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Guest Suspicious Mind

Not managed to view the board for a couple of days.

Turned on the PC this morning and could not believe what I was reading. Sophia, whoever he or she is, getting attacked for being raising an issue which is a problem, this behaviour being defended as in some way comic and finally the issue descends into farce. To say I was surprised by some of the responses is an understatement.

There is a problem at our ground and I applaud Sophia for doing something about. To my shame, I've sat back and listened to some loud mouth American Invention shout abuse at Nakamura and done nothing about it. You know the usual stuff that was played out on 70's TV which, apparently is still acceptable at TCS (no wonder people think we're hicks!). This was all played out in front of two young ST holders of Far Eastern origin. But the loudmouth's pals enjoyed it!

Before this I've heard plenty of sarcastic comments aimed at a black players. You know the type, not loud enough to be heard by everyone but just a circle of 10-15 who then chuckle loudly. Often involving the jungle or lips or bananas. The very stuff that was all the rage in 70's TV, which some of us choose still to defend.

Anyway, I will sit down no more and will from now on report any matter that I deem to be racist to the police even if the "George and Mildred Fan Club" think it's harmless fun. Sophia, I apologise for not being about to back you up and praise you for standing up to much of the comment that came your way.

That's it for me with Fan's Forums.

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I think it was the result of the ridiculous postings by the "usual suspects" that caused the thread to be locked.

Perhaps the garbage can be filtered from the thread and the actual decent content retained because it is a pretty serious topic.

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And its feckin goodbye from the "usual suspect" - the problem with the site now is that it is mainly populated with little feckin pompous, politically correct erseholes who have no feckin sense of humour and feel that there opinion is always right. :010:

There was'nt any actual "decent content" apart from Sophia's opening statement - the content quickly deteriorated into the usual name baiting and personal point scoring - and that includes YOU - RIG. What the feck was this thread doing on the Football forum?

If any of yas had the brains to notice I usually start spamming when the subject matter is either boring, irrelevant or I feel it is becoming OTT and farcical. People had different views on what is a very, very sensitive subject. People have different views on what is racist or not - or who is feckin racist. IF I was an administrator ( and I am being serious) I would have moved it half way through page 1 with a feckin warning or closed it down.

It saddens me that Suspicious Minds has taken this step in reaction to a thread which actually started off as being quite supportive. DBS comes in with a more personal, philosophical view - which he is entitled to - and he gets feckin hammered. Again because it was not about feckin football.

Anyone who knows me - and notices the colour of my son - will understand that I would be rite behing Sophia on this - but the personna IHE is an intellectual prankster - Have a think about the irony and connection of the pictures RIG. My sole aim was to close the thread down and I succeeded.

And now I have posted on this thread - it will probably be moved or closed down too.  :011:

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Blah

Easier than I thought  :003:

Anyway, main point is that a very serious thread was very rapidly taken off topic by a series of childish posts which had very little to do with the topic and the last couple certainly aren't fit for this section of the site which is easily accessible for children.

I still feel the topic warrants debate but that the irrelevant posts be removed from the thread and put into Anything Goes where they might be more suited  :003:

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Although I think there were a number of valid points made in the topic, it was closed because it degenerated into personal abuse and was taken way off-topic by some users. There was no single poster responsible for its closure, it was a 'team effort'. Well done to all involved  :007:

I have no objection to a fresh thread being started - in the ICT forum as it is an ICT related topic - but will also have no hesitation in closing it (and any other thread) that descends into abuse/spamming.

SM - I ask that you reconsider .... I know who you are, and your contributions to the board are welcomed. I would like to think you and others will be around to call out "<insert prefix here>-ists" of all variations ........

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SM - I ask that you reconsider .... I know who you are, and your contributions to the board are welcomed. I would like to think you and others will be around to call out "<insert prefix here>-ists" of all variations ........

I'll agree with that, although you do post a lot of pesh I generally enjoy reading your points of view.  There is a lot of things I don't agree with but at least you argue your case well and I think most people on here value your opinion.

