givmeaccccc

Hospice shares

Recommended Posts

Now some good news at last. With Alan Savage, Dougie and Ian McGillivray buying a large chunk of shares it looks like we could be about to turn the corner. Dougie was one of the instrumental people during the formation of our club and is a football man through and through. Throughout the years that Dougie has been in exile Ian has kept up the family link with the club, regularly attending our games. Alan Savage is also a well known football fan, his only fault apparently is that he is a Man U fan!

I am sure that these men have not just purchased shares to lock them in their bed side cabinets. Really looking forward to these gents influencing the future of ICT.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Shorty said:

Purchasing the shares from the hospice doesn't put a single penny in the club's pocket.

Maybe not, but the board have confirmed that £500,000 is to be invested into the club, and it dosent take a genius to guess where that's coming from after this news 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We have some seriously good backers & professionals now and in the past also plus Tullochs contribution then and now.

Unfortunately its the same old story though that we are not getting enough fans.

Dundee Utd` family backers are probably nowhere near as well off as some of our contributors are or have been but

they`ve got the fan base to fall back on to generate the cash flow.

We`ve been very successful though, probably more so than for example Dun. Utd in the last 20 odd years and we`ve had an exciting journey.

We are still a young club, should we be almost compared to Livingston in club size and position in reality?

Its time now to regroup (again) and hopefully grow back in stature gradually. We did it before and can do it again.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, givmeaccccc said:

Now some good news at last. With Alan Savage, Dougie and Ian McGillivray buying a large chunk of shares it looks like we could be about to turn the corner. Dougie was one of the instrumental people during the formation of our club and is a football man through and through. Throughout the years that Dougie has been in exile Ian has kept up the family link with the club, regularly attending our games. Alan Savage is also a well known football fan, his only fault apparently is that he is a Man U fan!

I am sure that these men have not just purchased shares to lock them in their bed side cabinets. Really looking forward to these gents influencing the future of ICT.

 

For sure... might we see Grassa Bennett back to the club as DOF?   

  • Facepalm 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think that we've had such a terrible time that people want news to be good. In truth, this isn't 100% good or bad. It's good that new people and potentially new investment is coming in and they'll bring their own strengths and contacts.

Dougie MacGilvary was chairman when the club was formed but he was also running the club when it ran up significant debts. People bemoan David Sutherland and Tulloch now but they basically saved the club in the early 2000s. I remember MacGilvary opposing the investment that Tullochs made in the club at that time that started his exile. No-one could possibly argue that MacGilvary was right about that. 

Savage became involved in the mid 2000s and what he's remembered for is the Marius Niculae signing. Savage invested in shares to the value of Nicuale's first year wages and we had ourselves an international centre forward. Although Niculae was a top player it didn't end that well - the club got involved in a dispute with the player and we had to fight him into the Court of Arbitration for Sport over a payment he said was due. Savage left the board claiming time pressure with his business but it was generally seen at the time that Sutherland and Tullochs didn't like the Niculae scheme and Savages higher profile ideas.

in addition, people are talking about Grassa etc coming back. We can't keep going back to how things were in the past, we need to develop a plan for the future for how to succeed as a club. I appreciate that there isn't a big queue of people willing to put money into Caley but we need to have a forward thinking club rather than trying to recreate something. As well, we suffered the consequences last season of having a manager and a chairman joined at the hip. If we'd sacked Foran in January we'd have had a better chance to stay up,

So I'm in the fence regarding this development.

 

  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, ictchris said:

 

Dougie MacGilvary was chairman when the club was formed but he was also running the club when it ran up significant debts. People bemoan David Sutherland and Tulloch now but they basically saved the club in the early 2000s. I remember MacGilvary opposing the investment that Tullochs made in the club at that time that started his exile. No-one could possibly argue that MacGilvary was right about that. 

Savage became involved in the mid 2000s and what he's remembered for is the Marius Niculae signing. Savage invested in shares to the value of Nicuale's first year wages and we had ourselves an international centre forward. Although Niculae was a top player it didn't end that well - the club got involved in a dispute with the player and we had to fight him into the Court of Arbitration for Sport over a payment he said was due. Savage left the board claiming time pressure with his business but it was generally seen at the time that Sutherland and Tullochs didn't like the Niculae scheme and Savages higher profile ideas.

