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Blair

Who do you think is the fault of Caley current standard of team?

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I have thought for a while regarding Caley the board were the cause of most of Caley problems overall regarding the team and I thought the board always  acted like they were still in the Highland league. The reasons for me thinking that they always seem to pick whoever the cheapest for players or football managers. Refuse to kick out a manager when they do bad. The portakabin I was always surprised how long it stayed at the club even when they were in the Scottish Premiership. 

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13 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

And your point is, caller?

Totally uncalled for and fairly predictable bullying behaviour. I wonder how many weaker/younger/inexperienced/less articulate posters you have chased away from this forum over the years.

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From the club administration point of view finances are a problem.

I don't think they  ( the board that is ) expected relegation , when they didn't ( or refused to  )    delve into the coffers to pay  for new contracts players were demanding  after the cup win

 JH obviously got frustrated he was unable to keep his team together, or even attract loan players because of a shortage of cash

RF took up the reigns with his hands tied behind his back. He was too  inexperienced  to keep the club up , only a couple of  points between going down and staying up. The board miscalculated and the unexpected relegation shook them I am sure

Relegation meant more cost cutting  and the  club only held on to a few of their former players ,  Again I don't think the board saw it coming that another relegation was possible.

From what I am reading on this forum most of the fans also are totally shocked by the situation.  the new manager also is under severe financial restraint ,  he is hoping he can get enough points together for survival , but he needs to find new players to score goals. the older players are getting depressed and moral is dropping like a stone.

I wonder if administration is not far off , all the signs are there ,  that the only option maybe  is to go down or go bust.

Sounds horrible to contemplate I think it is pointless to blame this person, that person,  or the board or the man in the moon  It won't change anything. 

Somehow or another we have to start winning matches ,  The ball is in the boards court , it is their problem, and it all comes down to money.

 

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John Hughes and the board who backed him.  He stretched our finances unnecessarily, then put himself in an untenable position knowing fine he would require to be paid until further employment was found, forcing us into converting Forans playing contract into a managerial one. Foran wasn't ready but was never going to turn down the offer.

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1 hour ago, Laurence said:

From the club administration point of view finances are a problem.

I don't think they  ( the board that is ) expected relegation , when they didn't ( or refused to  )    delve into the coffers to pay  for new contracts players were demanding  after the cup win

 JH obviously got frustrated he was unable to keep his team together, or even attract loan players because of a shortage of cash

RF took up the reigns with his hands tied behind his back. He was too  inexperienced  to keep the club up , only a couple of  points between going down and staying up. The board miscalculated and the unexpected relegation shook them I am sure

Relegation meant more cost cutting  and the  club only held on to a few of their former players ,  Again I don't think the board saw it coming that another relegation was possible.

From what I am reading on this forum most of the fans also are totally shocked by the situation.  the new manager also is under severe financial restraint ,  he is hoping he can get enough points together for survival , but he needs to find new players to score goals. the older players are getting depressed and moral is dropping like a stone.

I wonder if administration is not far off , all the signs are there ,  that the only option maybe  is to go down or go bust.

Sounds horrible to contemplate I think it is pointless to blame this person, that person,  or the board or the man in the moon  It won't change anything. 

Somehow or another we have to start winning matches ,  The ball is in the boards court , it is their problem, and it all comes down to money.

 

Sorry but no one is to blame is not an answer.  The board are ultimately I'm charge if they don't have the foresight to forsee problems then they are inadequate at their jobs and culpable for running the club into the ground. That is their role at the club to ensure finance is in place make sure the club survives. Lead from the top. 

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18 hours ago, Charles Bannerman said:

And your point is, caller?

And your point is ? It seems to me that, in the current circumstances, the question is entirely pertinent and timely.

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7 hours ago, Blair said:

Well I was interested to hear what you all would say over this.

Blair, I'm still not 100% sure precisely what you are asking, possibly largely because of the changing nature of the Board in recent years. Football club boards are evolving things and in the case of the ICT board, there has of late not only been evolution but a straight jump from one species to another! I also think that the origins of the current problem go back several seasons, although it has only manifested itself on the field within the last couple of years.

It's very difficult indeed to know what's happening behind closed boardroom doors, especially when, until very recently, the board was as secretive as it used to be. However I have a feeling that the root cause was the progressive acquiescence to managerial demands for first team squad funding... in a financial climate where unpredictable windfalls and selling the family silverware had to be relied on to meet these demands as far as possible and juggle the profit and loss account. A lot of the rest of the difficulties follow on from there.

