Standing at Matches

[vinnie87]

Hello all.

Just looking for some opinions really. I'm currently writing a dissertation in which I am looking at the possibility of introducing 'safe standing areas' into top flight football stadiums in Britain. These 'safe standing areas' are not the same as your traditional terracing but like the areas you find in many modern German stadiums.

So if you can give me your views on the possibility of standing areas in the spl? Do you think modern all-seated stadiums lack the atmosphere previously found on the terraces? Or do you prefer to sit comfortably with your own defined space? Do you feel unsafe while standing in the terraces?

It would be good to get some opinions from folk who used to go to big games when it was mainly terracing and if they feel the introduction of all seated stadiums has had a negative effect on the atmosphere created in our grounds.

And what stadiums do you feel have the best atmosphere? (not just SPL stadiums, any you feel encourage a good atmosphere during the game).

I would be grateful for any opinions and experiences you have.

Thanks,

Grant

[TopSix]

Err... We're not in the SPL. Unfortunately the 'fans' of rangers and Celtic spoli it for the rest of us.

I miss terracing.

[The Mantis]

I miss terracing too. I'm a bit foggy on the details but as I remember it, it had nothing to do with the OF, but was imposed on us in Scotland by the Taylor Report and the tory government following the Bradford and Hillsborough disasters (and the Heysel one in Belgium). Nobody can seriously argue that sitting the fans down would have prevented either of those. It seems more a political thing to me - makes the masses easier to control and manipulate, and at the same time the clubs can raise prices.

Maybe if we had our own parliament back then things would have been different. I don't think seats are necessary in Scotland (or England for that matter) even though there was the Ibrox disaster in 1971. I could be wrong on this, but it was well over 20 years ago.

[CaleyD]

My understanding is similar to yours Mantis.

What I would add to the discussion though, is that if you look carefully at the wording...certainly for the Scottish Legislation...there's no mention of "sitting" anywhere. All it states is that Stadia over a certain size must be all-seated. The only reference ever made to "you must sit" is by the SPL, and even then that was issued by way of a letter of interpretation to clubs and is not, or wasn't the last I checked, in the SPL Handbook.

I would need to go back and refresh my memory, but as I understand it, there's nothing in Scottish Legislation that states Stadia belonging to clubs in the top flight must be all-seater, only that those with a capacity of over 10,000 seats must meet certain criteria. So again, the need for all-seater stadia for Scottish top flight football is an SPL requirement and not a legislative one.

I've often wondered why, since so many clubs in Scotland seem against the "All-Seater" criteria, do they accept it? Certainly through my dealings with various people at ICT over the years it would seem to be that they are either ignorant of the actual rules and legislation...although in their defence they tend to get training/guidance from the SPL on the matter...or they simple chit their pants at the mere mention of the words "Health & Safety" and tend towards the ridiculous for fear that anything comes back on them.

Any senior steward or police officer who is out there "on the front line" as it were and they will tell you (off the record of course) that they would far rather be looking after terracing. It's easier and safer for them to deal with issues there than to be tripping over people and seats to get in to deal with something in an all-seated stand. Ask first-aid and ambulance crew and they will tell you the same.....they will also tell you that most incidents they have to deal with come from people falling over seats, catching an ankle in them and (from personal experience) cutting shin on the back of one because you have to squeeze in and out.

As far as I can ascertain there's no logical reason why seating would, or should, be considered any "safer" than terracing and whilst some older terracing might have issues with crushing etc, these are things that could be rectified easily and within the financial means of any club (certainly cheaper than having to build whole new stands).

When this subject comes up, fans normally argue it from the point that "we've done it for years", "it's our right to stand" or "you get a better atmosphere in terracing". All arguments which are easily dismissed. What we need is a change of tact and to approach it from the angle of questioning why these rules exist and who put them in place. Clubs are happy to blame the relevant footballing association, who in turn point the finger at legislation....and in most cases they are feeding back misinformation and half truths which are heavily spun to support their stance. We are far too quick to accept this and need to break down the misinformation and challenge the situation from club level up. Win over the clubs and they will pressure associations (which they make up), win over the associations and they can then battle any legislation they feel is a hindrance.

[buffy]

Grant, could you possibly e-mail me please on this subject. Thanks. buffy2angel@hotmail.com

Well said, CaleyD

Buffy x

[DornochCaley]

My understanding is similar to yours Mantis.

What I would add to the discussion though, is that if you look carefully at the wording...certainly for the Scottish Legislation...there's no mention of "sitting" anywhere. All it states is that Stadia over a certain size must be all-seated. The only reference ever made to "you must sit" is by the SPL, and even then that was issued by way of a letter of interpretation to clubs and is not, or wasn't the last I checked, in the SPL Handbook.

I would need to go back and refresh my memory, but as I understand it, there's nothing in Scottish Legislation that states Stadia belonging to clubs in the top flight must be all-seater, only that those with a capacity of over 10,000 seats must meet certain criteria. So again, the need for all-seater stadia for Scottish top flight football is an SPL requirement and not a legislative one.

I've often wondered why, since so many clubs in Scotland seem against the "All-Seater" criteria, do they accept it? Certainly through my dealings with various people at ICT over the years it would seem to be that they are either ignorant of the actual rules and legislation...although in their defence they tend to get training/guidance from the SPL on the matter...or they simple chit their pants at the mere mention of the words "Health & Safety" and tend towards the ridiculous for fear that anything comes back on them.

