Autumnal Aspirations

[12th Man]

2 hours ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

Aye there were about 100 behind the goal and another 10-20 on the side terraces

And the players are still supporting the merged club.

[12th Man]

5 hours ago, 12th Man said:

I remember a good away day. 

At Broadwood, v Clyde. 

And well done regarding better prices for coaches.

 

4 hours ago, CaleyCanary said:

That was a truly excellent away day...

Crowd stats are crucial - we need them for Gringo's NPL!!!!!

https://www.clydefc.co.uk/match/report/252/

Doesn't mention the away gate but it couldn't have been that far off a 50/50 split.

[ictfcsince94]

 

13 hours ago, ictfcsince94 said:

So are you saying that higher attendances DOESNT equate to an increase in income? 

12 hours ago, CaleyD said:

Not always.

assuming of course that the extra bums on seats are paying customers, then I dont understand? What am I missing? No-ones asking the club to hand out tickets for free to increase attendances, these would be the wrong type of people to have at the game anyway as they would likely add nothing to the atmosphere.

surely if our attendances were up towards the 6k average this would not only be beneficial from a ticket revenue stand point, but also would help to increase advertising revenue? attract 'better' players, due to the larger support? i dont know, i'm just guessing.

but i would say, i don't THINK it's all about cost...just the football landscape has changed dramatically since the 80's and substantially since our inception in the mid-90s. Priorities for people have changed, and the avid support that existed in the early days have 'aged' into the sweetie rustlers bemoaning our younger fans and our players alike.

the one problem that Inverness as a town AND a club is that people don't want to stay here.  The youngsters that are finally being brought up as ICT fans are likely to leave the town in their late teens to go to uni and most of them don't come back.

[CaleyD]

10 minutes ago, ictfcsince94 said:

 

assuming of course that the extra bums on seats are paying customers, then I dont understand? What am I missing? No-ones asking the club to hand out tickets for free to increase attendances, these would be the wrong type of people to have at the game anyway as they would likely add nothing to the atmosphere.

surely if our attendances were up towards the 6k average this would not only be beneficial from a ticket revenue stand point, but also would help to increase advertising revenue? attract 'better' players, due to the larger support? i dont know, i'm just guessing.

but i would say, i don't THINK it's all about cost...just the football landscape has changed dramatically since the 80's and substantially since our inception in the mid-90s. Priorities for people have changed, and the avid support that existed in the early days have 'aged' into the sweetie rustlers bemoaning our younger fans and our players alike.

the one problem that Inverness as a town AND a club is that people don't want to stay here.  The youngsters that are finally being brought up as ICT fans are likely to leave the town in their late teens to go to uni and most of them don't come back.

You are assuming extra numbers are paying when I clearly stated that those extra numbers aren't always paying...and gave an example.

Free tickets issued by ICTFC tend to be for kids (and all U12s now go free in the North Stand at all games).  As some of these would have previously been paying, then there is an immediate cost to the club with changing their policy as that income is no longer coming in.  The hope is that it encourages more U12s/Families to attend....and you then get income from the parents paying....then in the long term those U12s move up to paying categories and help generate additional revenue.

As I said before, some clubs have owners (and I'll name no names) who (allegedly) had a policy of dishing out hundreds of free season tickets to staff and then including those numbers in their attendance figures.  They have since changed that policy and now (allegedly) just print hundreds of free kids tickets and count them whether they are used or not.

There's so many different "initiatives" going on at different clubs who all operate in their own way that, as I said, you really can't garner too much meaningful information from an attendance figure and certainly not an income figure.....aside from all of the above, there's also no breakdown of what category of tickets make up the attendance.

Average attendances over a season also have to be looked at with some caution.  Having additional home matches against teams who bring larger supports (or not) can swing figures from one season to the next....so you need to keep that in mind when looking at figures year on year as well.

So yes....whilst you can make a general statement that increased attendances are good thing, you shouldn't automatically assume that there's any correlating financial benefit....certainly not in the short term.

The last time I looked at it, ICTFC's attendances as a percentage of population were a lot better than the majority of others in the league.....so that kinda knocks the "not a football city" argument on the head, along with a few of the other points being made.

