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CLUB STATEMENT : Supporter Behaviour at Brechin

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PumpFake    310
32 minutes ago, old caley girl said:

I think the bans are in response to behaviour not swearing although I conceed statement does not make that clear. I think there were x 3 episodes of smoke bombs? One of the young female stewards was also subjected to verbal abuse. I understand there is cctv evidence of what happened. 

I dont care if we are being ridiculed really. Im glad the club have taken action against vandalism smoke bombs etc 

If three separate people set off smoke bombs they deserve their bans. Would have to know the nature of the verbals given before coming to a view as to whether it merited a ban.

Ultimately, what the last couple of weeks have boiled down to is the bad PR that would have been generated by the actions of a few being greatly magnified by the tactless response of the club.

Edited by PumpFake
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Kingsmills    3,290
37 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

If three separate people set off smoke bombs they deserve their bans. Would have to know the nature of the verbals given before coming to a view as to whether it merited a ban.

Ultimately, what the last couple of weeks have boiled down to is the bad PR that would have been generated by the actions of a few being greatly magnified by the tactless response of the club.

The 'few' left the club with no alternative but to react. If there is fault at all, it's the failure to deal with this ongoing issue earlier.

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DoofersDad    2,962
2 hours ago, PumpFake said:

I hope everybody offended by their actions will be reporting everyone heard swearing at all home and away matches going forward. The fact that the club gives bad language as a reason for banning people is a total nonsense. 

It's a green dot from me PF.  I don't know why others are taking issue with this post. This is a perfectly reasonable point to make and earlier in this discussion I also made the point that one can't be too hard on the youngsters when they get set such a bad example from the foul language of people very much older than they are.  The club can't have it both ways.  It can't tell the youngsters that unless they moderate their language they will be banned, and then completely ignore the foul mouthed abuse that some of our older supporters dish out.

Whilst I certainly support the banning of those letting off smoke bombs and causing criminal damage, I don't think the statement is very clever in it's general tone.  There really needs to be more words of encouragement to what I am sure is the vast majority of youngsters who go to games to support the team and have a bit of fun and who, from time to time, may overstep the boundaries when egged on by the small minority who want to cause trouble for some reason.  It reads like a statement written by someone who has never done anything naughtier than running through a field of wheat.  These lads need to be told their vocal support is greatly valued by the club but for the sake of the club and for their own sakes, that enthusiastic vocal support must be kept within the boundaries of the law.  To me, the statement read as though those youngsters who have not been banned will be  tolerated and a close eye will be kept on them.  Hopefully the youngsters will have enough sense to appreciate that they come along to support the team and not the Board.  

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Rasczak    106
3 minutes ago, DoofersDad said:

 I don't know why others are taking issue with this post. This is a perfectly reasonable point to make

Because PumpFake has completely misunderstood, as it appears have you, the point made in the statement.

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DoofersDad    2,962
27 minutes ago, Rasczak said:

Because PumpFake has completely misunderstood, as it appears have you, the point made in the statement.

Apologies if I'm being thick, but the Board makes a number of points.  Just which point are we supposed to have misunderstood?

Edited by DoofersDad
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RiG    2,209
18 minutes ago, Rasczak said:

Because PumpFake has completely misunderstood, as it appears have you, the point made in the statement.

And what point is it that DD and PF have misunderstood? The statement clearly sets out three issues the club have with the "Ultras" and their language is one of those issues. It is perfectly valid to surmise that, based on this, the club will be taking a similar hard line approach with supporters of all ages, both in the home and away end, on this matter. Indeed the next sentence appears to confirm this.

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MorayJaggie    4

The club won't be cracking down on the sweetie wrapper brigade it's obvious they are prejudice against the young fans of this club by the wording of the statement. It's in black and white, harks back to the old saying of seen and not heard. 

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Adamskibeats    57
2 minutes ago, MorayJaggie said:

The club won't be cracking down on the sweetie wrapper brigade it's obvious they are prejudice against the young fans of this club by the wording of the statement. It's in black and white, harks back to the old saying of seen and not heard. 

 

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Huisdean    402
36 minutes ago, MorayJaggie said:

The club won't be cracking down on the sweetie wrapper brigade it's obvious they are prejudice against the young fans of this club by the wording of the statement. It's in black and white, harks back to the old saying of seen and not heard. 

