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Blair

Who do you think is the fault of Caley current standard of team?

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Over the years, I've at times tended to be critical of very occasional attenders, generally known in football as "glory hunters" (even Rangers fans complain about them😂😂) but the practice is defensible. Look at it like patronising a certain butcher's shop only for its excellent steak pies. There's a global market out there.

The people of Inverness don't have any moral obligation to owe Caley Thistle a living. Many will even have a minimal or zero interest in football. The club is part of that global market for the community's financial backing and is in competition for that alongside everything from Carlton Bingo to Tesco. All businesses need to create a market for their product in varying degrees of competition with others. Football and Caley Thistle are no more exempt from these fundamental economic forces than the shops closing down in the city centre.

 

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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12 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

If the board had "followed John's demands' we wouldn't just be in the Championship now we'd be in administration.

Probably

Edited by jingsmonty
Deleting text

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11 hours ago, bughtmaster said:

Kingsmills...........My opinion is every bit as good as anybody else;s and I certainly disagree with the certainty of yours.

Personally, I think Kingsmills has history on his side here - Falkirk were relegated & almost went into administration when Yogi demanded (& got) a bigger transfer budget.

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7 hours ago, Kingsmills said:

You are quite right. Your opinion is as valid as anyone's and certainly every bit as valid as mine.

I can back mine up with a few facts; John, as you call him, took over at Falkirk, initially as co manager with Owen Coyle, and dud well with the squad of players he inherited including gaining promotion to the then SPL. Once that squad began to break up he persuaded their chairman to allow him to spend a record sum for them, in bringing in replacements who were almost all players of a certain vintage who had played with JH himself, all were on eye watering salaries and none were a success. Falkirk plummeted down the league and were, somewhat ironically, only saved from relegation by the fact that we were so bad that season under Brewster that we went down instead. When he left, Falkirk were in considerable debt, had a poor and ageing squad, there were credible reports of dressing room division and unrest. Falkirk were relegated shortly thereafter and have yet to recover. Does that sound at all familiar ?

At Hubs, he inherited a decent squad and initially did well with another manager's players even qualifying for Europe. Once he started to recruit his own players their form nosedived and they plummeted down the league playing football that, as well as being ineffective, was eye wateringly boring to watch. It got so bad that JH, despite being a bit of a playing legend for them, was routinely and loudly jeered by Hibs fans. When he was sacked the squad was poor and ageing and there were credible reports of dressing room division and unrest. Hibs, despite their considerable resources, were eventually relegated, ironically again with another ICT connection and have only just recovered. Does that sound familiar ? To be fair, he did source and recruit one decent player in the form of Anthony Stokes.

His time at Livingston was brief and uneventful as he jumped ship as soon as he was lured by the bright lights of Harlepool who, to be fair, are the third biggest team in England with the suffix pool in their name. He was unsuccessful there, the team played unattractive and unsucesful football and he was sacked.

We know all about his time with us. He was very successful with Terry Butcher's players but when that squad broke up, despite the fact that he was given a record sum, by some margin, by the then chairman, he signed a succession of duds. Only two decent players were recruited; Greg Tansey who the club knew all about before and Miles Storey who was, by all accounts, identified by the chairman. JH was eventually sacked amid credible reports of dressing room unrest and division, we were subsequently relegated and have yet to recover.

He went on to manage Raith Rovers who were relegated and he was sacked. Their chairman himself admitted that he had made a mistake in appointing JH and that the players he was allowed to recruit on expensive short term contracts contributed little to the relegation struggle and that there was dressing room division and unrest. Thankfully for Raith, his tenure was too short to cause long term damage and they are quickly recovering.

In summary, as far as I can see, JH has identified and recruited one decent player in his entire managerial career and that player, decent as he Is, is a violent thug who I personally wouldn't want anywhere near our family club.

I think that I have provided just a little evidence in support of my position.

Perhaps you could now enlighten us on the basis of some facts as to why you think we would now be better off if the then chairman had "given John the money he had asked for'.

