing on those - but they could influence Council Tax.  So they froze the Tax for 9 years.  The argument was that the poor are struggling enough already due to Tory austerity - but who suffers most from Council cuts? - the most vulnerable in our society of course.  And who would pay the most from increasing Council Tax? - in general, the better off.  This was SNP austerity pure and simple.

Now that they have the power to increase taxes, the SNP refuses to use those powers.  Who suffers most from their refusal to ask the better off to pay more tax?  - Those reliant on public services which will continue to be underfunded.  But as I said before, now that others are prepared to increase taxes the SNP know they have to raise more money from somewhere - so they pass the buck to the Councils and lift the freeze.  What this means is that instead of asking those with more money to pay more, they expect those with bigger houses to pay more.  But whilst those in bigger houses in general are better off, it is often not the case.  Many pensioners worked and saved hard for a nice house for retirement and are now asset rich but cash poor.  In many cases, pensioners only have their own pension following  bereavement.  Many are not in the best of health and the same goes for others who have yet to reach pensionable age but are not earning what they once did.  Many folk living in their relatively large family home no longer have enough income to pay any tax.  The reduction scheme for those on low incomes helps a bit but only to an extent.

Like the SNP, the Tories don't want to tax the rich, but they are proposing to introduce a graduate tax and to reintroduce prescription charges.  Predictably the Scottish Nasty Party weighs in and condemns these as an attack on students and the sick.  Again the truth is different.  While the SNP have slashed the number of bursaries for working class students, the Tory graduate tax would only be paid by graduates once they were in employment and earning a decent wage.  And unlike the SNP proposal for Council Tax hikes, prescription charges would not be paid by pensioners and others on low incomes, nor would they be paid by folk with certain chronic illness or other exempt groups.  Whilst a tax rise for higher income groups would be my preferred way of raising more revenue, the Tory option at least impacts less on the low paid, the elderly and other vulnerable groups than the SNP's passing the buck strategy does.

A final point is the SNP's pathetic policy relating to the personal allowance.  They say what the Tories are doing is not enough and have pledged to increase it to £12,750 by the end of their term in office in 2021.  In fact, that is just £250 more than Osborne has pledged for the end of the Tories' term in office in 2020.  In other words, what the SNP are proposing is to reduce the level of increase in the personal allowance to less than any of the annual increases being proposed by the Tories.  Credit where credit is due, the Tories have taken huge numbers of low income earners out of paying any tax at all.

The case for independence requires the people to feel aggrieved, to be put upon, to be made to feel poor and for vital public services to be under threat.  Above all, the case requires someone to blame for these ills.  So it is the Tories that are targeted.  But for all the anti-Tory vitriol, it can be seen that the Tories are actually doing more for the poor and the most vulnerable in Scotland than the SNP are.  The SNP choose to impose austerity on public services by restricting the amount of revenue they raise, and then when they do raise money, they choose not to raise it from that section of society who can best afford it.  If the Scottish people feel poor and put upon, and if they feel their public services are under threat then it is the SNP they should blame.  It really is time that those who have voted for the SNP woke up to the fact that the SNP is manipulating the people  in order to achieve a political goal.  They only care about that goal and not the people.

 

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8 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

But for all the anti-Tory vitriol, it can be seen that the Tories are actually doing more for the poor and the most vulnerable in Scotland than the SNP are.  .......... It really is time that those who have voted for the SNP woke up to the fact that the SNP is manipulating the people  in order to achieve a political goal. 

Here's something else in that vein. 

The evil Tories introduced the National Living Wage, giving a substantial pay rise for many Scots. On the day it was announced, Sturgeon said "it doesn't go far enough." But here's the truth - the SNP were NEVER going to introduce any such measure!  I was told that in person by a senior member of the Scottish government, one of the more sensible ones.  He said it really caught them by surprise, as whilst they would encourage firms to increase pay rates, they were not going to enforce any mandatory rise like the UK government did. So the Tories/Westminster did more for low wage Scots than the SNP would have done, but the SNP still make noise implying the opposite. I just wish more people could see through them.