Absolute nonsense. I have seen people in the main stand spoken to by stewards and police (admittedly for some pretty excessive language) but much harder to crack down on an individual than a group of fans. As far as I can see, no prejudice against young fans per se by the club, if these morons had not acted in the way they did at Brechin, the club would not need to issue a statement at all. As some other posters have said, this has been coming as the behaviour of some of our younger fans after some home games last season was pretty bad. Whether these are the same fans who were at Brechin or the Ultras, I have no idea. Don't some of those fans such as Moray Jaggie think that the behaviour of these fans may also be keeping some fans from attending games because of their behaviour. Sadly it seems these days that many people think they have a right to do anything they want but are not willing to accept any responsibility for their actions.

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DoofersDad    2,962

Just to elaborate on my earlier post. let's have a look at a couple of sections from the club's statement.

1.  "The Club is also aware of a group of supporters who operate under the name of the “Ultras”.  They are a particularly vocal group of supporters, something that we have no concerns with, providing, going forward, they temper their language, cease setting off smoke bombs and cease causing damage at home and away grounds." 

It is clear from this that the club is putting bad language in the same bracket as the criminal activities of letting of smoke bombs and causing criminal damage.  If folk are being banned for the latter two, the implication is that unless the youngsters "temper their language" they could be banned for that.  So what are the club doing about the foul and abusive language from older supporters?  And what are they doing about the swearing from players on the park?

The 2nd point from this section of the statement is "They are a particularly vocal group of supporters, something that we have no concerns with".  What miserable wording!  The club should be celebrating the fact that these lads give vocal support.  It should be encouraging them to continue to do so.  Instead, it comes across that this great vocal support which most of us love to hear is something the club simply tolerates.

The 3rd point is that "cease setting off smoke bombs and cease causing damage at home and away grounds." almost implies that all the lads in the group are guilty of letting off smoke bombs and causing damage.  They can't "cease" something that they have not been doing.  They are all being tarred with the same brush.

2.  "Unacceptable conduct is conduct which is deemed violent or disorderly. Violent Conduct includes any actual, attempted or threatened physical violence against any person or intentional damage to property."  Well, I think we are all clear what "violent" conduct means but "disorderly" conduct could mean different things to different people.  What might be simple youthful exuberance to someone could be considered disorderly behaviour to someone else.  There is a need to elaborate on what they mean by "disorderly" and the club has chickened out of doing so.  The worry here is that in the event of a complaint, "disorderly" may mean whatever it is convenient to the Board to mean. 

Of course the club was right to ban those identified engaging in criminal activity.  And of course the club was right to issue a statement.  Unfortunately the statement is hugely unhelpful in moving forward.  It is particularly disappointing that such a naff statement should come so soon after there were promising signs that the Board was wanting to engage constructively with supporters. 

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+weeman    18
3 hours ago, PumpFake said:

Ultimately, what the last couple of weeks have boiled down to is the bad PR that would have been generated by the actions of a few being greatly magnified by the tactless response of the club.

Edited 3 hours ago by PumpFake

If you think about it you have probably magnified this more than anyone 

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PumpFake    310
6 minutes ago, weeman said:

If you think about it you have probably magnified this more than anyone 

I don't think my posts in this thread are what have caused the coverage in regional and national print and digital media, to be honest.

Edited by PumpFake
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MorayJaggie    4
3 hours ago, Huisdean said:

Absolute nonsense. I have seen people in the main stand spoken to by stewards and police (admittedly for some pretty excessive language) but much harder to crack down on an individual than a group of fans. As far as I can see, no prejudice against young fans per se by the club, if these morons had not acted in the way they did at Brechin, the club would not need to issue a statement at all. As some other posters have said, this has been coming as the behaviour of some of our younger fans after some home games last season was pretty bad. Whether these are the same fans who were at Brechin or the Ultras, I have no idea. Don't some of those fans such as Moray Jaggie think that the behaviour of these fans may also be keeping some fans from attending games because of their behaviour. Sadly it seems these days that many people think they have a right to do anything they want but are not willing to accept any responsibility for their actions.

How is it harder to crack down on an individual than a group. If their language merited speaking to be police or steward they should be ejected. Very simple as their behaviour is criminal in respect of causing offense to others no different from what's been said in the media. But it's ok as it's older fans doing it. Also if they continue that behaviour at other games then they should be banned.  No i don't believe that people are staying away because of these lads. They are staying away because of the position the club fonds itself after being literally run into the ground with embarrassingly poor facilities and infrastructure and poor management over the past few years. 

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Council Juice    383

Boohoo all the older boys and girls are picking on us. It's totally OTT. They swear too etc.....

Suck it up and don't be so dumb as to get caught and you won't get the bother.

As to what Old Firm fans think of our club statement, perhaps if their own boards actually did something about their own support instead of trying to shift the blame onto "them as well" then their fans wouldn't continuously drag Scottish football through the gutter on such a regular basis.