 

Very harsh and clear agenda against Yogi. His time at Falkirk? You fail to mention he actually managed them for 6 years winning the first division twice (Brockville not up to SPL standard). You also failed to mention that he established them as a solid SPL team. You seem to also have forgotten in your Hughes summary that he got them into Europe and the Scottish Cup Final. In his one full season at Hibs, they finished 4th. Most Hibs fans would be happy with that kind of finish these days. He was unfairly sacked at the beginning of the next season, after a poor start.  Livingston? Steadied the ship. Hartlepool? Already bottom of league and if you speak to any Hartlepool fan they'd say that they improved under him and nearly pulled off the great escape. Of course, you know about his time at Inverness. But it was Butchers squad so Yogi shouldn't get any credit I suppose eh? Rovers? Already doomed when he took over. Overall, his managerial record is quite impressive but then again, all the people that were against his appointment in the first place need someone to blame now for the state of the club.

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The trouble with I  relying on rich people who suddenly get the urge to run a football club, is that when they pull the plug or they rob the till, all hell is let loose.  Recent events  in the 2nd city of the once British Empire show that to be self evident. My own former club Bury had to be saved by a fan based buy out not because the club spent too much , but because the owner lost all his money speculating in the city. All I can say is Kingsmill and Charles are dead right. We have been lucky in the past to do as well as we have, Was not Aberdeen bailed out recently by the tune of 17 million pounds. Financing them to get our players on the cheap.  A travesty if there ever was one. I got into a row  after the last Aberdeen match, because I piloted out they were only good because they were financed . I think that it is a problem right across football especially in Scotland, Clubs basically have to generate their own funds unless they are lucky or they have a fan base to fill Ibrox park, and they struggle to keep up

Did JH not get sacked at Hartlepool , I am thinking from memory here, the seed of Hartlepool's demise might have originated from his tenure.

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3 minutes ago, Laurence said:

Did JH not get sacked at Hartlepool , I am thinking from memory here, the seed of Hartlepool's demise might have originated from his tenure.

He was sacked by Harlepool.

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8 minutes ago, Laurence said:

Did JH not get sacked at Hartlepool , I am thinking from memory here, the seed of Hartlepool's demise might have originated from his tenure.

They sacked him at the end of the season, yes. He took over half way through the season when they were well adrift, had a mini revival but couldn't keep them up. Results improved under him but Pool fans say it was too late. Perhaps if he had been appointed a month earlier.  Their forums at the time wanted him to stay to try and gain promotion and were surprised. It is similar to us with Butcher. We improved under him but still got relegated, but the club didn't sack him (rightly so)

Edited by Keybaird Warrior

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From what I remember, Hughes told the Hartlepool board at the end of that season that wanted to replace the entire the coaching staff and about 90% of the players.  They decided just to get rid of him instead, but they had missed staying up quite narrowly after being miles behind when he took over.

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22 hours ago, bughtmaster said:

Kingsmills...........My opinion is every bit as good as anybody else;s and I certainly disagree with the certainty of yours.

Sadly tho Kingsmills is correct

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Not sure what administration will bring in Scotland  

Did not Airdrie get punished in a draconian manner some years back. We all know about Rangers. Leeds in England had numerous points taken off them.

I went to an away game with Bury at Brighton and had to suffer the embarrassing sight of watching the home fans throwing money into buckets , to help save the Bury club.

Fans were being asked to buy bricks in the stand walls  , and pay for seats with their name on them.  So embarassing

Whatever happens administration must be avoided at all costs

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I will be fair Charles Bannerman  I don't have  by any means  your knowledge on Caley but here where I stand. When Caley won the cup and beat Falkirk they were meant to have gained something like £500,000 from it and I  also  did read before that Caley was a club which was actually in profit  I can't remember where I read it off but it said that Caley was in profit by around £100,000  so I thought to be fair the club was doing okay or good money wise since in fairness for any club to be in profit being a football club is very unlikely . I also knew of the football club often getting players out of contact so they would  not have to pay big money for them so I thought overall the club to be fair  money wise was in  decent position .

The whole Caley having money problems to be honest came out of nowhere for me

Thanks for the wonderful reply back on Caley I did find it very interesting to read.

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One thing this thread screams out is bring back terry butcher!

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It's a fair question Blair. 

Personally I think we've slightly been victims of our own success. After winning the cup (and reaching another final), aside from Christie, we completely failed to capitalise financially on the transfer of players their success attracted from elsewhere. So many good players have been lost for nothing. 

