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ICT Supporters Travel Club

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+Fraz    928
48 minutes ago, UltraJags said:

I take onboard what you have said, and if you check my comments I have not defended the actions of anyone on that bus, it's the reaction to it since and how the travel club have tried to hide behind D&E for banning folk from the bus, some of which they know fine well didn't do any damage. 

 

Anyway, nothing will change and they will have lost a group of fans now for good

They've not tried to hide behind anything. I've not seen anything from them saying that it was D&E's decision. However the reality from my previous experience is the they will have been given a warning about it if not an ultimatum. And who could blame them?

It's a crappy situation and it's not a one off there were complaints and issues when I was involved over 2 years ago, most of which are dealt with at the time and we move on. You have to remember that everyone who runs and is a convener on every bus is doing so voluntarily and the pay for their seat like everyone else. They're not there to deal with people's behaviour, damage, complaints from drivers and bus companies, questions from the club/police, clearing up rubbish all over the place, vomit, missing games from taking drunk teens to A&E. 

I love the craic the lads bring and it's sad that it's come to this, I can only assume that they felt there was no other choice. 

Perhaps you could look into running a bus for the 30 excuded lads, you clearly feel strongly about it and there's obviously a demand.

Out of interest what do you suggest they should have done differently?

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DoofersDad    2,962
1 hour ago, UltraJags said:

I take onboard what you have said, and if you check my comments I have not defended the actions of anyone on that bus, it's the reaction to it since and how the travel club have tried to hide behind D&E for banning folk from the bus, some of which they know fine well didn't do any damage. 

 

Anyway, nothing will change and they will have lost a group of fans now for good

It doesn't sound as though you have taken anything on board at all.  You say "some of which they know fine well didn't do any damage." but my post was all about the fact that this is not just about the damage.  It is about behaviour in general and the absolute need for the bus driver not to be distracted.  I acknowledge that you have not defended the actions of anyone on the bus and I assume from that that you at least acknowledge some folk behaved inappropriately.  What you seem unable to appreciate is the seriousness of this.  I am sure you accept that sanctions must be taken against anyone causing malicious damage but the more pertinent issue here is what actions should be taken against those whose behaviour was not in any way malicious but which, nevertheless, was inappropriate and inadvertently put people at risk.

My knowledge of events is only what I've read, but whatever the truth of what went on is, the key consideration here must be to ensure that this kind of thing does not happen again.  It is clear that there are some at least for whom a ban is completely justified.  It may be that there are several youngsters who got sucked into the bad behaviour by peer pressure and perhaps against their better judgement.  It would be a great shame if they got banned when a talking to and getting them to appreciate the potential consequences of such behaviour might well do the trick.  But then again, some of these lads may well have been warned before for all  I know.  What I do know is that the actions of the club and the Travel Club will be aimed at ensuring that safe travel is available for people who wish to support the team.  If some innocent lads are being unfairly banned then the fault for that lies squarely with the morons who caused the trouble in the first place.  The club tries to provide a service which offers as cheap and convenient transport to games as possible. Remember, people give up their own time to organise this on a voluntary basis for the benefit of others.  If you want to use the service, you abide by the rules.  That's the deal.  

And please don't spout that cr*p about the club losing a group of fans for good.  If the club has lost a small handful of morons  then good riddance to them.  The genuine fans amongst the youngsters will keep coming to the games - because that is what fans do.  

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PumpFake    310

Fraz handling this properly rather than exhibiting the totalitarian zealotry of some others in this thread. The youth are the club's future; it is foolish to alienate then even if you are upset by their behaviour. The club has relatively few fans in their 20s and 30s compared to other clubs - a lot of this is due to us being perceived as being too much of a family / old fogey club. It is fine to criticise constructively, but ranting serves nobody.

Edited by PumpFake
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+Fraz    928
11 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

Fraz handling this properly rather than exhibiting the totalitarian zealotry of some others in this thread. The youth are the club's future; it is foolish to alienate then even if you are upset by their behaviour. The club has relatively few fans in their 20s and 30s compared to other clubs - a lot of this is due to us being perceived as being too much of a family / old fogey club. It is fine to critisise constructively, but ranting serves nobody.

What would be the proper way to handle it? Where have I alienated anyone? 

I'm not upset. I never had to deal with it. 

