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Gaelic Learners


Northern_jaggie

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I think the two of you have hit upon the reason for gaelic's demise, television which is almost exclusively broadcast in English has taken over the lives of everyone. Kids are not interested in learning a dying language much at all when so much of their day is taken up by a language which most others speak. Call it progress, call it evolution but gaelic is dying and very few desire it's continuation with the exception of those who will not progress.

Fixed it for you!

Your edit may well be correct and if so then what is the point in pumping money into gaelic education? Is it not more sensible to divert that money towards education in subjects which will benefit these kids in their future?

Like Polish..

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Your edit may well be correct and if so then what is the point in pumping money into gaelic education? Is it not more sensible to divert that money towards education in subjects which will benefit these kids in their future?

Aye but it will benefit them - according to Smee they can all use it to get cushy jobs for the boys at ?38 000 :014: :D

Seriously though, this can be answered on so many levels. I refer you to my post on the first page where I said that the kids nowadays only want to know 'is this in the test?' They now have a cynical approach to learning facts which is seen as 'sad' and they are encouraged in this by the easy availability of the internet.

I submit that, if the adults take this approach too, then we're all sunk. Schools do try to provide vocational education as far as possible but anybody in education will want to aim much higher.

Mantis, I am not pro or anti Gaelic but I remember about 30 years ago (when there were more Gaelic speakers) there were more university graduates, per head of population, from the Western Isles than anywhere else in the UK. The point I am trying to make is that if you are fluent in more than one language, whichever language that might be, the brain is exercised more thus possibly leading to more intelligence.

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"Aye but it will benefit them - according to Smee they can all use it to get cushy jobs for the boys at ?38 000 laugh.gif laugh.gif "

Mantis......I felt the need to go to great lengths to prove a point here. You are quick to ridicule my post regarding the Gaelic translator and general self preservation society attitude that i made some time ago.

Well...its time to eat some humble pie my freind.....as i have found proof to back up my claim. Note Also the appointment of the Gaelic Development Officer, on a starting pay of ?43 000. This was the two posts being created a few yrs back....to which i reffered to on this site before, i just got the details a little muddled up!

http://www.highland-news.co.uk/news/fullst...aelic_post.html

Edited by SMEE
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Smee, why exactly do you feel the need to go to great lengths, what point are you trying to prove......that you personally have great issues with people learning or preserving the language? Why not have a little tolerance on how others would like to lead their own lives? :) I admire the commitment - and salaries - of those who strive for the survival of the language. :D As you seem to have done all your research, are all these salaries and investment in the preservation of the language being diverted directly from mainstream education, or is the money coming from elsewhere. I would have thought there would be seperate budgets/grants for cultural issues like these.

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Smee, why exactly do you feel the need to go to great lengths, what point are you trying to prove......that you personally have great issues with people learning or preserving the language? Why not have a little tolerance on how others would like to lead their own lives? :) I admire the commitment - and salaries - of those who strive for the survival of the language. :D As you seem to have done all your research, are all these salaries and investment in the preservation of the language being diverted directly from mainstream education, or is the money coming from elsewhere. I would have thought there would be seperate budgets/grants for cultural issues like these.

Yness...

It's an obscenity that tax-payers money is being squandered on something like this, at this time.

Did you read the article? At least try and read this part of it and explain to me why the futherance and promotion of the gaelic language is more worthwhile that keeping open a centre for the homeless.

Furious Independent Highland councillor Jim Crawford, who represents Inverness South, said: "It's absolutely ridiculous to have Gaelic translators at a time when we are running a ?20 million deficit in the Highland region.

"Gaelic has been imposed on us. Ninety nine percent of the population in the Highlands can't speak Gaelic and there are probably only one or two per cent that can read it."

He added: "There are even public notices in Gaelic for places like Milton of Leys. This promotion of Gaelic is an absolute waste of money. If people want to learn Gaelic they can do a course, they don't have to have the language thrust upon them.

"It's total nonsense to spend money on this when we have just had to close a shelter for the homeless."