That's not to say that I don't think attendances could be better and I do believe that there isn't as much of a connect between the city and the club as we might have had if the stadium was set up to be more of a hub which was used more regularly by the community for stuff other than football....it's that kind of activity that makes people feel a part of something and they then tend to take more ownership of, and pride in, it.

How you achieve that without any money and without threatening the finely balanced setup we have at present? I don't know.  Many people have had many ideas over the years, but I'm yet to see one which could realistically be implemented.  I have faith that opportunity will present itself at some point, we just have to be ready to jump on it when it does.

[ictfcsince94]

1 hour ago, CaleyD said:

So yes....whilst you can make a general statement that increased attendances are good thing, you shouldn't automatically assume that there's any correlating financial benefit....certainly not in the short term.

The last time I looked at it, ICTFC's attendances as a percentage of population were a lot better than the majority of others in the league.....so that kinda knocks the "not a football city" argument on the head, along with a few of the other points being made.

That's not to say that I don't think attendances could be better and I do believe that there isn't as much of a connect between the city and the club as we might have had if the stadium was set up to be more of a hub which was used more regularly by the community for stuff other than football....it's that kind of activity that makes people feel a part of something and they then tend to take more ownership of, and pride in, it.

How you achieve that without any money and without threatening the finely balanced setup we have at present? I don't know.  Many people have had many ideas over the years, but I'm yet to see one which could realistically be implemented.  I have faith that opportunity will present itself at some point, we just have to be ready to jump on it when it does.

Yes, I was making that assumption, i assumed attendance figures equated to people, like myself, paying to attend games.  I was, i suppose, naive to the intricacies of the manipulation some wee teams may be guilty of.

I'm of the opinion that the club are doing well with trying to ingratiate itself into the community; Hot Shots, along with the free U12's is great for the kids; embracing social media (both the club and the players) the fun day events at some of the 'less appealing' matches. It's all good, but it would seem that less people are interested in attending the fitba than in years gone by.

People have mentioned the location of the stadium being a problem, but the only way to improve that would be to build 'centrally' and the only place i can think of a suitable size in a more central location would be the Bught....even if the money was there, whats the chances of our incredibly forward thinking Council giving the go ahead for that?! not likely. anywhere else is as far, if not further, from the city centre as the TCS...

hopefully, if the lads keep putting on an entertaining show, then maybe, just maybe, more people will PAY to come and watch.... where did the other 13000 happy clappers go....

Edited September 28, 2016 by ictfcsince94

[CaleyD]

I don't like this "where did the other XXX thousand" people go thing.  I'm not a regular movie goer, but when a big blockbuster comes along I'm more likely to go see it....I don't go to the Shinty every week, but will go to a Camanachd Final or the Shinty Hurling International games (if football doesn't get in the way)....I never watch athletics, but will tune in for the Olympics.......don't watch NFL week to week, but rarely miss the Super Bowl.....you'll never see me in church unless it's the wedding or whatever of someone I know.

Just showing interest in the "big" events is something we all do in some aspect of our lives....you just have to hope that you hook a few when people make the effort to come to yours.

[Scotty]

19 hours ago, ictfcsince94 said:

 

 

Toronto FC fans have this one available in red or black for $10 !!!

its a bit of a thing over here because away support is virtually non-existent at games due to the distances involved so when TFC are not playing many fans will go to TFC II which plays in the USL or to other local games in what is a very active lower league system. There have been organised trips over the last 10 years to various 'local' rivals and the most "doable" away trips over here tend to be Montreal for the derby game (336 miles one way), and over the border in the USA ...  Pittsburgh (330 mi), Columbus (430 mi), Philadelphia (475 mi), New York (480 mi), Washington (500 mi) or Chicago (530 mi) .... the rest are pretty much out of reach without flying and even these ones really need you to stay overnight. I did Montreal one year and we left at 7AM for a 4PM kick off then returned around 2AM ... it was a very long day (and TFC lost).