Any senior steward or police officer who is out there "on the front line" as it were and they will tell you (off the record of course) that they would far rather be looking after terracing. It's easier and safer for them to deal with issues there than to be tripping over people and seats to get in to deal with something in an all-seated stand. Ask first-aid and ambulance crew and they will tell you the same.....they will also tell you that most incidents they have to deal with come from people falling over seats, catching an ankle in them and (from personal experience) cutting shin on the back of one because you have to squeeze in and out.

As far as I can ascertain there's no logical reason why seating would, or should, be considered any "safer" than terracing and whilst some older terracing might have issues with crushing etc, these are things that could be rectified easily and within the financial means of any club (certainly cheaper than having to build whole new stands).

When this subject comes up, fans normally argue it from the point that "we've done it for years", "it's our right to stand" or "you get a better atmosphere in terracing". All arguments which are easily dismissed. What we need is a change of tact and to approach it from the angle of questioning why these rules exist and who put them in place. Clubs are happy to blame the relevant footballing association, who in turn point the finger at legislation....and in most cases they are feeding back misinformation and half truths which are heavily spun to support their stance. We are far too quick to accept this and need to break down the misinformation and challenge the situation from club level up. Win over the clubs and they will pressure associations (which they make up), win over the associations and they can then battle any legislation they feel is a hindrance.

:001: :029: :029: :025: :025:

Brilliant. Well said Mr.D

[caleykid1994]

I miss terracing too. I'm a bit foggy on the details but as I remember it, it had nothing to do with the OF, but was imposed on us in Scotland by the Taylor Report and the tory government following the Bradford and Hillsborough disasters (and the Heysel one in Belgium). Nobody can seriously argue that sitting the fans down would have prevented either of those. It seems more a political thing to me - makes the masses easier to control and manipulate, and at the same time the clubs can raise prices.

Maybe if we had our own parliament back then things would have been different. I don't think seats are necessary in Scotland (or England for that matter) even though there was the Ibrox disaster in 1971. I could be wrong on this, but it was well over 20 years ago.

I maybe wrong but wasnt the Ibrox disaster to do with a stairway outside the ground, not terracing???

[The Mantis]

Yes you're right, sorry if my post looks a bit ambiguous.

I suppose you could argue that the capacity of Ibrox has been cut in half by the seats so it must be safer.

If you imagine the Mount Florida end ('Rangers' end) at Hampden, IIRC it has loads of exit stairs all round it. Ibrox had 2 huge terraces like that but with only a stair at each corner. Anybody will tell you how scary it could be on those stairs after a big game.

Edited December 15, 2009 by The Mantis

[SMEE]

I must admit....Im a terracing man at heart. I grew up a Howden Ender, and i guess standing is just ingrained in me. Given a choice, at TCS...ad much rather be on the terracing....but a lil cover overhead would be swell!

[DornochJAGGIE]

My understanding is similar to yours Mantis.

What I would add to the discussion though, is that if you look carefully at the wording...certainly for the Scottish Legislation...there's no mention of "sitting" anywhere. All it states is that Stadia over a certain size must be all-seated. The only reference ever made to "you must sit" is by the SPL, and even then that was issued by way of a letter of interpretation to clubs and is not, or wasn't the last I checked, in the SPL Handbook.

I would need to go back and refresh my memory, but as I understand it, there's nothing in Scottish Legislation that states Stadia belonging to clubs in the top flight must be all-seater, only that those with a capacity of over 10,000 seats must meet certain criteria. So again, the need for all-seater stadia for Scottish top flight football is an SPL requirement and not a legislative one.

I've often wondered why, since so many clubs in Scotland seem against the "All-Seater" criteria, do they accept it? Certainly through my dealings with various people at ICT over the years it would seem to be that they are either ignorant of the actual rules and legislation...although in their defence they tend to get training/guidance from the SPL on the matter...or they simple chit their pants at the mere mention of the words "Health & Safety" and tend towards the ridiculous for fear that anything comes back on them.

Any senior steward or police officer who is out there "on the front line" as it were and they will tell you (off the record of course) that they would far rather be looking after terracing. It's easier and safer for them to deal with issues there than to be tripping over people and seats to get in to deal with something in an all-seated stand. Ask first-aid and ambulance crew and they will tell you the same.....they will also tell you that most incidents they have to deal with come from people falling over seats, catching an ankle in them and (from personal experience) cutting shin on the back of one because you have to squeeze in and out.

As far as I can ascertain there's no logical reason why seating would, or should, be considered any "safer" than terracing and whilst some older terracing might have issues with crushing etc, these are things that could be rectified easily and within the financial means of any club (certainly cheaper than having to build whole new stands).

When this subject comes up, fans normally argue it from the point that "we've done it for years", "it's our right to stand" or "you get a better atmosphere in terracing". All arguments which are easily dismissed. What we need is a change of tact and to approach it from the angle of questioning why these rules exist and who put them in place. Clubs are happy to blame the relevant footballing association, who in turn point the finger at legislation....and in most cases they are feeding back misinformation and half truths which are heavily spun to support their stance. We are far too quick to accept this and need to break down the misinformation and challenge the situation from club level up. Win over the clubs and they will pressure associations (which they make up), win over the associations and they can then battle any legislation they feel is a hindrance.

:025: :025: :025: :025: :025:

Brilliant. Well said Mr.D

Next i get told to sit down, i will raise that with the head stewerd :021: