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Kingsmills

Indepencence Referendum 2018/2019

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All these points are meaningless

The bottom line is Scotland cannot afford to separate from the United Kingdom

end of

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1 hour ago, Laurence said:

All these points are meaningless

The bottom line is Scotland cannot afford to separate from the United Kingdom

end of

Perhaps you would enlighten us on why Scotland, uniquely among small  developed northern European nations, is incapable of managing our own affairs. 

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1 hour ago, Laurence said:

The bottom line is Scotland cannot afford to separate from the United Kingdom

No, that's not quite right. We could separate from the UK, it's just that we would have to live with worse public services and lower standards of living than we currently enjoy thanks to the phenomenal level of English taxpayers' money that they donate to us year after year. Anyone who says otherwise is ill informed or in denial.

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Well it's not a loan, we'll never have pay it back. What a great deal it is, don't you agree?!

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:laugh:

As is typical, you make no attempt to respond to the actual issue of how to maintain our superior public services when operating the biggest and most unsustainable deficit in the western world. Scotland is a complete basket case fiscally and the only solutions to that are very painful and unpleasant. That is the irrefutable truth here. Could you not even muster a "Nicola says it'll all somehow be fine"?

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DD

But it is not highly disruptive to the Brexit negotiations to  have a General Election a month after the local council elections, in order that May can avoid the possible consequences of the CPS decision on the electoral fraud cases and get her own party under control?  She had nine months after the referendum, while she was telling us there wasn't going to be a General Election, to get her house in order...but patently didn't bother......and we can guess why.....because the polls didn't give her enough of a lead over Labour to ensure an even bigger majority than she already has..  

Quite self evidently now is not the time to have an independence referendum....because that will remove Scottish resources from the UK to use to gain concessions in negotiations. If she thought she could claim the North Sea as English Waters, she'd not be particularly bothered. After all, she is nothing if not pragmatic.....given she went from being a Remainer to being a Brexiteer with alacrity when she realised  there was a PMship up for grabs.   

So the reason it is not the time for a Scottish referendum, but it is the time for a referendum involving the whole country...is because it would tie her hands in negotiations with the EU not to not be able to use the likes of Scotland's fishing grounds to get the odd concession or quid pro quo. She probably hopes that once the deal is made, it will be so long after the vote that the EU will forget what they used to make it.

The SG has never intended to have the referendum before it was clear in which way the negotiations were heading anyway.....which is why they were leaving the timing open until the negotiations were coming to a conclusion nearer the tail end of 2018...or if an extension to the negotiating time scale is agreed, maybe a bit longer.  The time for the independence referendum was never now.....the time for agreeing to have an independence referendum once the Brexit terms were clear was what was now.  The Edinburgh Agreement, after all, was signed two years before the actual referendum  with no specific date, just a rough timing as to the latest it could be held (and it made no promises as to never having another one within any timescale either, btw)

So it seems to me that, by the time there would be a referendum, it would be pretty clear how the negotiations were working out....and if we had it before the UK actually left the EU, we would not have as long to get back in...or at a push could join EFTA, thus continuing some level of connection with the EU instead of years in the wilderness. However not agreeing to have,a section 30 order through both Westminster and Holyrood and in place to be used when the time WAS right (a bit like May waiting until the polls made the time right fot her to have this GE now), means that Scotland would be out of the EU and, if May gets the stonking majority she expects....I'd be surprised if Holyrood won't get some of what small powers it possesses removed....or even gets abolished altogether.   Once Brexit is done and dusted...whenever May deems that to be...will Scotland be in a position to have another referendum. I'm not at all sure it will.

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On ‎19‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 0:25 PM, Oddquine said:

This Election is not about Scottish independence from the UK...or even really much to do with Brexit, as far as I can see.

This is an election to sort out the Tory party...not to sort out anything to do with the country. She's having it around the time the CPS is meant to report on who is going to be prosecuted(or not) over the election fraud accusations in at least one by-election and quite a few marginals in the 2015 GE.....because if up to 24 individual elections have to be rerun, she has more chance of losing her majority in England than she will in a full-scale UK General Election after a few weeks of UK wide doom and gloom forecasts for the economy if anybody but Tories get back in to negotiate Brexit.