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

You are getting soft Scotty - and advocating Red and feckin Black tops.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

 

Edited September 28, 2016 by Scotty
edit URL so it shows video on page

[Scotty]

for those who are too young .... The Polworth listed (and mispelled) is Liam's dad Ian .... The Christie is Charlie not Ryan and its Kevin Mann, not Bobby ! For good measure Danny McDonald, now back at the club comes on as a sub and Paul Cherry a future ICT cult figure is on the St Johnstone side !

memories ......  .... dont remember much about the replay other than not getting into the away end and having to go into the main stand. was somewhat inebriated that night as Bomber Godsman was passing around vodka soaked oranges on the bus down from the Muirtown. 

 

[IBM]

Happy days!  What a mudbath to play football on 

[Charles Bannerman]

1 hour ago, Scotty said:

for those who are too young .... The Polworth listed (and mispelled) is Liam's dad Ian .... The Christie is Charlie not Ryan and its Kevin Mann, not Bobby ! For good measure Danny McDonald, now back at the club comes on as a sub and Paul Cherry a future ICT cult figure is on the St Johnstone side !

memories ......  .... dont remember much about the replay other than not getting into the away end and having to go into the main stand. was somewhat inebriated that night as Bomber Godsman was passing around vodka soaked oranges on the bus down from the Muirtown. 

 

I often wonder, in an era before Elfin Safety extended its officious influence absolutely everywhere, how many were actually in there that day? February 1992 I think. Certainly the atmosphere was electric and all I could get out of John Beaton in my post-match interview (John was still "co" with Doc at that time) was a constant repetition of "typical Caley tradition"... that was all he could say.

And yes, Scotty makes another good point there - we have had two generations of Polworths and Christies over the last three decades or so, with the younger of the former and the elder of the latter still there while Danny has just made a return. And of course Tommy Cumming and Jimmy Falconer just go on for ever......

[Charles Bannerman]

12 minutes ago, IBM said:

Happy days!  What a mudbath to play football on 

You will probably also remember what was probably an even worse mudbath right at the beginning of 1996 when Tommy miraculously got the pitch into a playable referee-compatible state within 48 hours of the lifting of the prolonged freeze that previously had Inverness down at -20C. This allowed the Scottish Cup defeat of Livingston which led to the subsequent elimination on the road of "self subbed" Steve Archibald's East Fife ...then Stenhousemuir thanks to a masterpiece goal from Brian Thomson and hence onwards to Rangers at Tannadice.

[Charles Bannerman]

23 hours ago, ictfcsince94 said:

Above picture fairly contradicts Charles' assurances that only 2-300 would attend the HL games....

The only thing the "above picture", which is on the previous page along with two other instances of similarly disingenuous nonsense, does is to illustrate the fantasy world that some people are still living in.

The "above picture" isn't even of a Highland League game. It is actually of the Scottish Cup visit of St Johnstone to Telford Street early in 1992 which of course attracted a capacity crowd, but of the huge crowd, the huge majority were the glory hunters you always get at games like this. Similarly the photo below the post in question, which IHE doesn't discourage us from believing is also a HL match, is actually the 1984 cup encounter with Rangers which again attracted a capacity crowd for the same reasons. (This of course may be one of IHE's wind-ups, but the "RFC" on te visiting team's shirts is jus ta tiny giveaway)  Meanwhile, the swarms of fans walking past Howdens are those attending one or other of these one-off cup ties.... not a Highland League match where crowd numbers were dying on their feet by that time.

It does strike me that there have always been some from the former Caley side who have stubbornly harboured the delusion that that club was some kind of footballing superpower as opposed to the big fish they were in the little pond of the Highland League. This "Billy Big Time" delusion unfortunately tended to be prevalent among the Caley support and was not always to that club's advantage. Indeed it very nearly cost Inverness the opportunity of Scottish League football.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Charles Bannerman

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I have actually been in similar crowds - possibly bigger - when we played Elgin, Ross County, Cup Finals and even Huntly. "Glory Hunters" perhaps - but like our (ICT) major cup games they came from wide and afar. And feckin respect to them. The swarms of crowds going in the piccie was for a Caley v Thistle Derby. My post was not about Caley although we drew the bigger support. It was a bit of proof that Sneck could draw big crowds when successful as I tried to emphasise in the original post. Caley drew 4000+ in the Perth replay. The "greatest" atmosphere EVER as far as I am concerned. The hairs on the back of my neck still bristle at the thought. CB really has never understood the "real" story, the "real" feelings of the old Caley and Jags supporters.