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Guest Get_off_the_park_Wyness!

And its feckin goodbye from the "usual suspect" - the problem with the site now is that it is mainly populated with little feckin pompous, politically correct erseholes who have no feckin sense of humour and feel that there opinion is always right

NO IHE, the problem is spammers like you who fill the threads with garbage. You need to stop trying to hijack everything with your stupid pictures and disgusting humour. So many times I've come on here during my lunch break at work and had to close threads because of some of the innapropriate images that come up. It's ridiculous.

I don't want to get into a slagging match, but I think somebody really needs to say something.

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I personally think that although the original post was rightly against any form of racism (sophia's), it has done the club, fans, or this site no favours and maybe that was the intention. I don't wish to sweep anything under the carpet or bury my head in the sand, but jeeeezo, let's get back to reality and get on with life. There are much more important things goung on around us that need addressing, but there are not enough websites to keep up with them. People are getting stabbed, bottled and beaten up by wideo drunken and wrecked dopeheads every weekend and we are getting all upset over a few word. Unacceptable I know, but worth slagging people off for, I don't know. Using this forum as a medium to air your thoughts on this subject is not the best option. Go to the police if you really are that concerned by a throw away remark borne out of ignorance or stupidity............but to start a racist campaign on this site is just stirring it up.

rant over for now. <climbs down from his soap box smiley>

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Agreed TM4TJ....

There are far more serious issues to consider than the fairly innocuous comment heard on Saturday, as described by Sophia....

What I've seen or heard of Caley fans in the relatively short time I have been a supporter, comes nowhere near the bile, sectarian & racist,  that is regularly heard when the OF pay us a visit....

There is NOT a racist problem with ICT supporters....

I've heard more offensive comments from an audience at a concert by the Amadeus String Quartet, than the one Sophia heard on Saturday....   

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I have already let the moderators know my feelings about the events of the last week or so (abuse, off-topic postings, spamming etc), but have decided it is valid to let everyone know...... Some may think my comments are melodramatic, that is your call, not mine. However, I can assure you that the following comments were not made lightly and came directly from the heart.

This first comment was in response to a question from one of the mods asking whether it might be valid to 'filter' the comments in the other thread and re-open it for reasoned debate.

"I believe the debate to be a valid one as you will probably see from my own comments, but it was not just IHE who caused it to be shut down. There was more than one person starting to throw out personal insults and I have feckin had it with this type of crap. Right now, i am a hairs breadth away from putting the forums into admin mode PERMANENTLY."

After a little consideration of my initial comments, this was my next comment to the mods ....

"I may need to walk away from the forums for a few days ...... if I dont, I may do or say something I will later regret and have to walk away from them permanently. The bill came in for the renewal of the domain name the other day, and for the first time in 14 years i found myself questioning whether it was worth the hassle ........"

After ruminating on this subject in the car on the way to work, I have one further comment to make and it is as follows ......

When this site was official I acknowledge that we were - at times - over zealous with the administration - some might say censorship - of the forums. We had no choice in this. We have tried like **** not to go to that place since relaunching the site as an unofficial one only to be continually 'tested' by a small but persistent group of users who seem to take pleasure in either ruining threads, slinging out personal insults or both.

As of right now that stops. We can 'ban' users if we need to although we honestly do not want to do that. However we also have another alternative which is to remove posting privileges for a period of time and we will most definitely begin to use this more frequently if the spamming/abuse continues. For the avoidance of all doubt, be aware that we will impose this sanction on anybody we think is abusing the terms and conditions of the forum, whether they are a regular poster, an occasional visitor, or a brand new member. I am sick and tired of all this garbage and if it means we lose a few posters then so be it, they will likely be replaced with others who can actually hold a conversation without it slipping to the levels it has done more recently.

TM4TJ - good post (mostly). I agree there are lots of things going on in this world that warrant our attention more than a 'throwaway' remark at a football stadium. However, I believe that Sophia - who I disagree with a lot of the time - was right to bring it up. For my own sins, I may have gone over-the-top in my 'name and shame' comment as I do not know whether the person making the comment made it as a racial comment or whether they were coming from a place of ignorance or stupidity but ultimately this does not excuse the comment.

