Political Stance

[+DoofersDad]

One or two points.

We don't have the balance right in this country. I am all for helping those who, for no fault of their own, are needy. The trouble is that there is so little difference between what people who have no desire to work can get off the welfare state and what hard working but low paid folk earn, that there is no incentive to get into work. Subsidising the scroungers prevents proper inmvestment to support the genuinely needy. At the other end of the pay scale, the massive tax evading scams of higher earners does the same. A fair day's work for a fair days pay.

Next. I don't have a problem with people earning a lot of money and as long as they pay reasonable taxes I don't see why they should be fleeced. They get paid more usually because they are good at what they do (bankers excepted). Many high earing business people generate wealth by their activities and create jobs for others. Force them to pay crippling taxes and they will either stop what they are doing or emigrate with the result that others will be thrown on to the dole.

Third. People are inherently selfish and vote for what will benefit them in the short term and not for what is good for the long term future of the country and the planet. Opinion polls will show that the public generally agree with the need to take measures to prevent global warming for instance but will not vote for restrictions on car use or for raising taxes to regenerate the railways. People are up in arms when there are cuts in the NHS but when a party campaigns on a platform of raising taxes in order to invest in the NHS the voters vote to protect the pound in their pockets. The duplicity of politicians reflects the duplicity of those of us who vote for them.

Finally, there is an intersting comparison between general economic philosophies and what happens in football. The mega stars earn huge sums simply because the big clubs want the best. Very talented players at the SFL level get bugger all and may only earn for a year or two before some injury ends their career and they have no trade or profession to fall back on. The injustice of this is clear to all but it exists because we, the fans, vote with our feet and TV remotes and the market gives us what we want.

[Renegade]

Your Reading list? No, but i would like to hear it.

Mine contains Currently i am reading Che Guevara: A revolutionary Life, Communist Manifesto and To Kill a Mockingbird.

Of what would be of interest to you, I've read George Galloway's book, most of Michael Moore's books, "Don't Start The Revolution Without Me!" by Gov. Jesse Ventura and "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" by Hunter S. Thompson, and probably more. I think that is a rather politically cultured repertoire.

[Yngwie]

With capitalism we get rich and poor, boom and bust.

With communism its much fairer. Everyone is poor, and the economy is always bust.

The people end up wanting to flee the country to get a better life and the regime has to remove freedoms and become totalitarian and brutal to keep its people under control. Simple.

[Caley Stan]

We don't have the balance right in this country. I am all for helping those who, for no fault of their own, are needy. The trouble is that there is so little difference between what people who have no desire to work can get off the welfare state and what hard working but low paid folk earn, that there is no incentive to get into work. Subsidising the scroungers prevents proper inmvestment to support the genuinely needy. At the other end of the pay scale, the massive tax evading scams of higher earners does the same. A fair day's work for a fair days pay.

This argument is very popular at the moment as unemployment rises. I'm not convinced that many people are happy to spend their lives on benefits. Significant sections of the population are very poorly educated and suffer from serious social problems which exclude them from the economy.

In the post-industrial age, most developed countries carry an unemployment rate of 7-10%. There are some notable exceptions to this rule though. Norway's unemployment rate is 3%, and i don't think it's a coincidence that they have a more generous welfare system than most.

[PullMyFinger]

i don't think it's a coincidence that they have a more generous welfare system than most.

or that they have much higher taxation than us?

[starchief]

Regarding unemployment, I do think it's amazing how the vitriol against the 'scroungers' is linked to employment rates. During good times when unemployment is low, rarely a word is heard, yet when unemployment is high (like during the Thatcher years or the Credit Crunch) people will complain heavily about benefits. As if somehow a significant proportion of the population becomes lazy altogether for a couple of years, then somehow gets the will to work when the economy improves.

[Scotty]

I bet Castro's a lovely man. :D

I bet he is.

:D Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

A friend of mine has a Cuban wife (who comes to TFC games with him) and she told me (and I had also heard it whilst in Cuba) that prior to Fidel's most recent illnesses he would have a habit of dropping in on events or even vacation resorts just to say hello, especially if there were "important" or "influential" people (foreigners) there. Many of the locals also refer to him as "uncle" as he does portray himself in that avuncular role.