[Charles Bannerman]

22 minutes ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

I have actually been in similar crowds - possibly bigger - when we played Elgin, Ross County, Cup Finals and even Huntly. "Glory Hunters" perhaps - but like our (ICT) major cup games they came from wide and afar. And feckin respect to them. The swarms of crowds going in the piccie was for a Caley v Thistle Derby. My post was not about Caley although we drew the bigger support. It was a bit of proof that Sneck could draw big crowds when successful as I tried to emphasise in the original post. Caley drew 4000+ in the Perth replay. The "greatest" atmosphere EVER as far as I am concerned. The hairs on the back of my neck still bristle at the thought. CB really has never understood the "real" story, the "real" feelings of the old Caley and Jags supporters.

Best of luck with your audition for the next Hovis advert.

[+DoofersDad]

Over the years the subject of what size crowds Caledonian and Thistle used to attract has come up several times.  What seems strange to me is that nobody seems to have any actual figures! Presumably there are records somewhere and attendance figures were published in newspapers and perhaps the programmes of the times.  I had a quick look on google and could find nothing.

I came to Inverness in 1975 and whilst I had no particular allegiance to any of the 3 Inverness clubs, I did attend occasional games of all 3 clubs.  My recollection is of of crowds of 3-400 if playing the likes of Keith but at least double that for County and Elgin or for a derby. A big cup game would draw considerably more in the same way that a cup semi-final or final in Glasgow attracts thousands more to watch ICT.    

Getting a crowd of 1000 plus in the compact stadium at Telford St would provide a good atmosphere which no doubt made it feel that there was a bigger crowd relative to the TCS (which seems to have been designed to suck any atmosphere away from the ground as quickly as possible).  But the truth of the matter is that despite any concerns we may have regarding crowd numbers at TCS now, average crowds are way above the levels in the old Highland League days.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't look back nostalgically to those days, but it does mean that we should embrace where we are and make the most of the significantly higher level of football we now have the opportunity of watching in Inverness.

 

[Charles Bannerman]

1 hour ago, DoofersDad said:

 But the truth of the matter is that despite any concerns we may have regarding crowd numbers at TCS now, average crowds are way above the levels in the old Highland League days.  

 

 

That doesn't mean we shouldn't look back nostalgically to those days, but it does mean that we should embrace where we are and make the most of the significantly higher level of football we now have the opportunity of watching in Inverness.

 

The first quoted sentence there is they key truth, but one which the Flat Earthers choose to ignore.... probably because it's far more difficult to perpetuate the myth that former fans stay away in their droves once it's shown that they were never there in droves in the first place.

And the second absolutely goes without saying (although I'm glad DD has said it!)

[ictfcsince94]

1 hour ago, DoofersDad said:

Over the years the subject of what size crowds Caledonian and Thistle used to attract has come up several times.  What seems strange to me is that nobody seems to have any actual figures! Presumably there are records somewhere and attendance figures were published in newspapers and perhaps the programmes of the times.  I had a quick look on google and could find nothing.

I came to Inverness in 1975 and whilst I had no particular allegiance to any of the 3 Inverness clubs, I did attend occasional games of all 3 clubs.  My recollection is of of crowds of 3-400 if playing the likes of Keith but at least double that for County and Elgin or for a derby. A big cup game would draw considerably more in the same way that a cup semi-final or final in Glasgow attracts thousands more to watch ICT.    

Getting a crowd of 1000 plus in the compact stadium at Telford St would provide a good atmosphere which no doubt made it feel that there was a bigger crowd relative to the TCS (which seems to have been designed to suck any atmosphere away from the ground as quickly as possible).  But the truth of the matter is that despite any concerns we may have regarding crowd numbers at TCS now, average crowds are way above the levels in the old Highland League days.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't look back nostalgically to those days, but it does mean that we should embrace where we are and make the most of the significantly higher level of football we now have the opportunity of watching in Inverness.

 

the question is, how do we attract more people to the ground?  games with higher attendances have a better atmosphere, generally, so the more people that attend, the more enjoyable experience for everyone.  it (should) also help to bolster the coiffers, which may open up other opportunities with regards to player budgets, merchandising, advertising streams etc

the stadium really doesnt help anything! but, without higher ticket sales and the finances that come with that, then i guess we're stuck with it! except of course should we attract a wealthy investor looking to write off some of his profits for tax purposes!  