I am led to believe that Terry Butcher was pretty accomplished at maximising what he could get from the board for squad funding, but on the other hand, his recruits were also of high quality and this led to fan satisfaction and a lot of performance related cash coming back in from good results (and of course extra bonuses to be paid.) Then when Yogi came along, the demands continued - escalated perhaps, given that this appears to have been the final cause of Yogi's departure. However Yogi's recruits were, to be generous, not quite of the same calibre as before, and as time went by, the club was paying above the odds for less and less productive personnel. I believe that Yogi just got away with winning the Scottish Cup fielding quite a few of Butcher's players but as more and more of his own signings had to be called upon, he began to be found out. Perhaps this also led to more and more strident demands for cash in his last year.

Then when Yogi does go, the Board realises that it has painted itself into a corner as a result of this somewhat Faustian arrangement. They are now left with an expensive but much declined squad, and Yogi's gardening leave to pay into the bargain. They are really struggling to balance the books so pressure is on to go for the cheap option which is Richie Foran and I need say no more of last season, for which the presumably fairly imminent accounts to 31.5.17. are also going to make interesting reading.

So, with another £1m+ off the budget on relegation, wages really have to be slashed leaving very little for players. The narrative has now reached the beginning of this season, but I really think that it's too early to attribute blame for the last two months for two linked reasons. For the reasons stated above, neither John Robertson nor the current Board have really been in post for long enough to be judged on what they have managed to do on what are now massively reduced resources,  The current board numbers only four. Two, including the new Chairman, who has been in that post for just six weeks, were new recruited a few months ago. One dates back to 2015 and the fourth is longer serving. Five board members have departed this year in this rapidly evolving/species jumping process, so it's very difficult to attribute blame.

Blair, that's the best take I can give you on it. This is purely a personal appraisal and I hope that it helps to answer some of the queries you had.

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Excellent summing up of the position, Charles. That's how we got into this mess but can you tell us how we get out of it!

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A challenging question and  very well put Blair! An open question begging for an answer? Yes.  

Living some 6,000 Kilometers away I rely entirely on this site to keep me up to date with goings on and newbies always see things in a new light and often from a different angle. 

The contacts I have had with both the last and, latterly, the current Chairman of the Board simply asking whether or not the video for viewers will continue have been singularly unsuccessful.  The last Chairman ignored the contact completely and  the current  CEO replied belatedly that he knew nothing about these videos, but that he would look into it and reply. To date I still await this gentleman's reply......?  If he thinks I am a far-away Mouse who doesn't count then he should reflect on the fact that my Grandfather  was a very important actor in the cartoon  film industry  going under the name of Mickey and I now have many  monied friends in San Francisco, Seattle and Los Angeles who might be looking for a new investment, fame in Europe and more fortune. Who knows, it's a good policy to be nice to people on the way up so that they will be nice to you when your  star wanes and you are on the way down.  :crazy:And good manners maketh man.

The new onsite shop looks smallish but otherwise fabulous but communication with fans MUST improve if this Board wants any kind of rallying to the flag by what appears to be a really cheesed-off fan base. :wave:

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Yes some excellent points put across but why apportion so much blame to John Hughes ? If the Board had had the guts to follow John's demands,  when the side was at its best re. player potential, given him the money to retain the players he wanted to keep and /or during the horrendous injury period to buy the right replacements instead of second choice money to take in lesser able players,we in all probability, would be where Aberdeen are now. The football our Team was playing at it's peak was the best in Scotland and a joy to watch. Unfortunately it wasn't to be and now we are paying the price.

It is doubtful if we will ever again reach such dizzy heights but I am still backing Robbo to stabilize the Team. i.e. subject to forward thinking by the new Board and getting some decent loan signings in to give us some extra impetus to spur the present compliment into some form of belief in themselves and the required attitude on the field.

 

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1 minute ago, bughtmaster said:

Yes some excellent points put across but why apportion so much blame to John Hughes ? If the Board had had the guts to follow John's demands,  when the side was at its best re. player potential, given him the money to retain the players he wanted to keep and /or during the horrendous injury period to buy the right replacements instead of second choice money to take in lesser able players,we in all probability, would be where Aberdeen are now. The football our Team was playing at it's peak was the best in Scotland and a joy to watch. Unfortunately it wasn't to be and now we are paying the price.

It is doubtful if we will ever again reach such dizzy heights but I am still backing Robbo to stabilize the Team. i.e. subject to forward thinking by the new Board and getting some decent loan signings in to give us some extra impetus to spur the present compliment into some form of belief in themselves and the required attitude on the field.

 

If the board had "followed John's demands' we wouldn't just be in the Championship now we'd be in administration.

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Just now, Kingsmills said:

If the board had "followed John's demands' we wouldn't just be in the Championship now we'd be in administration.

Kingsmills...........My opinion is every bit as good as anybody else;s and I certainly disagree with the certainty of yours.

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If the players in the current team are not interested then take firm action.  Ditch most of those involved, put in the youngsters and watch at least great effort from them.

At the same time, ensure that the current first team  players  watch the game and maybe they might learn something of great value from the nuances of commitment, energy output and thirst for a win? '

Just ruminating as to how to turn this around? Then judge the reactions of the fans....