Our board have acted strongly to both a complaint by Brechin and noise from SFA. They didn't have much choice anyway. Perhaps the tone could have been different. Maybe it was a little condescending and tarnished all with one brush. But they had to, realistically, say something.

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+jingsmonty    197
13 hours ago, PumpFake said:

The laughing stock of Scottish football, ICTFC: https://mobile.twitter.com/Oldfirmfacts1?p=s

I really don't give a s*%t if old firm fans are laughing at us - that's their problem. We aren't the old firm & I'm sick & tired of apologists for the behaviour (although I can see how the reference to language in the statement left the club open to ridicule..) - it isn't acceptable to throw smoke bombs/flares, vandalise a bus or any of the other things they've done.

All this is putting me off going to away games, as other clubs will tar us all with the same brush...by taking the action, the club has sent a message that they take it seriously & that we are not all foul mouthed wee neds who cause trouble..

If you think it's acceptable to do that, go & support one of the ugly sisters..

The language thing - my feeling is that it's more about sustained & personal abuse aimed at particular persons, rather than general swearing (every ground in Scotland would be empty if it was!) - I can remember having a go (as did several other people) at the wee neds who were chanting 'dirty gypsy bas#@rds' at the Astra Girgiu home game - that was bona fide rascist chanting & could have landed the club with a UEFA fine.

My point is that I don't think they even realise what they're doing sometimes - maybe the banning will make some others realise that they need to behave better (without losing the enthusiasm & passion)

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RiG    2,209

Given the comments from some posters, ymip for example, about seats already being broken in the stand ICT fans were located in that day I trust the club are vetting the claim from Brechin before just agreeing to pay it? 

Additionally, I wonder if any of the alleged perpetrators were invited to give their side of the story or were they just assumed to be guilty?

Again, not condoning what is alleged to have taken place but there does appear to be significant pre-judgement of the lads involved.

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Kingsmills    3,290
11 hours ago, MorayJaggie said:

The club won't be cracking down on the sweetie wrapper brigade it's obvious they are prejudice against the young fans of this club by the wording of the statement. It's in black and white, harks back to the old saying of seen and not heard. 

As far I'm aware, the rustling of sweetie papers is not yet a criminal offence. Damaging property belonging to others is.

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+jingsmonty    197
10 hours ago, Huisdean said:

Absolute nonsense. I have seen people in the main stand spoken to by stewards and police (admittedly for some pretty excessive language) but much harder to crack down on an individual than a group of fans. As far as I can see, no prejudice against young fans per se by the club, if these morons had not acted in the way they did at Brechin, the club would not need to issue a statement at all. As some other posters have said, this has been coming as the behaviour of some of our younger fans after some home games last season was pretty bad. Whether these are the same fans who were at Brechin or the Ultras, I have no idea. Don't some of those fans such as Moray Jaggie think that the behaviour of these fans may also be keeping some fans from attending games because of their behaviour. Sadly it seems these days that many people think they have a right to do anything they want but are not willing to accept any responsibility for their actions.

Perfectly put...why some people feel the need to defend the actions of people who are dragging the good name of our club through the mud - nothing to do with a non-existent bias against young fans. 

We need our young fans - we don't need wee neds who cause trouble.

I wouldn't disagree with the sentiment of the club statement (maybe it could have been worded a bit better, mind you), they had little choice in the matter.

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ymip    224
15 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

There's possibly only one thing that saddens me more than the anti-social behaviour in question and that is the apologists who seem to be queueing up in support of a bunch of troublemakers who have been creating well documented problems for a considerable period of time. My main regret here is that there wasn't a more pre-emptive strike on this months ago. For goodness sake, these wee neds have been a thorn in the flesh of this club for long enough in addition to causing offence under the law of the land and that of the football governing bodies. The law has been broken, other supporters' match day experience has been repeatedly spoiled and, especially during the lengthy period of inaction, Inverness Caledonian Thistle has had a bad reputation for anti-social supporter behaviour forced upon it. This problem needed sorted and now some action has at last been taken. Defending these people on the grounds that they make some kind of virtuous noise is absurd. Football is a sport and not a dustbin for social malaise.

Meanwhile the irony of the whingeing we are now reading about club statements is palpable. Complaints about lack of communication and board inactivity have been loud and long. However the response of some to the far more proactive and forthcoming board policy seen of late appears to be to complain about that as well.

Dear Charles, possibly only one thing saddens me more than the farcical club statements and moral outrage vented on here and that's the fact that your crusade to police this forum and the general conduct of our support goes unchallenged when you're very clearly a dispassionate voyeur rather than an actual supporter who has some emotional investment in the club.   Your sneering, self aggrandising tone of moral superiority and intellectual snobbery quite frankly gives me the boke.  I have absolutely no interest in debating your jaundiced, prejudicial and classist views on ICT matters on this forum but if I ever actually have the misfortune of bumping into you at an away game (simply never going to happen is it Charles?) then please feel free to correct any misconceptions I've picked up on here over the years.