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Johnboy, I did read the article, but I feel funding for these seperate causes are entirely separate budgetry issues. I'm sure if you or I had some control over distributing grants/funding we would both find more worthwhile causes "in our opinion". Homelessness is a social issue, that I'm sure is dealt with seperately, there is only so much money you can throw at this problem, before it becomes counter productive. Preservation of your/our heritage is an entirely different issue, and I'm sure are both budgeted accordingly. To try and use one as an argument against the other is irresponsible behaviour by the councillers and undervalues both. You and I know we don't have to look very far to see a lot more obscene squandering of billions of pounds of taxpayers money, than protecting what is - like it or not - part of your heritage.

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Johnboy, I did read the article, but I feel funding for these seperate causes are entirely separate budgetry issues. I'm sure if you or I had some control over distributing grants/funding we would both find more worthwhile causes "in our opinion". Homelessness is a social issue, that I'm sure is dealt with seperately, there is only so much money you can throw at this problem, before it becomes counter productive. Preservation of your/our heritage is an entirely different issue, and I'm sure are both budgeted accordingly. To try and use one as an argument against the other is irresponsible behaviour by the councillers and undervalues both. You and I know we don't have to look very far to see a lot more obscene squandering of billions of pounds of taxpayers money, than protecting what is - like it or not - part of your heritage.

That's a very good answer!

I don't think you contributed anything to that thread entitled : "What's your job"

I'd suggest you must be pursuing a career in politics....

If not - you really should be!

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Johnboy, I did read the article, but I feel funding for these seperate causes are entirely separate budgetry issues. I'm sure if you or I had some control over distributing grants/funding we would both find more worthwhile causes "in our opinion". Homelessness is a social issue, that I'm sure is dealt with seperately, there is only so much money you can throw at this problem, before it becomes counter productive. Preservation of your/our heritage is an entirely different issue, and I'm sure are both budgeted accordingly. To try and use one as an argument against the other is irresponsible behaviour by the councillers and undervalues both. You and I know we don't have to look very far to see a lot more obscene squandering of billions of pounds of taxpayers money, than protecting what is - like it or not - part of your heritage.

It's not a question of "like it or not", more a question of it is or it isn't. Please don't try and tell me that every Scottish person has a Gaelic heritage, as the Gaelic gang would like everyone to believe. Gaelic seems to have been trotted out these days as the "official" heritage of Scotland, when quiet simply it is only a small piece of heritage in a small area of Scotland, not Scotland as a whole. I do not, as far as I know have a "Gaelic heritage", so please don't tell me I do.

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The old "different budgets" argument used by many a politician and councillor to justify spending in one area when people suggest it would be more worthwhile spent elsewhere.

I bet you would even have us believe that if the money was not spent on Gaelic then it would magically disappear and not be available for anything else?

Or we could just deflect the argument by saying "more money is wasted in that than is spent on this".

You might even have us believe that Gaelic justifies itself by the intrigue and interest it generates with visitors, bringing them back here time and again, and as such making a huge contribution to the income we generate in Tourism!!!

It's all a load of tired old tosh and whilst we might all disagree on what cause/need is more worthy than any other, the simple fact is that Gaelic is neither. It's not a cause that saves or improves lives and we could quite happily survive without it....and from that point of view it deserves little, if any money from the public purse, certainly not to the detriment of things which might enhance the lives of more than 1% of the population.

I have nothing against Gaelic, those who speak it or those who wish to learn it and I have no objection to it being taught in schools. What I do object to is 10's of millions of pounds of public money being spent on road signs, office signs for public buildings, printing and producing information in the language when it is not required, grants for private companies because they hire the odd Gaelic speaker and also want to print their literature in the language when it's not needed, people being excluded from taking jobs because they don't speak Gaelic, even though an English speaker could do the job just as well...or worse still, paying people in similar/smae positions more money because they speak Gaelic, even though it adds nothing to the job they do or how efficiently they do it.