It looks like the Tories are going to reselect each and every one of their MPs who are under investigation not just for any old crime but for the crime of election fraud. Contrast that with the SNP who have swiftly moved to deselect the two MPs in their camp under investigation despite the fact that one of them is likely to be fully exonerated before the poll actually takes place.

The Conservatives have few morals and absolutely no scruples. .A majority south of the border clearly want those sorts to be governing their country. A very clear majority of Scots do not. That is untenable  in the long run and will be a huge factor in bringing this increasingly unbalanced union to an end.

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Of course they will re-select them.....because if found guilty, they are talking about a one year jail sentence as a maximum, in anything I have read.  You have to get sentenced to over a year in jail  to automatically lose your seat and trigger a by-election.   Under a year, voters can petition to have their constituency MP removed if 10% of his/her electorate sign it...or the amusingly named "Commons Committee on Standards in Public Life" can decide, if a less than 12 month jail sentence was for a heinous enough crime that would warrant being removed, to do that. I think that any MP jailed for anything at all should be removing themselves as unfit to hold a responsible position in the Government of the country....but that would imply some measure of morality among our  ruling elite....and few of them do morality.. or empathy...or even basic thinking past the ends of their noses. 

Given prisoner's can't even vote...why should it be acceptable for prisoners to be MPs? 

I often wonder if that was the reason for Parliament deciding that it doesn't matter to the general public if their well paid representatives become jailbirds, thus making it impossible for them to do their jobs,  and then choosing a maximum  sentence length to coincide nicely with the worst that could happen if an MP was found guilty of election fraud? 

In an independent Scotland...let's not allow our legislators to write their own contracts of employment....we'll do it for them....something more on the lines of an employment contract in any business...where performances are expected to be at least adequate, and less than that gets you a warning to pull your socks up...and failure to improve means you get sacked...and one with a strict gross misconduct clause...with real penalties for transgressions. Keeping their basic salary, expenses and perks  might then concentrate MPs minds on more than just working out ways to get more money on the back of being MPs.

Edited by Oddquine
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6 hours ago, dougiedanger said:

Scottish independence voting intention: Yes: 51% No: 48% (Panelbase/Sunday Times / 30/04/17) #ScotRef

:smile:
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You forget, according to our Westminster betters, 'now is not the time'. Well, do you know what, it will be and sooner than they think !

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I Have told you all before

Do I have to repeat myself because you are nationalists that will accept separation at any price

Scotland has a small working population. The tax revenue is very low

The balance of payments deficit with England will be immense not to mention the rest of the world

Scotland can't rely on oil because it only takes one meeting with OPEC to increase production

Scotland exports whiskey, so what it probably imports more Coca Cola and other soft drinks before we get onto the other alcoholic  drinks like wine and such like all have to be paid for. Go in any store in Inverness and walk around identify products made in Scotland.  You will see that Scotland will be on its hands and knees within a year

The alternative is to take the money from the Uk treasury, laugh and carry on letting London do the worrying ,

I won't repeat myself again I think this is the 3rd time I have told you the rampant still fighting medieval battles ,

Just grow up.

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36 minutes ago, Laurence said:

I Have told you all before

Do I have to repeat myself because you are nationalists that will accept separation at any price

Scotland has a small working population. The tax revenue is very low

The balance of payments deficit with England will be immense not to mention the rest of the world

Scotland can't rely on oil because it only takes one meeting with OPEC to increase production

Scotland exports whiskey, so what it probably imports more Coca Cola and other soft drinks before we get onto the other alcoholic  drinks like wine and such like all have to be paid for. Go in any store in Inverness and walk around identify products made in Scotland.  You will see that Scotland will be on its hands and knees within a year

The alternative is to take the money from the Uk treasury, laugh and carry on letting London do the worrying ,

I won't repeat myself again I think this is the 3rd time I have told you the rampant still fighting medieval battles ,

Just grow up.

Laurence you can repeat until you are blue in the face if you want but I will not change my mind about independence, I will soon be 60 :smile:

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4 hours ago, Laurence said:

I Have told you all before

Do I have to repeat myself because you are nationalists that will accept separation at any price

Scotland has a small working population. The tax revenue is very low

The balance of payments deficit with England will be immense not to mention the rest of the world

Scotland can't rely on oil because it only takes one meeting with OPEC to increase production

Scotland exports whiskey, so what it probably imports more Coca Cola and other soft drinks before we get onto the other alcoholic  drinks like wine and such like all have to be paid for. Go in any store in Inverness and walk around identify products made in Scotland.  You will see that Scotland will be on its hands and knees within a year

The alternative is to take the money from the Uk treasury, laugh and carry on letting London do the worrying ,

I won't repeat myself again I think this is the 3rd time I have told you the rampant still fighting medieval battles ,

Just grow up.

Your ignorance knows no bounds. Scotland exports no WHISKEY. However, at over four billion pounds per annum, that is four thousand million pounds in case you are ignorant of that as well, WHISKY exports are far and away the United Kingdom's most lucrative export in the food and drink sector.

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On 01/04/2017 at 2:50 PM, DoofersDad said:

Oh, I don't know Dougal.  I would have thought that there were more people persuaded to vote for independence by the antics of those t*ssers than there are supporters of the Orange Order.

The SNP are on the decline while the DUP are now in the strongest position they have ever been in

Independence2 won't happen now well not in my lifetime, seems I was right regarding the Orange Order or of course it could just be a massive coincidence?

Dougal

 

 

 

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Well, Laurence I am all for expressing my opinion when deeply felt or held.

But if you ever were to speak to me like you have spoken to these other posters, regardless of what passionate views you hold on these, or any other issue,:redcard: I would be inclined to go get my blowtorch and roast your arse.

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Can we close this thread, now that indyref2 ain't gonna happen in the short or medium term?

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21 hours ago, Yngwie said:

Can we close this thread, now that indyref2 ain't gonna happen in the short or medium term?

Maybe people are taking the lead from Beaut House and are "reflecting" on whether to take this thread "off the table".:smile: Irrespective of its fate, apart from this post, I have no plans to return to it "within a generation". As I stated some time ago, I decided to withdraw because the unfortunately divisive nature of this subject was causing too many fractious exchanges with people whom I value and for whose CTO contributions I also have regard. Part of that may well have been my naturally satirical take on things and I certainly avoided the temptation of some kind of triumphalist return post-election. Instead, it has been far more fun winding up some of the complete numpties, Freedom-bellowers, out and out Cybernats and UDI-demanders you get on The National and The SNP Facebook pages. Although a bit like shooting fish in a barrel, that is genuine entertainment and it avoids confrontation with far more esteemed fellow contributors to CTO.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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So glad that this nonsense has been put to bed and we can get back to all that strong, stable government stuff, administered by highly capable, highly intelligent chaps who would never make a complete mess of the country and who know how to run things much betterer than those glaikit jocks.

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On 15/06/2017 at 10:36 PM, Yngwie said:

Can we close this thread, now that indyref2 ain't gonna happen in the short or medium term?

I think it could well be back on the table in a couple of years time, once the shape of the Brexit deal is clearer. 

Although it might also depend on how many more general elections we have had by then.

Here in England, people were compaining about 2 GEs and the EU referendum in successive years. Scotland has also had the indyref and the Holyrood election, so you must all be sick fed up of campaigning politicians. I feel that election fatigue must have played a large part in apparently reducing the appetite for indyref2.

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Every day ah'm glad we didn't hand over the reins to a bunch of nationalistic, xenophobic incompetents who would have ruined the economy, split the country apart, and ripped up our attachments to the rest of Europe and the world. That would have been a disaster.

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On 2017-6-17 at 8:53 AM, snorbens_caleyman said:

I think it could well be back on the table in a couple of years time, once the shape of the Brexit deal is clearer. 

Although it might also depend on how many more general elections we have had by then.

Here in England, people were compaining about 2 GEs and the EU referendum in successive years. Scotland has also had the indyref and the Holyrood election, so you must all be sick fed up of campaigning politicians. I feel that election fatigue must have played a large part in apparently reducing the appetite for indyref2.

I'd agree with that. Scotland has had some form of election/referendum every 5.2 months since September 2014 :ohmy:

David Mundell on Sunday Politics proved yet again that the Scottish Tories concentrate on the 'No to Indyref2/SNPBad'  rhetoric knowing they've got nothing else left to convince people to vote for them. 

As for Scottish Labour, well this about sums them up.....

 

 

DCmIyVFWAAAFKAa.jpg

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