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Where have all the Nats who used to be so vocal on here gone? Or is it just that policy for exercising devolved powers doesn't interest them since, in best party tradition, they are only concerned about a single issue?

I mean, even if they don't have any reasoned arguments to put forward, they could surely at least try the more familiar ground of vacuous sloganising.

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The evil monstrous austerity Tories have introduced a living wage.

The SNP have harped on about this for years.  Finally, a Conservative Government have introduced it, not the SNP.  

 

Only the SNP could try to turn this into a negative. 

 

Well done Conservatives.  

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Well done George Osborne.  It's time to vote for Ruth Davidsons Scottish Conservatives, for compassionate Conservatism sticking up for the working classes of Scotland.  No scroungers needed in this society.   

 

partylogo.jpg

At the last election, the British people backed us to finish the job we started and today, right across our country, millions of people will be going to work and earning more.

That’s because as well as continuing to create more jobs - more than 350,000 since the last election alone - those on the lowest incomes aged 25 and over will today earn the new National Living Wage - £7.20 an hour, by law. That means 1.3 million lower-paid workers will get a direct pay rise – the biggest jump in a minimum wage in any advanced economy since the financial crisis. The National Living Wage will increase each year, and by 2020 it is forecast to be £9 an hour.

And because we believe that people deserve to keep more of the money they earn, we’ve taken nearly 4 million of the lowest paid out of income tax since 2010. In my Budget last month, I cut taxes again for 31 million working people. It means that from April next year the amount you can earn before paying any income tax at all will increase to £11,500. A typical basic rate taxpayer will be paying over £1,000 a year less to the taxman than they were five years ago.

This is all part of a plan that is honouring our commitments to the British people to deliver a higher wage, lower welfare, lower tax country that finally lives within its means. It's a modern, compassionate Conservative government in action.

But in order to go on working through our plan, I need your help.

By donating to our campaign today you can help us spread our message to as many people as possible.

Thank you for your support.

georgeosbornesignature.jpg

George Osborne
Chancellor of the Exchequer

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4 hours ago, ed said:

Well done George Osborne.  It's time to vote for Ruth Davidsons Scottish Conservatives, for compassionate Conservatism sticking up for the working classes of Scotland.  No scroungers needed in this society.   

 

partylogo.jpg

At the last election, the British people backed us to finish the job we started and today, right across our country, millions of people will be going to work and earning more.

That’s because as well as continuing to create more jobs - more than 350,000 since the last election alone - those on the lowest incomes aged 25 and over will today earn the new National Living Wage - £7.20 an hour, by law. That means 1.3 million lower-paid workers will get a direct pay rise – the biggest jump in a minimum wage in any advanced economy since the financial crisis. The National Living Wage will increase each year, and by 2020 it is forecast to be £9 an hour.

And because we believe that people deserve to keep more of the money they earn, we’ve taken nearly 4 million of the lowest paid out of income tax since 2010. In my Budget last month, I cut taxes again for 31 million working people. It means that from April next year the amount you can earn before paying any income tax at all will increase to £11,500. A typical basic rate taxpayer will be paying over £1,000 a year less to the taxman than they were five years ago.

This is all part of a plan that is honouring our commitments to the British people to deliver a higher wage, lower welfare, lower tax country that finally lives within its means. It's a modern, compassionate Conservative government in action.

But in order to go on working through our plan, I need your help.

By donating to our campaign today you can help us spread our message to as many people as possible.

Thank you for your support.

georgeosbornesignature.jpg

George Osborne
Chancellor of the Exchequer

Woah!  Whilst I think Osborne clearly spells out that the Tories have done a huge amount for the very people the SNP have persuaded to despise them, I don't think I am inclined to vote for them.  Without a doubt, the Tories have put more money in the pockets of working people and have got more people back into work, and whilst that is great, it does come at a cost.  The Tories by nature are a low tax party and as a result they have less to spend on public services and infrastructure. (Which suits the SNP just fine)

I think we need to spend more on public services and infrastructure.  The necessary period of austerity would have been less painful if those best able to afford it had been asked by the Tories and the SNP to pay a bit more tax over the last few years.  Higher rates of income and more money for public services would certainly have given the SNP less to bleat about, although of course, now that the SNP have the opportunity to support public services by increasing income tax, they choose not to.  All part of the "keep the pain and blame going" strategy of the Scottish Nasty Party.