Unfortunately many of these good players were brought in through excellent scouting/trial work from Butchers teams tenure for next to nothing - if you then fail to profit from players leaving you have to try and replace them for next to nothing. It's near impossible to continue to find like for like gems from free transfers and released youths. Which is our market. 

So we've unsuccessfully been able to adjust to the loss of key players and not been able to replace them (we'd never replace Christie tbh). 

The board in some respects have perhaps shown complacency in this respect. They also did not manage to capitalise on our cup win commercially. They never truly seized the opportunity. Instead of attracting a new fan base we've lost fans. 

It's only really in hindsight that Foran turned out to be a poor manager. The club didn't act quickly enough in that respect perhaps.... But how often are clubs criticised for being trigger happy?It's a tough call. They held firm. It didn't work. 

Perhaps in the long run relegation might be good for us. Not financially sure, but it gives us the chance to start afresh. We might not be promoted this season but there's no reason not to build for next and be optimistic about our chances. 

We believe. 

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Good question indeed, Blair. Let's first state that a club playing high level Scottish football in front of 3-odd000 in Inverness isn't fundamentally financially viable, before going back a bit to start the financial thread.

 Input from Tulloch disposed of a £2.3M debt in 2000 and thereafter, combined with good housekeeping, got the club playing SPL football debt free in a compliant stadium in Inverness. Even by 2006/07, I understand that Charlie Christie had a £650pw wage cap imposed on him. Thereafter, with the club needing to stand on its own two feet, it became a case of relying on windfalls to balance the books (roughly). These principally took the form of performance windfalls for league placings and cup runs, player transfers - most conspicuously Ryan Christie's - and the sale of the Social Club. CJuice raises a valid issue about other possible transfer revenue and, albeit in the context of guys simply going for nothing on pre-contracts, performance in this respect would be worth evaluating - remembering also that your team takes a hit every time you sell a player.

I get the impression that expanding player budgets began under Butcher who seems to have been adept at persuading chairmen - but in return made some very effective signings and brought in performance income. The real problem, in my view, began with Yogi and continued under Richie Foran. Here the signings were far poorer value for possibly still increasing money and, I suspect, began to pressurise the finances - with decreasing effect on the field after winning the Cup, largely with Butcher players. These were replaced by YH and RF with inferior but at least as expensive signings who effectively earned the club a very expensive relegation.

This year's accounts - presumably due soon - should make interesting reading although they are never required to be as revealing as many would like. Notwithstanding, they are likely to continue a story of the legacy of the club having, under YH and RF, paid more and more for less and less.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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We generally do not have local young players coming through the ranks and playing for the first team.

If our team could pick the best available local youngsters, and could then train and nurture them up to Championship or SPFL standard, then we could probably sustain SPFL football in Inverness.

Buying in players from all over the UK is not financially sustainable.

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44 minutes ago, buckett said:

We generally do not have local young players coming through the ranks and playing for the first team.

If our team could pick the best available local youngsters, and could then train and nurture them up to Championship or SPFL standard, then we could probably sustain SPFL football in Inverness.

Buying in players from all over the UK is not financially sustainable.

Great thought, Buckett, but I'm not sure we have the human assets at our disposal. The aim there is to get ICT into the top, ballpark, 100 teams in the UK using local boys. That would imply that we would need local access to at least 1% of the UK population which comes to over 600,000. We have nothing close to that on our doorstep, and that's before you consider that there's a rival club just 15 miles away - albeit with a rather different recruitment strategy!

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I would agree  Council Juice  that Caley was in a way a victim by the success they made and some of the players to me were not sold well such as Billy Mckay he was sold to Dundee united  then sold him again for a higher price very shortly after.  I would agree fully with what you said Charles.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Blair said:

I would agree  Council Juice  that Caley was in a way a victim by the success they made and some of the players to me were not sold well such as Billy Mckay he was sold to Dundee united  then sold him again for a higher price very shortly after.  I would agree fully with what you said Charles.

 

 

Billy McKay has never been a Dundee United player other than on loan and the only time he has ever moved with a transfer fee involved was when we sold him to Wigan.