If we had spare cash in the pot, then fine, let's spend it on these things, the "nice to haves". However, the simple truth of the matter is that we are far from having enough in the pot and if we are going to spend money we don't have then we should at least be spending it on something that brings entertainment/contentment/a momentary break from the rigours of real life to more than a minute percentage of the population.

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The old "different budgets" argument used by many a politician and councillor to justify spending in one area when people suggest it would be more worthwhile spent elsewhere.

I bet you would even have us believe that if the money was not spent on Gaelic then it would magically disappear and not be available for anything else?

Or we could just deflect the argument by saying "more money is wasted in that than is spent on this".

You might even have us believe that Gaelic justifies itself by the intrigue and interest it generates with visitors, bringing them back here time and again, and as such making a huge contribution to the income we generate in Tourism!!!

It's all a load of tired old tosh and whilst we might all disagree on what cause/need is more worthy than any other, the simple fact is that Gaelic is neither. It's not a cause that saves or improves lives and we could quite happily survive without it....and from that point of view it deserves little, if any money from the public purse, certainly not to the detriment of things which might enhance the lives of more than 1% of the population.

I have nothing against Gaelic, those who speak it or those who wish to learn it and I have no objection to it being taught in schools. What I do object to is 10's of millions of pounds of public money being spent on road signs, office signs for public buildings, printing and producing information in the language when it is not required, grants for private companies because they hire the odd Gaelic speaker and also want to print their literature in the language when it's not needed, people being excluded from taking jobs because they don't speak Gaelic, even though an English speaker could do the job just as well...or worse still, paying people in similar/smae positions more money because they speak Gaelic, even though it adds nothing to the job they do or how efficiently they do it.

If we had spare cash in the pot, then fine, let's spend it on these things, the "nice to haves". However, the simple truth of the matter is that we are far from having enough in the pot and if we are going to spend money we don't have then we should at least be spending it on something that brings entertainment/contentment/a momentary break from the rigours of real life to more than a minute percentage of the population.

Good post especially the second paragraph. As an example, I wonder how much is spent on Translators for the thousands of illegal immigrants including those who appear in court cases.

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Smee, why exactly do you feel the need to go to great lengths, what point are you trying to prove.......

The reason i went to great lengths, is because Mantis has taken great pleasure, in ridiculing the validity of my claims, (regarding the article i posted)...since i first mentioned it, many months ago. At every oportunity, taking digs at the details i mentioned about the salaries and the existance of the jobs. So ....i found that article, and posted it to prove it was true.

Edited by SMEE
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I have nothing against Gaelic, those who speak it or those who wish to learn it and I have no objection to it being taught in schools. What I do object to is 10's of millions of pounds of public money being spent on road signs, office signs for public buildings, printing and producing information in the language when it is not required, grants for private companies because they hire the odd Gaelic speaker and also want to print their literature in the language when it's not needed, people being excluded from taking jobs because they don't speak Gaelic, even though an English speaker could do the job just as well...or worse still, paying people in similar/smae positions more money because they speak Gaelic, even

Exacta Mundo! This is exactly what gets up many peoples collective noses, and alienates the Language! You cant halt progress, and thats why Gaelic is dying on its arse. Thats an undisputable FACT. Gaelic has no benefits to modern society!

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I have no Gaelic heritage, that I am aware of, coming as I do from Inverness where the Kings/Queens English was taught to us by, as I understand, incomers who then ' tried to teach us their way' - as the Irish song says - and some are still holding the candle for them.

I wonder what language we were speaking that required them to teach us their way.

I wonder what language we were speaking when the bi- lingual minister was used by the English to betray us.

Don talks about a minute percentage of the population that enjoys the entertainment that the language brings, well here is one part of that minute percentage that has no Gaelic speaking ability but derives enormous enjoyment from their music, language and verse. I blame this on the West Coast nurses at Raigmore Hospital which was beside my home, who shared the delights of Drumnadrochit, Kiltarlity and the Strath and introduced me to their native language and music.