Whilst the Tories are clearly far more deserving of people's votes than the SNP,  I think I will probably vote for a party that is willing to build on the Tories' solid foundation and which has the guts to put taxes up.  It does, unfortunately, still look as though the SNP will have a massive victory.  Whilst I probably won't vote for the Conservatives, I do hope they get enough representation to regularly remind the Scottish people that the Westminster Tory Government has done far more for the people of Scotland than the SNP Government in Holyrood ever has.

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So refreshing to hear intelligent discussions on Scottish affairs! I'm afraid the Nats are no longer or are perhaps oblivious to sensible discussion. Can't wait until this one party state implodes as always happens when one party tries to steal the centre ground. The SNP are morphing into some kind of New Labour movement Sturgeon like Blair comes across as being untouchable and hero worshipped by her adoring legions she will however capitulate within the next 5 years and I for one will glad to see the back of her! 

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1 hour ago, Westhill1 said:

So refreshing to hear intelligent discussions on Scottish affairs! I'm afraid the Nats are no longer or are perhaps oblivious to sensible discussion. Can't wait until this one party state implodes as always happens when one party tries to steal the centre ground. The SNP are morphing into some kind of New Labour movement Sturgeon like Blair comes across as being untouchable and hero worshipped by her adoring legions she will however capitulate within the next 5 years and I for one will glad to see the back of her! 

For a one party state to survive, that party has to do one of two things.

* Create a dictatorship but, despite the several disturbing parallels I have already illustrated, this in practice is probably highly unlikely. OR

* Please most or all of the people all of the time. And this is the great "No Can Do". Westhill1 makes the very valid point about Blair and look what happened even to Churchill in 1945. So far the SNP's strategy has been to attract the votes of the great unwashed by promoting proletarian policies (or at least pretending to, but they couldn't actually give a toss about what to them is no more than ballot box fodder.) And, having wrapped that end of the market up at the expense of Labour they do indeed seem to be chasing the centre ground by, for instance, persisting with free and expensive university education for far too many people, declining to adopt the 50p tax rate although this has emerged as the most popular of all tax policies, paying lip service to their working class support through minimally freezing the 40% cut off as their only tax change etc etc. I also wonder what they will now do, having learned that increasing benefits isn't actually all that popular? Will they get tough on benefits and lose much of their current support or start dishing out all they have the powers to dish out and hence risk their move towards the middle ground?

In a democracy, it doesn't matter who you are, your time is always limited before you get dunted by the electorate. The SNP's challenge is to get that second referendum in at a time when the polls are at least showing a safe and totally unprecedented 60% yes. And that is a race against that £15bn and rising black hole, collapsing oil, painfully demonstrable domestic incompetence, SNP support steadily wakening up to the fact that they are being shafted etc etc.

Glad to see you on here Westhill1. But where have all the Nats gone? Why just restrict debate to "red dots" on certain posts? Where is Oddquine when you need her? :crazy:Or if it's not a vote about the "I-word" is she just not interested? On the other hand, maybe she's out somewhere canvassing on behalf of that former Loretto public schoolboy Feckless Fergus Ewing:laugh:

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Charles I use my freedom to express my opinion sparingly on this site if I'm already in agreement with whats been said......

However your right the lack of input from the dark side is alarming but also predictable as rational debate and not having 'control' of the debate seems to be unfamiliar territory for the Yessers! I'm hopeful that after another victory for the SNP at Holyrood and when the hysteria settles and when all the Nats have had their selfies with Sturgeon the wall will come tumbling down. Being all things to all people can only last so long eventually right minded people will come to their senses and will realise that they can actually have the best of both worlds and still be Scottish! Unfortunately, no give them there due there will always be a hard core of true independents 30% or so who will never give up the cause and fair play to the haggis bashers even if they are a deluded bunch.