Posting about a given subject in a thread is now a rant? Aye ok. Everything I've posted is accurate to the best of my knowledge. 

It just really pisses me off when folk have a go at the very few volunteers and organisers we actually have but never put themselves forward to take responsibility. Very easy to have all the answers behind a keyboard when you don't have to deal with the fallout.

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old caley girl    1,141
12 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

Fraz handling this properly rather than exhibiting the totalitarian zealotry of some others in this thread. The youth are the club's future; it is foolish to alienate then even if you are upset by their behaviour. The club has relatively few fans in their 20s and 30s compared to other clubs - a lot of this is due to us being perceived as being too much of a family / old fogey club. It is fine to criticise constructively, but ranting serves nobody.

Im not sure thats true? There are a large amount of season tickets in the 16-24 catagory I believe. Also our club is surely for everybody old and young? Cant see why being perceived as a family club is a bad thing really. 

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+Fraz    928
11 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

I was saying your post was measured compared to some others!

:lol::lol::lol:

The way I read it was that you were having a pop. My apologies. What a nugget.

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DoofersDad    2,962
15 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

Fraz handling this properly rather than exhibiting the totalitarian zealotry of some others in this thread. The youth are the club's future; it is foolish to alienate then even if you are upset by their behaviour. The club has relatively few fans in their 20s and 30s compared to other clubs - a lot of this is due to us being perceived as being too much of a family / old fogey club. It is fine to criticise constructively, but ranting serves nobody.

The only ranting seems to be coming from the likes of you complaining about the fact that those associated with the club are taking some actions against a handful of idiots whose behaviour damages the club.  What Fraz is saying seems to be very much the same as me and others. The overwhelming reaction form older fans is simply one of sadness that the actions of a small number of idiots is harming the reputation of a lot of decent young folk who have been giving great support to the club.    Of course the youth are the club's future!  That is why it is important that actions are taken which mean they can continue to give enthusiastic support to the club without getting sidetracked into behaviour which which both damages the club and which might have serious implications for the youngsters themselves on a personal level.  I don't know what your agenda is but the fact is that any suggestion that anyone in the club is trying to alienate the youth could not be further from the the truth.

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PumpFake    310

The whole tone of your post - that some of our young supporters are not decent-minded and are idiots simply because they drop some litter and one of them has damaged a fan etc. is patronising and liable to alienate. That is all I am saying.

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+jingsmonty    197
24 minutes ago, PumpFake said:

The whole tone of your post - that some of our young supporters are not decent-minded and are idiots simply because they drop some litter and one of them has damaged a fan etc. is patronising and liable to alienate. That is all I am saying.

And I suppose dropping litter & damaging a fan is ok then? The club is for everybody, young & old! I really couldn't care less if the club alienates wee boys who think its a laugh to vandalise a bus...if they apologised for their actions, fair enough but doubt that'll happen somehow....

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PumpFake    310
19 minutes ago, jingsmonty said:

And I suppose dropping litter & damaging a fan is ok then? The club is for everybody, young & old! I really couldn't care less if the club alienates wee boys who think its a laugh to vandalise a bus...if they apologised for their actions, fair enough but doubt that'll happen somehow....

Of course it isn't ok and I have never condoned it. As with the flare issue, my concern is with the intensity of the response to their transgressions. In ten years' time, when the youngsters have grown up, will they be more or less likely to support a club whose fans have collectively punished them for actions that they may not have committed?

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PumpFake    310
1 hour ago, old caley girl said:

Im not sure thats true? There are a large amount of season tickets in the 16-24 catagory I believe. Also our club is surely for everybody old and young? Cant see why being perceived as a family club is a bad thing really. 

I think the issue is that once people have to start paying adult prices at 25, and the fact that our matchday experience is not really geared towards this age group in any way, leads people at this age to attend less frequently than they would otherwise. If we had more of a city-club culture, whereby it was the usual thing for people in their 20s to drink before games in a pub in town and drink on the bus on the way to away games, we may retain more of these fans. Something for another thread, perhaps.

And I have no qualms with us being viewed as a family club - but for some young males who naturally like a bit of edge to their matchday experience, this may not be too attractive.