In either event, I feel the initial post was valid as were some of the comments that followed it - even those I didnt agree with. It is a highly emotive subject and you are possibly right that this may not be the place to discuss it in depth, but as it was an 'incident' at a Caley Thistle match then I also cant say it shouldnt have been posted.

When it comes to racism, there is no 'easy place' - condemn it and on one side you are seen as being 'PC' or 'over compensating', tell someone they are over-reacting or that there is nothing wrong with a comment and you may be called racist yourself. In this case, whichever side of the fence you find yourself on, I think we could possibly all agree that the comment was, at best, "inappropriate" and that the person should perhaps have been taken to task for it. To allow it, either explicitly or passively perhaps lets that person thinks they can get away with worse the next time, to vilify and ostracise the commenter might be going a little too far.

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There is NOT a racist problem with ICT supporters....

I would tend to agree with this on the whole - although I would perhaps adjust it to say that there is no problem with 99.9% of ICT supporters as we do have a few neanderthals too. I have seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears.

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I'm glad this topic has been re-opened; it's an important one because a) the Motherwell incident showed that Scottish fans are capable of explicit racism and b) as fans we need to work out what is and isn't acceptable behaviour. The idea of 'self-policing' seems infinitely preferable than the alternative of waiting for stewards or police to step in and stop racist behaviour.

As get_off_the_park said, "the question is whether you can joke about race and where do you draw the lines?". A comment such as "he couldn't see him 'cos he wasn't smiling" is obviously more problematic than calling someone a 'black b*stard' (which most people would probably consider racist). Was it intended as racist? Does the intention matter if someone feels offended by it anyway? (And, more confusingly, if a player is not offended by being called a 'black b*stard', does that stop it being racist?) Clearly the 'intention' and 'effect' of comments is up for debate.

So, "why all the fuss about racism"? Well clearly there's a difference between racism and making jokes about someone with ginger hair, bonde hair etc. Race is a far stronger marker of someone's identity than their hair colour. To belittle someone's race is to belittle the very basis of their identity, their sense of self-worth and their place in a society in which they are (almost always) not a dominant member. Racism appears, at one end of a scale, reflected in jokes about race and, at the other, in the denial of job opportunities, resentment of 'foreigners', attacks on asylum seekers, immigrants and so on. It is a direct cause of many of the so-called "more important things going on in the world today". (And does it need to be said that these are not issues for people with red hair or, heaven forbid, Jimmy Calderwood and his orange hues?) 

On a personal note, I went through primary school being called a paki, brown b*stard etc. and have since been spat at on the street, but I would like to be able to raise kids in an environment where they don't have to put up with that sort of thing. The majority of people are not racist (in the strict sense of displaying hate to people of another race), but proper dialogue is important; people need to spend time considering their behaviour, to consider what they think is appropriate, as society's attitudes change constantly (e.g. I think there's a pretty clear historical progression in the west from allowing slavery, to enforcing segragation, to granting voting rights, to discussing racism and race issues). This board is just one place to do this, and hopefully without any future witch hunts or rushes to brand people as 'racist' or 'fascist'.

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good post 'nude...'

The majority of people are not racist (in the strict sense of displaying hate to people of another race), but proper dialogue is important; people need to spend time considering their behaviour, to consider what they think is appropriate, as society's attitudes change constantly (e.g. I think there's a pretty clear historical progression in the west from allowing slavery, to enforcing segregation, to granting voting rights, to discussing racism and race issues).

You have put exactly what I was trying to say in the other thread far more eloquently than I did.

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the reason i didnt take it more seriously towards the end is because talking about racism on ictonline is like being diagnosed with cancer in an ice cream van, by a clown on viagra, at christmas

its not the place or audience.  if anybody heard the comment they should write to the club and take it from there, topics as yesterdays will only end up in the press

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I am sorry to say that Sophia, SM and others are correct. I have often been surprised and saddened by abuse directed by home " supporters" against opposition players based on nothing other than their ethnic origins.