 

That's pretty well it, apart from the minor detail that Jock McDonald was the inaugural chairman for 15 months until May 1995 when he was succeeded by Dougie who was in office until February 2000. Irrespective of what people say about David Sutherland, without the Tulloch intervention of 2000-01 the club may well have gone bankrupt and without the Tulloch intervention of 2004-05 to provide the stands, goodness knows what its future in the SPL would have been. DFS once told me that Tulloch intervened to a total extent of £5.3M and this claim does stand up to the arithmetic.

One intriguing revelation has been that Tulloch are proposing to "repatriate" the main stadium as well as the N and S stands to the club. The main stadium was what was handed over initially to the ICT Charitable Trust in 2001 as a quid pro quo for spiriting away that £2M+ of debt but it seems that a sequence of complex deals led to ownership eventually passing to Tullochs, as the real quid pro quo for really having taken up that debt.

In his "pre-happy clappy period", before he found God on that legendary holiday to Damascus, Caley D used to give the club pelters on here over that deal, where Tullochs effectively paid off the debt.

As for Alan Savage, Companies House records that Orion hold 275189 (precisely captain!) shares in the club. This is presumably what it cost Orion to fund Niculae for the time he was here. This has now been highlighted by today's revelation that AS, DMG and IMG have gone 3 ways on the Hospice shares - a revelation which, in conjunction with DMG announcing a bid for two directors, is bound to spark speculation about a possible power struggle.

In that event, the biggest shareholding is the 729,500 of the ICT Charitable Trust. These are mainly or even entirely the original Tulloch uptake from the 2001 bailout which were donated to the Trust. The Trust is now effectively controlled by Muirfield Mills, who are currently also well represented on the Board. So add in Muirfield Mills' own 376,00 shares and they have a clout of 1.05 million. Against that, and with the 3 way split of the Hospice shares, Orion/"Savco" has 466,500 and the McGilvray family (inc earlier acquisitions) just over 487,000. So McGilvray + Orion/"Savco" comes to 0.954M. Then there are significant holdings such as Roddy Ross (170,000), George Fraser (51,000), David Sutherland (his personal shares - 50,000), David Cameron (100,000) and Graeme Bennett (29,000). Where their loyalties may end up isn't entirely clear (although in certain cases that WON'T be with McGil/Savco!!:lol:) and we also don't know who have acquired what we assume to be the 500,000 shares corresponding to the "new money" announced in yesterday's statement. This is all in relation to a total of 4.4M issued shares (the previous 3.9M plus the assumed new 500,000, but extendable to 5M) The total number of shareholders, many of them owning just a token 250 but others into the thousands, is around 530. As a result, any battle for control of Caley Thistle could become an interesting sequence of events involving a large number of fragmented parties.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And when it does, maybe someone could write a book about it! :lol:

  • Agree 1
  • Funny 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, in light of events of the last few days, the political cogs have obviously been whirring away for some time then!

I think most folk expected the reappearance of AS on the scene with the appointment of two ex-Orion employees at the club recently - were these appointments the proviso to AS getting involved again? Can we assume that he's the £500k investor - no doubt we'll find out shortly?

I'm undecided if these latest developments are a good or a bad thing, but, whatever happens, I hope it doesn't turn into a power struggle. It's on-the-park that needs everyone's full attention, boardroom battles would only serve as a distraction at this time IMO.

Very interesting to hear that the stands and stadium are being gifted back to the club. Does this mean that the club now has an asset? Albeit the land is leased (must be 75 years remaining?), could there be moves afoot? The stadium location is a prime site in Inverness and I'm sure there'd be no shortage of interested parties should the lease be touted for sale, or transferred in return for a new stadium. I'm dreaming here but there'd be nothing like the building of a new purpose-built, fit-for-purpose, stadium to reinvigorate the fanbase !!!..............a smaller version of Tynecastle would do very nicely thank you !! :wink:

I'm heartened by the last part of the Board Announcement - " Our goal is to be back in the Scottish Premiership playing great football and competing for honours.  The Board is committed to adopting a sustainable business model that makes the Club more resilient, that develops and mentors our internal talent and earns the trust of our supporters."  - I truly hope they can deliver !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And the power battle begins. As long as it makes us a better club I'm all for it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So who's this new Romanian international that's coming in then? :crazy:

 

I'd still like to see someone in a DoF role. Although maybe not Grassa. He's had his time. I've mentioned him before but I think CC would be quite suited to that role. He's got a long term connection to the club. An affinity with the club and lives locally. He'd be in for the long haul. He's articulate and intelligent. Has a good bond with fans. Has football knowledge. I'm not saying it has to be him but he ticks a lot of boxes for me.