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23 minutes ago, bughtmaster said:

Kingsmills...........My opinion is every bit as good as anybody else;s and I certainly disagree with the certainty of yours.

I don't think this is really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact that Hughes was given a significantly higher player budget than Butcher ever was. And I don't think anyone here would disagree that despite that, Hughes was unable to recruit players of the same calibre as Butcher did. 

There have been a number of threads which have compared the players who left and those who came during Hughes' tenure. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but if you disagree with this, do us all a favour and provide some evidence to support your view. 

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What additional money was there to give Hughes? He'd already spunked shed loads of cash on a raft of unimpressive players, especially countless central midfielders, even if we did have cash to give him I'd have been pretty reticent about giving him any extra money given his spectacular failures in the transfer market during his tenure. 

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26 minutes ago, DoofersDad said:

I don't think this is really a matter of opinion. It is a matter of fact that Hughes was given a significantly higher player budget than Butcher ever was. And I don't think anyone here would disagree that despite that, Hughes was unable to recruit players of the same calibre as Butcher did. 

There have been a number of threads which have compared the players who left and those who came during Hughes' tenure. Of course you are entitled to your opinion, but if you disagree with this, do us all a favour and provide some evidence to support your view. 

the proof of the pudding was in the eating.

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12 minutes ago, bughtmaster said:

the proof of the pudding was in the eating.

The pudding rose well with the previous manager's ingredients and methods but turned very stale very quickly thereafter.

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2 hours ago, DoofersDad said:

Excellent summing up of the position, Charles. That's how we got into this mess but can you tell us how we get out of it!

Short of a Sugardaddy situation which would be as hypothetical as it was unsustainable, I'm afraid I can't DD. The writing was already on the wall during the several years when the club lived from hand to mouth and depended critically on being fortunate enough to receive windfalls which, along with selling the Social Club, funded ever increasing wages for players who latterly justified them less and less. The gap between the club's capacity to generate income and what it would need to survive in the Premiership is now so large that the only thing that could bridge it would be substantial, ongoing subsidy.

I have for many years now thought that the inner Moray Firth is incapable of sustaining two Premiership sides without major subsidy for both. In practice, it probably isn't capable of even sustaining one without subsidy due to the non-transferability of income streams from one to the other for partisan reasons. Caley Thistle acquired its Sugardaddy in 2000 and this hugely assisted its progress to the SPL, also keeping the club there for many years. The one big error of that era was Brewster 2 which was neutralised by the one big stroke of luck which was going straight back up from an apparently impossible mid-season position in 2009-10. Thereafter, there was only so long that fortuitously timed cup runs, player sales, unexpectedly high league placings, sale of the Social Club and relatively minor benefactors of modest 6-figure sums were going to keep things going - especially after recruitment became so bad under Hughes.

I'm realising that I'm in danger of repeating what I've already said, but there's clear blue water between income and required expenditure. Meanwhile, it's Ross County's turn for benefactors and they have, for the moment, been frequently passing GO and collecting £200. ICT, meanwhile, having already been dealt two Get Out Of Jail Free cards - Tullochs in 2001ff and the 2010 promotion - no longer have all the houses they used to (ironic statement intended!). They instead have been left stranded in the squalor of Old Kent Road. County have, for the foreseeable future, won the financial war of attrition. On the other hand if the banker there were to withdraw his support it would be a case of Go To (The) Jail (End)... do not pass GO, do not collect £200.

I will conclude by saying that I fully agree with Kingsmills' comments about "following John's demands" and Administration. After all, the extent to which the demands in question were actually followed is a major cause of the current difficulty, so it would seem pretty obvious that going even further along that road would have had even more disastrous consequences. Spending money you don't have and are incapable of generating is the economics of suicide.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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I'm sure the poster(s) dishing out red dots will be along in a second to explain how ICT could magic up some extra cash from nowhere so support Hughes and his, admittedly admirable, aims.

FWIW I obviously don't blame Hughes entirely but the downward spiral started under his tenure and accelerated with Foran, entered complete free-fall when Cameron bottled sacking Foran and pretty much crashed and burned with the appointment of Robbo and the utterly amateur operations over the summer coupled with shocking player recruitment.

It's not one persons fault but a cumulative effect.

Edited by RiG
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10 hours ago, bughtmaster said:

Kingsmills...........My opinion is every bit as good as anybody else;s and I certainly disagree with the certainty of yours.

You are quite right. Your opinion is as valid as anyone's and certainly every bit as valid as mine.