Edited by Kingsmills

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The glory hunter theory evidently comes in to play financially but I don't think that we can blame individuals. Running a football club is a collective. To me what has gone awry falls into three main categories. Fitness levels have been woeful in the last two seasons. We were streets ahead of rivals in the glory years, especially in the Brewster reign. Our scouting system was second to none. Look at the list of former players and where they are now. And thirdly it is our reluctance to play youngsters. Ryan Christie is a good example of what can happen if you give them a run in the team. I also feel that our younger players do not get to play at a high enough standard or even in a consistent league set up. It has always surprised me why we have not adopted a Highland League club as a feeder team.

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15 minutes ago, IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER said:

The glory hunter theory evidently comes in to play financially but I don't think that we can blame individuals. Running a football club is a collective. To me what has gone awry falls into three main categories. Fitness levels have been woeful in the last two seasons. We were streets ahead of rivals in the glory years, especially in the Brewster reign. Our scouting system was second to none. Look at the list of former players and where they are now. And thirdly it is our reluctance to play youngsters. Ryan Christie is a good example of what can happen if you give them a run in the team. I also feel that our younger players do not get to play at a high enough standard or even in a consistent league set up. It has always surprised me why we have not adopted a Highland League club as a feeder team.

I really dont understand why we dont have a relationship with Clach where our youngsters play regular first team football.

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2 hours ago, caleyboy said:

did county get him on a free?

Yes. Wigan released him from his contract.

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1 hour ago, caleyboy said:

I really dont understand why we dont have a relationship with Clach where our youngsters play regular first team football.

Entirely agree. I've wondered that for over twenty years now.

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On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 8:32 PM, Charles Bannerman said:

Good question indeed, Blair. Let's first state that a club playing high level Scottish football in front of 3-odd000 in Inverness isn't fundamentally financially viable, before going back a bit to start the financial thread.

 Input from Tulloch disposed of a £2.3M debt in 2000 and thereafter, combined with good housekeeping, got the club playing SPL football debt free in a compliant stadium in Inverness. Even by 2006/07, I understand that Charlie Christie had a £650pw wage cap imposed on him. Thereafter, with the club needing to stand on its own two feet, it became a case of relying on windfalls to balance the books (roughly). These principally took the form of performance windfalls for league placings and cup runs, player transfers - most conspicuously Ryan Christie's - and the sale of the Social Club. CJuice raises a valid issue about other possible transfer revenue and, albeit in the context of guys simply going for nothing on pre-contracts, performance in this respect would be worth evaluating - remembering also that your team takes a hit every time you sell a player.

I get the impression that expanding player budgets began under Butcher who seems to have been adept at persuading chairmen - but in return made some very effective signings and brought in performance income. The real problem, in my view, began with Yogi and continued under Richie Foran. Here the signings were far poorer value for possibly still increasing money and, I suspect, began to pressurise the finances - with decreasing effect on the field after winning the Cup, largely with Butcher players. These were replaced by YH and RF with inferior but at least as expensive signings who effectively earned the club a very expensive relegation.

This year's accounts - presumably due soon - should make interesting reading although they are never required to be as revealing as many would like. Notwithstanding, they are likely to continue a story of the legacy of the club having, under YH and RF, paid more and more for less and less.

In the end of club of ICT's size needs to have a 'selling' policy to survive, whilst sustaining any sort of premiership ambitions. So we need to identify those players who've we bought in, that look like having future resell value and ensure they are given longer (rolling) contract extensions quite quickly...guys like Bell, Mulraney, and Donaldson probably fit that profile. Obviously there's a limit to how many we can do that with, and there has to be an acceptance from supporters that this is a necessary evil. Mind you transfer fees of £50 to 200K don't fit the bill, and we would still need to be able to employ one or two 'old hands' to steady the ship.

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4 hours ago, Eagle4Caley said:

In the end of club of ICT's size needs to have a 'selling' policy to survive, whilst sustaining any sort of premiership ambitions. So we need to identify those players who've we bought in, that look like having future resell value and ensure they are given longer (rolling) contract extensions quite quickly...guys like Bell, Mulraney, and Donaldson probably fit that profile. Obviously there's a limit to how many we can do that with, and there has to be an acceptance from supporters that this is a necessary evil. Mind you transfer fees of £50 to 200K don't fit the bill, and we would still need to be able to employ one or two 'old hands' to steady the ship.

we would need transfer fees of at least £250k every year. one final point re John Hughes, he didn't spend any money, it was Mr Cameron and his fellow directors - full stop.

Edited by caleyboy

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