We need someone who could combine a DoF/head of recruitment/head of youth development type role. Someone with a model and general oversight of the football side and scouting. Leave first team football to the first team manager. He still has final say on players. However the DoF is the one doing the graft of inviting players for trial. Collating scout reports etc. 

I think it's high time that the club developed a model of football business. A philosophy that generally dictates signings and youth development up to the first team. Hopefully the new board recognise this as the last few years have just been a continuous run of false starts in that regard. 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Council Juice said:

I'd still like to see someone in a DoF role. Although maybe not Grassa. He's had his time. I've mentioned him before but I think CC would be quite suited to that role. He's got a long term connection to the club. An affinity with the club and lives locally. He'd be in for the long haul. He's articulate and intelligent. Has a good bond with fans. Has football knowledge. I'm not saying it has to be him but he ticks a lot of boxes for me.

We need someone who could combine a DoF/head of recruitment/head of youth development type role. Someone with a model and general oversight of the football side and scouting. Leave first team football to the first team manager. He still has final say on players. However the DoF is the one doing the graft of inviting players for trial. Collating scout reports etc. 

I think it's high time that the club developed a model of football business. A philosophy that generally dictates signings and youth development up to the first team. Hopefully the new board recognise this as the last few years have just been a continuous run of false starts in that regard. 

We've appointed Danny MacDonald to that role.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, ictchris said:

We've appointed Danny MacDonald to that role.

Think Danny MacDonald's role is more on the business side of things, as opposed to a 'D of F' role? 

I wouldn't be unhappy to see CC in a 'D of F' type role..not sure if the finance is there though, but, long term, may be an option

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know Danny McDonald has been appointed General Manager so that the CEO role and this could be separated. I don't know if it's more a business side of things or entails the DoF role in the same type of way that Adriano Galliani did at Milan. :lol:

What I'd like to see is a model whereby one person links all sides of the football operation so that they work seamlessly with one another. Make ict an attractive place to develop young stars of the future and as a next step for emerging talent. A model also needs to be found to capitalise on successful players who are departing. Far too many star players have left for nothing making it extremely hard to replace them adequately. 

Hopefully with different voices on the board these things can be looked into. 

  • Confused 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Shorty said:

Purchasing the shares from the hospice doesn't put a single penny in the club's pocket.

True, but I'm pleased for the Hospice that they have finally managed to convert the gifted shares into cash - particularly as it was revealed just a couple of weeks ago that they were sickeningly robbed of about £500,000 in a telephone banking scam.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, givmeaccccc said:

Now some good news at last. With Alan Savage, Dougie and Ian McGillivray buying a large chunk of shares it looks like we could be about to turn the corner. Dougie was one of the instrumental people during the formation of our club and is a football man through and through. Throughout the years that Dougie has been in exile Ian has kept up the family link with the club, regularly attending our games. Alan Savage is also a well known football fan, his only fault apparently is that he is a Man U fan!

I am sure that these men have not just purchased shares to lock them in their bed side cabinets. Really looking forward to these gents influencing the future of ICT.

 

Mixed views on this. Savage has caused ructions and board room division the last time he was involved and DM was at the helm when we built up almost three million pounds in debt and the bank were about to pull the plug before DS stepped in.

That said, hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes and they will both be a more positive influence this time around.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Kingsmills said:

Mixed views on this. Savage has caused ructions and board room division the last time he was involved and DM was at the helm when we built up almost three million pounds in debt and the bank were about to pull the plug before DS stepped in.

That said, hopefully, we all learn from our mistakes and they will both be a more positive influence this time around.

Aye and don't forget we couldn't afford to pay the wages a couple of months ago without substantial soft loans under this present lot.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

That's pretty well it, apart from the minor detail that Jock McDonald was the inaugural chairman for 15 months until May 1995 when he was succeeded by Dougie who was in office until February 2000. Irrespective of what people say about David Sutherland, without the Tulloch intervention of 2000-01 the club may well have gone bankrupt and without the Tulloch intervention of 2004-05 to provide the stands, goodness knows what its future in the SPL would have been. DFS once told me that Tulloch intervened to a total extent of £5.3M and this claim does stand up to the arithmetic.