 

 

 

 

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ictchris    872
1 hour ago, ymip said:

Meanwhile the irony of the whingeing we are now reading about club statements is palpable. Complaints about lack of communication and board inactivity have been loud and long. However the response of some to the far more proactive and forthcoming board policy seen of late appears to be to complain about that as well.

This is an extremely poor point. The club should give out relevant information written in a professional and clear way. What they've been doing is sending out Sir Bufton-Tufton statements, written in a puffed up, finger wagging style that make the club look ridiculous.  It's typical of organisations and people who are completely out of their depth to react in this sort of passive aggressive way - "oh you are complaining about not getting enough information, well here's a statement every two days, how's that for information eh". It also shows complete ignorance on how to manage the media and get positive coverage for the club.

The issue with fans at Brechin could have been dealt with without a statement. If fans were caught with flares or smoke bombs then they should be banned. You don't need a statement to do that.

 

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Adamskibeats    57
3 hours ago, RiG said:

Given the comments from some posters, ymip for example, about seats already being broken in the stand ICT fans were located in that day I trust the club are vetting the claim from Brechin before just agreeing to pay it? 

Additionally, I wonder if any of the alleged perpetrators were invited to give their side of the story or were they just assumed to be guilty?

Again, not condoning what is alleged to have taken place but there does appear to be significant pre-judgement of the lads involved.

The bill was for broken seats where the young team were situated as far as I'm aware.

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ferben1994    154
1 hour ago, ymip said:

Dear Charles, possibly only one thing saddens me more than the farcical club statements and moral outrage vented on here and that's the fact that your crusade to police this forum and the general conduct of our support goes unchallenged when you're very clearly a dispassionate voyeur rather than an actual supporter who has some emotional investment in the club.   Your sneering, self aggrandising tone of moral superiority and intellectual snobbery quite frankly gives me the boke.  I have absolutely no interest in debating your jaundiced, prejudicial and classist views on ICT matters on this forum but if I ever actually have the misfortune of bumping into you at an away game (simply never going to happen is it Charles?) then please feel free to correct any misconceptions I've picked up on here over the years.

 

 

 

 

I have never agreed with a post more.

Why this guy even pretends to have some sort of liking for the club I will never know.

Away over the bridge Charlie boy.

 

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Rasczak    106
19 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

Apologies if I'm being thick, but the Board makes a number of points.  Just which point are we supposed to have misunderstood?

That by referring to tempering language means that using any swearing at all will treated as if you had carried out a deliberate criminal act. Of course there are cases where swearing can be an integral part of a criminal act, but a single utterance would not be the case, which should be abundantly clear without it having to be spelt out, although it seems I just had to.

 

From reading further in the thread it seems like I am in a minority who sees the statement for what it is and that the club is being seen to take action. If others want to complain more vocally about this being dealt with correctly, than it that it happened, then there doesn't seem any point in debating any further. I'll know how I stand.

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RiG    2,209
1 hour ago, Rasczak said:

That by referring to tempering language means that using any swearing at all will treated as if you had carried out a deliberate criminal act. Of course there are cases where swearing can be an integral part of a criminal act, but a single utterance would not be the case, which should be abundantly clear without it having to be spelt out, although it seems I just had to.

 

From reading further in the thread it seems like I am in a minority who sees the statement for what it is and that the club is being seen to take action. If others want to complain more vocally about this being dealt with correctly, than it that it happened, then there doesn't seem any point in debating any further. I'll know how I stand.

I think you need to go back and read the post in question again. You've completely misunderstood what DoofersDad is saying.

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DoofersDad    2,962
2 hours ago, Rasczak said:

That by referring to tempering language means that using any swearing at all will treated as if you had carried out a deliberate criminal act. Of course there are cases where swearing can be an integral part of a criminal act, but a single utterance would not be the case, which should be abundantly clear without it having to be spelt out, although it seems I just had to.

 

From reading further in the thread it seems like I am in a minority who sees the statement for what it is and that the club is being seen to take action. If others want to complain more vocally about this being dealt with correctly, than it that it happened, then there doesn't seem any point in debating any further. I'll know how I stand.

Of course it would be stupid to treat swearing the same as letting off flares or committing criminal damage. I'm not suggesting for a moment that the club actually would treat them the same, but the point is that the club statement suggests they would.  The statement needs to be judged on what it actually says and not on what you assume they mean. 

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