One thing is for sure those good folk who voted NO in 2014 need to keep the faith in the interim as our opposition politicians of all spheres at the moment really are a confused bunch, maybe it's time for a new party to emerge and to challenge the centre ground lost to the Nats.....

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

 

 Where is Oddquine when you need her? :crazy:

I'm guessing she's been on that independence camp outside the Scottish Parliament!

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29 minutes ago, Yngwie said:

I'm guessing she's been on that independence camp outside the Scottish Parliament!

Good Lord! Are they still there? If they are, it speaks volumes for the generosity of our benefits system.

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Oddquine, just like me, is choosing not to debate with abusive little people like Mr Bannerman. Some of his comments are not about debate but just downright offensive.

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Alex, that is pathetic and not worthy of you.  For all Charles' flippancy or offensiveness (whatever you want to call it) he has actually made more reasoned and evidenced points in this thread than all the SNP supporting contributors put together.  In any case, if his posts are deemed to be offensive then, as you well know, there is a mechanism to warn and, if necessary, ban people from contributing to a particular thread.  Failing that, you can simply choose to ignore his posts.

Of course, just because you find Charles offensive is absolutely no reason not to engage in debate with others, particularly when some folk other than the usual suspects have recently joined the debate.  It really does smack of finding any excuse to avoid defending the indefensible.

And please don't include Oddquine in  your indignant little claim to the moral high ground.  It was Oddquine in the Referendum debate, you may recall, who posted that she sometimes wondered whether the independence movement would have achieved independence had they copied the Irish and killed for it.  Now that really is offensive.

Several serious points against the SNP and it's strategy and policy have been made on this thread which nobody has even tried to counter.  Unless you or anyone else can come on here and debate these points then the only conclusion I will draw is that you don't dispute the arguments made.

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On 3/31/2016 at 8:42 PM, ed said:

This blame and grievance culture from the Nationalists has to stop.  I realise that it won't, because history tells us that Nationalists always win votes / gain power by blaming others.  They tell us we need them in order to end austerity.  Very similar to another well known but now defunct Nationalist Party who told the people of their country that they need them to end the economic stagnation. Of course, if we need them, then there's ALWAYS a group of people who we really really don't need. 

 

On 4/4/2016 at 1:19 PM, ed said:

No scroungers needed in this society.   

 

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I was in the Crown area earlier, and I noticed two Conservative posters have been torn down.

Nationalist ones remain though (obviously).

 

Nationalists despise democracy.

 

 

Nationalists - Don't even bother with your "how do you know it was Nationalists?" BS.  It's a Nationalist trait.  Poster ripping, book burning Unionist hating Nationalists.

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9 hours ago, Alex MacLeod said:

Oddquine, just like me, is choosing not to debate with abusive little people like Mr Bannerman. Some of his comments are not about debate but just downright offensive.

I am perfectly entitled to be offensive about a party and a movement which I find offensive and which, by its actions over a long period of time, has provided plenty of evidence for that description. However, I prefer instead to class many of my observations on these threads as having the intention to ridicule or satirise, to which, again, my targets lay themselves wide open by much of what they do and say. Ridicule and satire, by the way, are very long established means of political comment. Private Eye, for instance, has been doing it far better and for far longer than I have! However, given the well known resistance which nationalists have to ridicule and criticism, despite their quality as targets for same, it hardly surprises me that what I say would simply be taken as "offensive". This comes out of the same stable of grandiose thinking as attempting to present the pointing out of the obvious drawbacks of separation as being "anti Scottish" or "talking Scotland down".

I have observed the political scene for long enough to remember the bunch of cranks that was the SNP of the 60s, who then jumped on the "It's Scotland's Oil" bandwagon and sold that hard for years to fabricate their electoral momentum of the 70s. I therefore find continence difficult when I see modern day nationalist apologists dismiss oil as "just a bonus", now that the backside has terminally fallen out of what was the cornerstone of their campaign for decades. It was at that stage in the 70s that straightforward crankiness, which is of course still alive and very well within the SNP, had an objectionable element of nastiness and arrogance mixed in with it. That is the combined ethos which still persists today, especially among the "Alex Salmond" wing of the party. Over the decades I have seen more than enough of the SNP to have become convinced many years ago that there is much which is offensive about it and the manner in which it operates. And I don't give a stuff about what the PC Serially Offended think if I refer back a few posts here to the several clear parallels I drew between Germany in the 1920s and 30s and the current modus operandi of the SNP.