One intriguing revelation has been that Tulloch are proposing to "repatriate" the main stadium as well as the N and S stands to the club. The main stadium was what was handed over initially to the ICT Charitable Trust in 2001 as a quid pro quo for spiriting away that £2M+ of debt but it seems that a sequence of complex deals led to ownership eventually passing to Tullochs, as the real quid pro quo for really having taken up that debt.

In his "pre-happy clappy period", before he found God on that legendary holiday to Damascus, Caley D used to give the club pelters on here over that deal, where Tullochs effectively paid off the debt.

As for Alan Savage, Companies House records that Orion hold 275189 (precisely captain!) shares in the club. This is presumably what it cost Orion to fund Niculae for the time he was here. This has now been highlighted by today's revelation that AS, DMG and IMG have gone 3 ways on the Hospice shares - a revelation which, in conjunction with DMG announcing a bid for two directors, is bound to spark speculation about a possible power struggle.

In that event, the biggest shareholding is the 729,500 of the ICT Charitable Trust. These are mainly or even entirely the original Tulloch uptake from the 2001 bailout which were donated to the Trust. The Trust is now effectively controlled by Muirfield Mills, who are currently also well represented on the Board. So add in Muirfield Mills' own 376,00 shares and they have a clout of 1.05 million. Against that, and with the 3 way split of the Hospice shares, Orion/"Savco" has 466,500 and the McGilvray family (inc earlier acquisitions) just over 487,000. So McGilvray + Orion/"Savco" comes to 0.954M. Then there are significant holdings such as Roddy Ross (170,000), George Fraser (51,000), David Sutherland (his personal shares - 50,000), David Cameron (100,000) and Graeme Bennett (29,000). Where their loyalties may end up isn't entirely clear (although in certain cases that WON'T be with McGil/Savco!!:lol:) and we also don't know who have acquired what we assume to be the 500,000 shares corresponding to the "new money" announced in yesterday's statement. This is all in relation to a total of 4.4M issued shares (the previous 3.9M plus the assumed new 500,000, but extendable to 5M) The total number of shareholders, many of them owning just a token 250 but others into the thousands, is around 530. As a result, any battle for control of Caley Thistle could become an interesting sequence of events involving a large number of fragmented parties.

Who helped you with that details Charlie(Derek Beaumont maybe)

Lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If, in the future,  the bank did pull the plug then who would be expected to pay-off the large debt to the Bank? Banks don't usually want  repetitive repayments over  a few years when a  loan is called in, but timeous  repayment. If they are not happy with the offered repayment terms from the club they will cash-in their security taken for the coverage of the loan, which might mean they will ask for repayment from persons who have given their personal guarantees to the bank  followed by a sale of the club's assets or both at the same time, Usually the assets will be expected to go first and any residual debt remaining after the sale will be called- in from the Guarantors.

Without the Board members to chip-in  would the club be left with no other option but to sell off all physical assets? And would this then mean the end of the club because the stands would be gone, bearing in mind that the money they would be likely to earn from a sale of players might be much, much less than may be thought  to be their expected worth?

Doesn't bear thinking about does it? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Scarlet Pimple said:

If, in the future,  the bank did pull the plug then who would be expected to pay-off the large debt to the Bank? Banks don't usually want  repetitive repayments over  a few years when a  loan is called in, but timeous  repayment. If they are not happy with the offered repayment terms from the club they will cash-in their security taken for the coverage of the loan, which might mean they will ask for repayment from persons who have given their personal guarantees to the bank  followed by a sale of the club's assets or both at the same time, Usually the assets will be expected to go first and any residual debt remaining after the sale will be called- in from the Guarantors.

Without the Board members to chip-in  would the club be left with no other option but to sell off all physical assets? And would this then mean the end of the club because the stands would be gone, bearing in mind that the money they would be likely to earn from a sale of players might be much, much less than may be thought  to be their expected worth?

Doesn't bear thinking about does it? 

 

IMG_0252.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Potandbrush said:

Nice one Chas !

 

Seriously PandB... the Companies House entry for Inverness Thistle and Caledonian gives the state of the parties in terms of share ownership as at March 1st. The only significant changes since then that I'm aware of are the transfer of the Hospice shares and what I am assuming will be the creation of 500,000 new ones as described in Moday's statement, provision for which was made at the recent EGM.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.