Of course the problem is much less obvious than the bile pouring out of the visiting Old Firm hoards but it's the thin end of the wedge and, as such, more than worhy of comment and rebuke. I don't want to have to be constantly explaing the ill considered comments of bigots to my children who have come along to watch a game of football.

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Guest sophia

The motivation for starting the thread was to give this forum a chance to display our disgust at racist abuse.

Far from showing us in a bad light, it was designed to show that we are above all that stuff.

I counselled one poster to consider the press when he posted, so no "agenda" from this quarter.

Until it was unjustifiably sabotaged, the debate was robust but unexpected as I thought it was, ahem, a black and white issue. It seems I was wrong.

If I was too robust for some, well sorry.

I would have struck off the off topic stuff and left the thread open, but here we are.

I don't agree that a letter to the club is necessarily the only option open to me, this forum should be brave enough to tackle important issues.

The fall off in numbers here is probably down to some being fed up with some of the debate and the subject matter. I have anecdotal evidence that this is the case. Its to Scotty's credit that he persists. I certainly welcome the opportunity he affords me to express myself via this space. Thank you Scotty.

Anyway, no need to sweep stuff we are uncomfortable with under the carpet, thats like teenage girls going away to stay with an auntie for a few months.

I've never seen anybody glassed or bottled, but I do know what I heard on Saturday and I do know that it has relevance to us and our club.

I was actually surprised when I logged on on Sunday that nobody else had posted on it.

Bear with me:

Standing behind the goal in the Howden End, Winter 1990, midweek game and the ballboy keeps shining his torch in the face of my friend from Bangalore. I'm sure the boy wouldn't know what racism was (is) but I do know that my friend was singled out because of his skin colour.

How would you feel if you spent your life being picked on like this?

I got a small taste of it recently when I found myself amongst a group of colleagues from another country for an extended spell. The under current was palpable. It felt lonely being alone.

I wasn't spat at though, I don't suppose many ICT supporters have on grounds of their skin colour.

Now I don't think that we have a huge racism problem in this part of the world, rather ignorance borne out of not having a lot of "new" people joining us.

We live in different times now, no space for "I've paid my money so I'll say what I like" or avoiding getting caught saying out loud what you secretly think.

In fact the real challenge for some is to stop thinking what you cannot now say.

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I don't think anybody posting on here is condoning what happened, and those who did it or know who did it will be too sheepish to come on here and admit it, after all it is not acceptable behaviour and has been rightly highlighted by upstanding members of the community.

It should be dealt with in an appropriate manner by the club and steps taken to ensure no repeat. But if those that heard or saw what happened can not or will not identify the culprit, then it will be difficult to police. Sophia, I understand your reasons/sentiments for raising this delicate issue, but if you take a look at bebo, you will see why I think there are more pressing issues needing addressed at a local level. My son has been the victim of a bottle attack for no other reason than he was not with the majority crowd, bottled by a seventeen year old girl. He escaped lightly as the bottle of Baileys never broke, but his eye was swollen for three weeks.

We all have our own agendas.

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Still do not think that this forum is the place fer that. Look what it has done already !! I can relate closely to the experiences of yerself and nudeasthenews. I work in a multicultural team and have clients of many different races and cultures. Look around the crowd in Sneck - look around the streets - look at the team - not many black or ethnic faces are there - and that is what breeds ignorance.

Carry on if ya must.

And as fer Johnboy and RIG - yer non humerous responses really tickle me - Johnboy who had clearly the most racist undertone post last nite and RIG the proverbial coward.  :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:

And get off the park Wyness should be renamed - Get a life Wyness.

Clacher holiday and M4TJ have got it spot on.

Oh - and Everton were robbed. I abused Lescott for a terrible defensive mistake and El Hadji Diouff for being an absolute ******.  :001:

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And as fer Johnboy and RIG - yer non humerous responses really tickle me - Johnboy who had clearly the most racist undertone post last nite and RIG the proverbial coward.  :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:

What are you talking about now?  :confused05:

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The motivation for starting the thread was to give this forum a chance to display our disgust at racist abuse.