I have never been particularly "Scotland" minded and the antics of the SNP have been in danger of turning me literally "anti Scottish" because, with that bunch about, I now find it embarrassing even to admit to being Scottish. In fact if asked my nationality, I now make a point of saying "British" whereas I previously also sometimes used to say "Scottish". Indeed, as time goes on, I find myself regretting more and more that Edward II was such a cr*p military commander because if he had won at Bannockburn we would have been completely spared all this referendum nonsense and all the rest. The Scottish Wars of Independence, after all, were merely the ordinary people being shoved in the front line by the big man with the blue and white face bellowing "Freedom!" and being told to die in order to decide which set of privileged despots oppressed them.

So there you go. I have no time whatsoever for any party which has simply come a couple of steps along the road from the ridiculous caucus of cranks with chips on their shoulders which set it in motion and which wants to break up the most successful political union in the history of the planet. I also have no hesitation in saying so, and if the nats see fit to find that "offensive".... well that's just a bonus!

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10 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

Alex, that is pathetic and not worthy of you.  For all Charles' flippancy or offensiveness (whatever you want to call it) he has actually made more reasoned and evidenced points in this thread than all the SNP supporting contributors put together.  In any case, if his posts are deemed to be offensive then, as you well know, there is a mechanism to warn and, if necessary, ban people from contributing to a particular thread.  Failing that, you can simply choose to ignore his posts.

Of course, just because you find Charles offensive is absolutely no reason not to engage in debate with others, particularly when some folk other than the usual suspects have recently joined the debate.  It really does smack of finding any excuse to avoid defending the indefensible.

And please don't include Oddquine in  your indignant little claim to the moral high ground.  It was Oddquine in the Referendum debate, you may recall, who posted that she sometimes wondered whether the independence movement would have achieved independence had they copied the Irish and killed for it.  Now that really is offensive.

Several serious points against the SNP and it's strategy and policy have been made on this thread which nobody has even tried to counter.  Unless you or anyone else can come on here and debate these points then the only conclusion I will draw is that you don't dispute the arguments made.

I did always take on board many of your views DD but when that idiot refers to me as one of the great unwashed then I take offence. Now I see you defend him. CB, in his last post has totally lost the plot. His is not a view of the political health of the modern country that is Scotland but an unhealthy hatred for one party. Much akin to the religious hatreds that have jeopardised our country for too long. 

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DD, just to put things in perspective 'the great unwashed' is the orange term for the Irish catholics and thats where I feel offended. I'm a Macleod. My family are from Harris yet because I support SNP policy I'm being tarred

 Charles I remember your words of apology outside the Gellions last year. What was it....I'm just winding up Oddquine....Sorry friend you are an idiot and a bigot and if this site wants to kick me out for being honest then so be it

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22 minutes ago, Alex MacLeod said:

DD, just to put things in perspective 'the great unwashed' is the orange term for the Irish catholics and thats where I feel offended. I'm a Macleod. My family are from Harris yet because I support SNP policy I'm being tarred

 Charles I remember your words of apology outside the Gellions last year. What was it....I'm just winding up Oddquine....Sorry friend you are an idiot and a bigot and if this site wants to kick me out for being honest then so be it

Try this definition which originates from the bigger world, furth of the unfortunately parochial constraints of Scotland

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=the+great+unwashed

Winding up Oddquine? Of course! And great sport it was too while it lasted. I wonder how things are going outside Holyrood? Never mind, in Alex we seem to have the new Oddquine :cheer01:who, give or take occupying the odd Post Office and shooting a few British soldiers, was at least pretty civil.

Apology???? Of course it wasn't!:lol:

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