[The Mantis]

15 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

I often wonder ... how many were actually in there that day? 

Why? It was set at a modest 5500, all-ticket. 1992, not 1952. If you had been in the Howden End you would have seen it wasn't even all that crowded. In fact, if you had ever been in any of the larger stadiums before the Ibrox disaster, instead of playing croquet or whatever it was you did back then, you would have filled your kecks 

[Charles Bannerman]

52 minutes ago, TheMantis said:

Why? It was set at a modest 5500, all-ticket. 1992, not 1952. If you had been in the Howden End you would have seen it wasn't even all that crowded. In fact, if you had ever been in any of the larger stadiums before the Ibrox disaster, instead of playing croquet or whatever it was you did back then, you would have filled your kecks 

Why? Because inside the ground it was so packed that the feeling was that more than the limit may have been allowed in. This was an era when a Scottish Cup tie at home to St Johnstone was still a huge novelty attracting hugely larger crowds than for Higjland League matches. Nowadays a similar factor operates, but with much larger numbers, but the comparison is between the Premiership and the new novelty of a Scottish Cup Final.

[Scotty]

24 minutes ago, Charles Bannerman said:

Why? Because inside the ground it was so packed that the feeling was that more than the limit may have been allowed in. This was an era when a Scottish Cup tie at home to St Johnstone was still a huge novelty attracting hugely larger crowds than for Higjland League matches. Nowadays a similar factor operates, but with much larger numbers, but the comparison is between the Premiership and the new novelty of a Scottish Cup Final.

I was in the Howden End that day, and remember this game well, and whilst Jeremy Corbyn might describe it as 'rammed', there was certainly adequate room in most areas. 

The closest TCS came to this was the cup game (replay?) against Dundee Utd I think it was in the early days when the stadium capacity of stand and terracing was somewhere around 6000. the stand was full and the terracing was also jammed ... we scored an injury time equaliser but I think we were beaten in extra time. 

[The Mantis]

30 minutes ago, Scotty said:

I was in the Howden End that day, and remember this game well, and whilst Jeremy Corbyn might describe it as 'rammed', there was certainly adequate room in most areas. 

But Tearlach wasn't in the Howden End but maintains the whole place was 'packed', and goes on to imply that some kind of fiddle happened.

So either extra tickets were printed (unlikely, since I still have mine and it's numbered, so the printers would have to be in on the scam too), or a cash gate was opened (which surely couldn't have gone unnoticed at the time, or if it did, would surely have come out anecdotally over the next quarter century amongst some of the fans or the people who have been namedropped above).

[old caley girl]

As someone who was involved in Caley at the time I can catagorically say there was no fraud! As Mantis says tickets were numbered and accounted for. It was different days no stewards taping off sections to control numbers standing in any particular area of ground this creating an illusion of "rammed" compared to terraces today. 

I remember the ST J physios wife took ill that day and they were shocked at how little medical staff were present at the match. Got a bit heated for a while with their mood not helped at us gaining a draw. Sorry this bit totally off topic!

 

[Charles Bannerman]

1 hour ago, TheMantis said:

But Tearlach wasn't in the Howden End but maintains the whole place was 'packed', and goes on to imply that some kind of fiddle happened.

Progressing, just after KO due to parking problems, right through the Howden End from the front gate to the stand where I was one of several sitting on the ground beside the dugout, gave a pretty good insight into how packed it was. So yes, I actually saw the Howden End in its entirety, and hence probably in more detail than most Howden Enders, which is why my recollection is so clear. I had no ticket (cue the usual carping at that) - I just turned up with....how many more extras with some similar need to get in? But the really big unknown was how many succeeded in "joopeen in", for instance over the unused gate between Howden End and stand. It would be unwise to attribute to HL days at Telford Street the same degree of security,sophistication of stewarding and crowd control as the Premiership-experienced modern TCS. It's also worth remembering that come the cup tie v Rangers just 4 years later, Telford Street was no longer considered adequate to host such a game, although Rangers had also visited in 1984.

Edited September 29, 2016 by Charles Bannerman