I can back mine up with a few facts; John, as you call him, took over at Falkirk, initially as co manager with Owen Coyle, and dud well with the squad of players he inherited including gaining promotion to the then SPL. Once that squad began to break up he persuaded their chairman to allow him to spend a record sum for them, in bringing in replacements who were almost all players of a certain vintage who had played with JH himself, all were on eye watering salaries and none were a success. Falkirk plummeted down the league and were, somewhat ironically, only saved from relegation by the fact that we were so bad that season under Brewster that we went down instead. When he left, Falkirk were in considerable debt, had a poor and ageing squad, there were credible reports of dressing room division and unrest. Falkirk were relegated shortly thereafter and have yet to recover. Does that sound at all familiar ?

At Hubs, he inherited a decent squad and initially did well with another manager's players even qualifying for Europe. Once he started to recruit his own players their form nosedived and they plummeted down the league playing football that, as well as being ineffective, was eye wateringly boring to watch. It got so bad that JH, despite being a bit of a playing legend for them, was routinely and loudly jeered by Hibs fans. When he was sacked the squad was poor and ageing and there were credible reports of dressing room division and unrest. Hibs, despite their considerable resources, were eventually relegated, ironically again with another ICT connection and have only just recovered. Does that sound familiar ? To be fair, he did source and recruit one decent player in the form of Anthony Stokes.

His time at Livingston was brief and uneventful as he jumped ship as soon as he was lured by the bright lights of Harlepool who, to be fair, are the third biggest team in England with the suffix pool in their name. He was unsuccessful there, the team played unattractive and unsucesful football and he was sacked.

We know all about his time with us. He was very successful with Terry Butcher's players but when that squad broke up, despite the fact that he was given a record sum, by some margin, by the then chairman, he signed a succession of duds. Only two decent players were recruited; Greg Tansey who the club knew all about before and Miles Storey who was, by all accounts, identified by the chairman. JH was eventually sacked amid credible reports of dressing room unrest and division, we were subsequently relegated and have yet to recover.

He went on to manage Raith Rovers who were relegated and he was sacked. Their chairman himself admitted that he had made a mistake in appointing JH and that the players he was allowed to recruit on expensive short term contracts contributed little to the relegation struggle and that there was dressing room division and unrest. Thankfully for Raith, his tenure was too short to cause long term damage and they are quickly recovering.

In summary, as far as I can see, JH has identified and recruited one decent player in his entire managerial career and that player, decent as he Is, is a violent thug who I personally wouldn't want anywhere near our family club.

I think that I have provided just a little evidence in support of my position.

Perhaps you could now enlighten us on the basis of some facts as to why you think we would now be better off if the then chairman had "given John the money he had asked for'.

 

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The Hughes drum has been banged to death from both sides and is somewhat tiresome. We should look back favourably at his tenure of what he achieved on the park - regardless of how the finances are played out afterall the board gave him the money to spend and if that was more or less than others he achieved the maximum he could with what he had. Perhaps he did ask too much looking for additional investment but his role was to take the team as high as possible and achieve whatever he could and if he felt keeping key players and bringing more in then that was his job - its for the board (rightly or wrongly to say yes or no).

The real failing as has been for years is the board and the people of Inverness - the board failed time and time again to capitalise on our success and bring in more footfall, the people of Inverness have failed in supporting their local team and choosing only to show face at finals or OF games.

But now the board since the JH tenure are dragging us backwards, they failed to deal with the management issues that were created by first block JH moving, then failed to support him financially knowing his ambitions. They picked cheap options and bad recruitment at player and management level, allowed lies to be pedalled about players and now the total disarray both on and off-field is driving the remaining fans away.

Be under no illusions the board are firmly to blame for where we are and the sooner there is full transparency and statements of intent & structured plans for moving forwards, not just false promised like the Muirfield Mills money etc then we wont get this club back on track. No fans = no money = constant plummeting through the leagues. 

 

 

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Kingsmills, I think there is a danger you're coming across as an obsessive with an anti-Hughes agenda, while its clear from the various posts you have an 'issue' with him and clearly prefer ICT to have 'ICT people' in charge to give no credit to the guy based on his achievements not just with us but other clubs too regardless of who recruited the teams does seem rather imbalanced. To suggest he was the primary problem with everything wrong at our club is mis-guided afterall someone at the club gave him the job. 

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8 minutes ago, bdu98196 said:

The real failing as has been for years is the board and the people of Inverness - the board failed time and time again to capitalise on our success and bring in more footfall, the people of Inverness have failed in supporting their local team and choosing only to show face at finals or OF games.

A good point. The North Stand was sparse to say the least and the Main Stand - wow. I can't recall a time it was so empty as this picture shows (Taken from an ICT fan on Instagram). It really is depressing stuff.

What happened to the 15,000 fans at the Cup Final? I know a lot will have been day trippers and others can't make it every week but it's quite incredible that we never saw any bounce in attendances after that incredible success. A damning indictment of how little the people of Inverness care about their local team and also how little effort seems to have been made by the club to try and lure folk along on a Saturday.

ICT.png

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