Dont get me wrong, I know you cant please everyone and there are plenty of dissidents who want to flee the country and/or the system so I am certain that there is a much more sinister and ruthless face to him too as you dont remain ruler of a country for so long without having some pretty good ways of keeping folk loyal but for me the truth is probably somewhere in the middle .... His propaganda (PR) will embellish his uncle-like qualities whilst the PR machine of the USA will show him as a despot and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

His brother Raul is now in charge and despite having been army chief for many years is seen as more moderate. He has relaxed a lot of things for normal Cubans and even relations with the US seem to be thawing a little. I dont think we will see proper relations restored until Fidel dies but I think that is likely to happen within Obama's presidency so he will be keen to show the world that America is capable of healing very old and deep wounds ... not to mention get themselves in there for all the natural resources. When that happens, Cuba will be a very different and for me, i thnk, less pleasant, country.

[DornochCaley]

I bet Castro's a lovely man.

I bet he is.

Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

A friend of mine has a Cuban wife (who comes to TFC games with him) and she told me (and I had also heard it whilst in Cuba) that prior to Fidel's most recent illnesses he would have a habit of dropping in on events or even vacation resorts just to say hello, especially if there were "important" or "influential" people (foreigners) there. Many of the locals also refer to him as "uncle" as he does portray himself in that avuncular role.

Dont get me wrong, I know you cant please everyone and there are plenty of dissidents who want to flee the country and/or the system so I am certain that there is a much more sinister and ruthless face to him too as you dont remain ruler of a country for so long without having some pretty good ways of keeping folk loyal but for me the truth is probably somewhere in the middle .... His propaganda (PR) will embellish his uncle-like qualities whilst the PR machine of the USA will show him as a despot and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

His brother Raul is now in charge and despite having been army chief for many years is seen as more moderate. He has relaxed a lot of things for normal Cubans and even relations with the US seem to be thawing a little. I dont think we will see proper relations restored until Fidel dies but I think that is likely to happen within Obama's presidency so he will be keen to show the world that America is capable of healing very old and deep wounds ... not to mention get themselves in there for all the natural resources. When that happens, Cuba will be a very different and for me, i thnk, less pleasant, country.

Good post Scotty. I really dont understand America at all. They try and create order in countries where there is none. They try to create democratic nations in Iraq ect. Yet Communism is banned in America. That is not Democracy.

I would highly recommened Che Geuvara: A revolutionary Life to anyone. Reading it, you can really see the corruption that the US spreads throughout Southern America. Or how much they did during the mid-1900's. Its shocking when you think how great the US try to act, though reading this book, it shows how America exploited most poor countries in Southern America and how many Facist Leaders they helped into, and stay in power.

[Renegade]

I bet Castro's a lovely man.

I bet he is.

Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

It wouldn't surprise if he is a nice man, if you are on his side. The same could probably be said for people like Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini, or Mugabe. I could go on and on with names. They are probably fine, if you are one of them. Should you disagree with them, or have the unfortunate incident of being born with something you cannot help, like being gay in Cuba or being a Jew born in Germany during Hitler's time. You're gone. To me, any "niceness" they display, counts for nothing when they have attitudes to people like this, and shows what absolute nutcase dictators they are. People in the American army guarding Saddam when he was first caught sad he was a very nice man and what great friendliness he showed when he gassed those Kurds.

Edited December 13, 2009 by Renegade

[starchief]

I really dont understand America at all. They try and create order in countries where there is none. They try to create democratic nations in Iraq ect. Yet Communism is banned in America. That is not Democracy.

America protects it's own interests. As soon as you understand that, it all makes sense.

I don't think they're doing a great job mind you and would have been far better with a less hawkish government after 9/11.

Edited December 13, 2009 by starchief

[Oz647]

I bet Castro's a lovely man.

I bet he is.

Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

It wouldn't surprise if he is a nice man, if you are on his side. The same could probably be said for people like Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini, or Mugabe. I could go on and on with names. They are probably fine, if you are one of them. Should you disagree with them, or have the unfortunate incident of being born with something you cannot help, like being gay in Cuba or being a Jew born in Germany during Hitler's time. You're gone. To me, any "niceness" they display, counts for nothing when they have attitudes to people like this, and shows what absolute nutcase dictators they are. People in the American army guarding Saddam when he was first caught sad he was a very nice man and what great friendliness he showed when he gassed those Kurds.