I take issue with that on several counts. First of all - what is racism? The correct term is 'racialism', it basically alludes to the act of ascribing behavioural characteristics (either positive or negative) to an individual based upon his or her ethnicity. Someone expressing the old cliche that black people have good rhythm would be a good example of a racialist. Can you please explain to me how the accused's comments were actually racialist in any meaningful, objective way?

Secondly, I have a horrible feeling that this entire issue is being turned into a giant propaganda campaign. A bad joke by a punter at a football match seems to be being used as a stepping stone by some to coercing ICT fans into a collective orgy of guilt and sychophantic praise of the new official state religion of multiculturalism. Nobody should have to start their posts with an innoculative "I condemn all racism ever!" but that seems to be what some people expect.

Reading some of the hysterical attacks on the punter in the original thread, where his arrest, collective denigration and ritual humiliation were demanded by some individuals, I was struck by the parallels to the  'lynch mobs' of the dark ages, zealously wanting to show how virtuous the were by burning witches and heretics at the stake.

Now I don't think that we have a huge racism problem in this part of the world, rather ignorance borne out of not having a lot of "new" people joining us.

I'm sorry but I find that offensive. It sounds to me like you are suggesting that Inverness is too white. Is that not completely racist? Are are you saying that Europeans on their own are deficient somehow? Would it therefore be OK to say that Jamaica is too black, that Pakistan is too Pakistani, or that Israel is too Jewish? The double standards of Political Correctness are staggering.

In fact the real challenge for some is to stop thinking what you cannot now say.

Where do you get off telling people what to think? I guess Orwell's 1984 was only 23 years out.

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This thread is in danger of heading along the same lines as the one which was closed.

For those in any doubt let me re-iterate.......

Unrelated personal comments or personal attacks/jibes at other site users WILL NO LONGER BE TOLERATED.

If you have a personal issue with another user then please use the Private Messaging facility available to sort out your differences in private.  Failing that then please refer any personal issue you have with a statement directed at you to a site moderator or administrator for them to deal with accordingly.

The last thing we want to do is start removing people's ability to post or contribute to discussions or to have to place people on full moderationwhere their posts have to be approved before they appear on the site, but if you are unable to follow a few simple guidelines which are in place to make this site more welcoming and open to all then we will intervene and take action to ensure that the few are not spoiling things for the many.

We're not interested in schoolyard arguments of "but he started it" - just as happens on the football pitch, if you choose to retaliate and overstep the mark you will be subjected to the same sanctions as the original offender.

If anyone has any issue or questions with anything I have said, then contact me via e.mail or via personal message.  I will not enter into any dialogue with individuals on the matter in the forum.

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There is NOT a racist problem with ICT supporters....

I would tend to agree with this on the whole - although I would perhaps adjust it to say that there is no problem with 99.9% of ICT supporters as we do have a few neanderthals too. I have seen it with my own eyes and heard it with my own ears.

Please Scotty, now you're making racist assumptions about neanderthals.  To the best of my knowledge there is absolutely no evidence available to justify that!

Seriously, though, while I would defend to the death Sophia's right to express her opinions regarding racism I would also defend to the death any racist's right to express their opinions as long as it is done in a reasoned manner and does not descend into personal abuse.

As for abusive bile on this forum, there has been far more expressed against Ross County fans than there ever has been against other races be they Afro, Afro Carribean, Indian, Pakistani, Japanese or even, dare I say it English or American.

We all have our opinions and we're entitled to hold them and to express them - as long as we are prepared to accept the consequences.  If you don't like someone's actions, tell them!

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Quote :  From WeeStie...

Seriously, though, while I would defend to the death Sophia's right to express her opinions regarding racism I would also defend to the death any racist's right to express their opinions as long as it is done in a reasoned manner and does not descend into personal abuse.

Really..??..!!

So it's ok for racists to express their opinions..?  :024:

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