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UltraJags    4
3 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

It doesn't sound as though you have taken anything on board at all.  You say "some of which they know fine well didn't do any damage." but my post was all about the fact that this is not just about the damage.  It is about behaviour in general and the absolute need for the bus driver not to be distracted.  I acknowledge that you have not defended the actions of anyone on the bus and I assume from that that you at least acknowledge some folk behaved inappropriately.  What you seem unable to appreciate is the seriousness of this.  I am sure you accept that sanctions must be taken against anyone causing malicious damage but the more pertinent issue here is what actions should be taken against those whose behaviour was not in any way malicious but which, nevertheless, was inappropriate and inadvertently put people at risk.

My knowledge of events is only what I've read, but whatever the truth of what went on is, the key consideration here must be to ensure that this kind of thing does not happen again.  It is clear that there are some at least for whom a ban is completely justified.  It may be that there are several youngsters who got sucked into the bad behaviour by peer pressure and perhaps against their better judgement.  It would be a great shame if they got banned when a talking to and getting them to appreciate the potential consequences of such behaviour might well do the trick.  But then again, some of these lads may well have been warned before for all  I know.  What I do know is that the actions of the club and the Travel Club will be aimed at ensuring that safe travel is available for people who wish to support the team.  If some innocent lads are being unfairly banned then the fault for that lies squarely with the morons who caused the trouble in the first place.  The club tries to provide a service which offers as cheap and convenient transport to games as possible. Remember, people give up their own time to organise this on a voluntary basis for the benefit of others.  If you want to use the service, you abide by the rules.  That's the deal.  

And please don't spout that cr*p about the club losing a group of fans for good.  If the club has lost a small handful of morons  then good riddance to them.  The genuine fans amongst the youngsters will keep coming to the games - because that is what fans do.  

I was referring to the travel club losing a group of fans that would not use their bus, not the football club. 

I know now the truth of what happened.

However I feel this is getting nowhere. We have similar view points on fan safety/travel concerns etc but can't agree on how it should have been handled. 

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Huisdean    402
1 hour ago, PumpFake said:

I think the issue is that once people have to start paying adult prices at 25, and the fact that our matchday experience is not really geared towards this age group in any way, leads people at this age to attend less frequently than they would otherwise. If we had more of a city-club culture, whereby it was the usual thing for people in their 20s to drink before games in a pub in town and drink on the bus on the way to away games, we may retain more of these fans. Something for another thread, perhaps.

And I have no qualms with us being viewed as a family club - but for some young males who naturally like a bit of edge to their matchday experience, this may not be too attractive.

Don't think this is true. Our location has a lot to do with it as no nearby pubs to generate this type of support. Not everyone has to drink to enjoy the game and drinking on buses going to away games is illegal and can lead to serious consequences for the bus operator as the police do check this.

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+Moogthurso    63
8 hours ago, UltraJags said:

Don't recall seeing a bit in the paper saying he had banned them, I don't condone the mess but not exactly worthy of banning orders, perhaps all 30 of them broke the fan?

Sorry but think your under a false impression that life is fair and proof required. Life is not a court of law. 

There is no onus on a service provider to give reasons for removal of access to a service . 

There is a requirement for people to meet minimum acceptable social standards whether renting a flat, working in a team or in a pub. 

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PumpFake    310
1 hour ago, Moogthurso said:

Sorry but think your under a false impression that life is fair and proof required. Life is not a court of law. 

There is no onus on a service provider to give reasons for removal of access to a service . 

There is a requirement for people to meet minimum acceptable social standards whether renting a flat, working in a team or in a pub. 

Of course life isn't fair - but that doesn't mean unfairness should go unchallenged when it presents itself.

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+jingsmonty    197
22 hours ago, PumpFake said:

Of course it isn't ok and I have never condoned it. As with the flare issue, my concern is with the intensity of the response to their transgressions. In ten years' time, when the youngsters have grown up, will they be more or less likely to support a club whose fans have collectively punished them for actions that they may not have committed?

I'd rather the sensible young fans (the vast majority of them, I'm sure) would disassociate themselves from the numpties, or at least stop trying to justify their behaviour...easier said than done, I know, but needs to be done - the small 'Ned element' will ruin it for us all (and I don't mean just the younger fans).

They need to realise that they are representing the club (especially at away games) and tbeir actions reflect on us all. Just behave, guys & stop justifying the behaviour of those that don't)..

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