Maybe I should also recognise Callum Kennedy, Alistair Gillies, Anne Lorne Gilles, Bobby McLeod etc and the Empire Theatre for my sin of enjoying this terrible thing.

In other countries the minorities are fighting to keep their identities, using force at times, but here we have the semi-locals doing the English bidding for them.

We are only custodians as we pass through life, the current money situation will pass but be aware that at the end of our time, we should have left this place a bit richer not poorer and the loss of a language/way of life will make Scotland poorer.

Smee makes the point that you can't halt progress and then confirms that that is a fact!!

Well maybe to you but to some of us, surprise, surprise, the loss of a native language is not progress and that is a fact, as we recognise it.

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wow this is the first time i have looked at this thread since posting. (apologies about the link, but it doesn?t look like it would be used by many anyway so im not fixing it).

Absent Friend, I liked your post. I have several reasons why I am a Gaelic learner - my late grandfather was the last speaker in my family and I would like to carry it on. My Gaelic teacher up north turned up pyshd one afternoon at my primary school and never came back. Come to think of it, my piano teacher was drunk dancing in the hills the last time i heard, but that?s what you expect when you get north of Lairg. I was at the Barrowlands in Glasgow for Runrig last week and Vatersay boys last Friday, both bands have a strong association with Gaelic and I would like to know what the words in the songs mean. Also the lessons down here proved to be a fun social event, with many nights out etc associated with it. Gaelic roadsigns and budgets apart: - For people that have no time for Gaelic in the sense of preserving culture, promoting a sense of identity and purely ridicule people who do take pride in it...i pity you. For people about my age (21) who down the traditional Scottish music scene I take consolation in the fact that Il head to random venues all over Scotland, muck up the strip the willow from drinking too much whisky and sing in partially nonsense Gaelic...and you wont be there! Bring on Barra 2010.

As for the signs debate, I worked with the Highland Council in the past. I do not believe the money being spent on Gaelic road signs is justified, purely because I think there are more worthy causes.

Edited by Northern_jaggie
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^ I have heard David Mitchell going on about this before, somewhere else. Just in case anyone should ask what entitles him to be spouting off, its because he has something like 90% Scottish ancestory. He was on the BBC prog Who Do You Think You Are

And....he is correct in what he says...if Gaelic dies out (as it is doing) it is because there is no need for the language, so people dont use it.

Edited by SMEE
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Look at how much money the commonwealth games got, and the olympics, and how much is being spent on the world cup bid by England

Every child across Scotland should have the chance to enter a Gaelic school. Things like sports facilities, high-tech rooms, etc, if put into these schools could be used as incentives.

22m is nothing compared to what has been spent on the above. If money needs to be taken from elsewhere, then so be it.

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There are more Polish speakers in Scotland now than Gaelic speakers. I resent the money being thrown at translators for them and also the money being squandered on a dead language. It's not about culture and heritage, it's about being shafted for every penny they can get from you. And for what? Feck all.

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We are only custodians as we pass through life, the current money situation will pass but be aware that at the end of our time, we should have left this place a bit richer not poorer and the loss of a language/way of life will make Scotland poorer.

Absent friend, you should be absent less often. A calm and reasoned voice amongst the hysterics of those who need to repeat themselves time and again, only louder :cold02:

wow this is the first time i have looked at this thread since posting. (apologies about the link, but it doesn?t look like it would be used by many anyway so im not fixing it).

NJ, my apologies to you, too late I know. As a mod I should have kept your thread on track and who knows some people might have been interested in your link which you posted in good faith.

Instead it was hijacked and developed into yet another pro/anti Gaelic thread. At four pages long it's been quite interesting but there have been two or three threads already covering the same ground and afaik nobody has yet managed to convert anybody else :D

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My post was tongue in cheek, but SMEE didnt fall for it...rats!

Yeah, though i do like the romanticism of gaelic, unless they intend to make it the official language of Scotland, im afraid it is a plaything of the government. Though BBC Alba gives ICT coverage so dont bite the hand that feeds you!

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