:025: You know Renegade, some people on here ridicule you and the stuff you post but I couldn't agree more with everything you have just posted.

[DornochCaley]

I bet Castro's a lovely man.

I bet he is.

Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

It wouldn't surprise if he is a nice man, if you are on his side. The same could probably be said for people like Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini, or Mugabe. I could go on and on with names. They are probably fine, if you are one of them. Should you disagree with them, or have the unfortunate incident of being born with something you cannot help, like being gay in Cuba or being a Jew born in Germany during Hitler's time. You're gone. To me, any "niceness" they display, counts for nothing when they have attitudes to people like this, and shows what absolute nutcase dictators they are. People in the American army guarding Saddam when he was first caught sad he was a very nice man and what great friendliness he showed when he gassed those Kurds.

Compairing Castro to Hitler and Stalin is shocking. You should be ashamed of yourself.

[dead_ball_specialist]

Didn't take long for Godwin's law to come into effect did it?

This thread wasn't a complete waste of time though, I learned a new word 'avuncular'.

Edited December 13, 2009 by dead_ball_specialist

[Renegade]

Compairing Castro to Hitler and Stalin is shocking. You should be ashamed of yourself.

God, this thread just gets worse. Oh, I'm so ashamed of myself. Mentioning one evil dictator in the same breadth as another, is just so terrible, I'm just going to go away and cry cause I'm so ashamed of myself. And I see you've also side stepped my reading list, is that a coincidence or was it cause you couldn't attack me on it?

[DornochCaley]

Compairing Castro to Hitler and Stalin is shocking. You should be ashamed of yourself.

God, this thread just gets worse. Oh, I'm so ashamed of myself. Mentioning one evil dictator in the same breadth as another, is just so terrible, I'm just going to go away and cry cause I'm so ashamed of myself. And I see you've also side stepped my reading list, is that a coincidence or was it cause you couldn't attack me on it?

I had no reason to attack you on it. You mentioned you had a list, so i asked what it contained. You havn't attacked mine. Is it because you cannot attack me on it?

Castro an Evil Dictator? Yes, ok. Whatever you say. He is regarded as a Dictator because he protects Cuba from the grabbing hands of America. He has always denied being a dictator and is strongly against Dictatorship. Its Ludicrous compairing Castro to these men. He may not be perfect (Thee who is without sin, cast the first stone) but he is no Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe ect. I see its not only football formations that you have Strainge opinions of.

[Oz647]

You couldn't write this stuff, absolutely priceless.

[Renegade]

I had no reason to attack you on it. You mentioned you had a list, so i asked what it contained. You havn't attacked mine. Is it because you cannot attack me on it?

No, it's to show you that I don't "listen to the media too much", and have read in fact many left wing, liberally viewpointed books.

Castro an Evil Dictator? Yes, ok. Whatever you say. He is regarded as a Dictator because he protects Cuba from the grabbing hands of America.

Killing people because of something they cannot change, or killing people who don't agree with his viewpoint. Oh no, that's no evil.

He has always denied being a dictator and is strongly against Dictatorship.

Yeah, right...

Its Ludicrous compairing Castro to these men. He may not be perfect (Thee who is without sin, cast the first stone) but he is no Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe ect.

I don't think I've ever murdered anyone or executed anyone, so yes I can attack him on it going my your religious quote.

I see its not only football formations that you have Strainge opinions of.

Oh I see, just because someone disagrees with you, you've got to attack them personally (and maybe learn to spell "strange" in the process). Hiding behind what others have said, and attacking me on completely unrelated (BTW - I've gone with a 4-3-3 formation this week, is that strange? Maybe you should send me to Cuba and get your buddy Fidel to execute me!). Seriously unbelievable stuff.

[TopSix]

I think Renegade is perfectly entitled - and correct - to compare Fidel Castro to any other dictator. I find it amusing that such oligarchical power structures exist where people claim to be working toward a socialist utopia.

Surely if Castro had been so successful his state aparatus would no longer be needed? Kim Jong Il - passing the reigns to his son through ill health, Saddam used his sons against the Iraqi people to brutal effect and, oh, Castro is passing the reigns over to his brother... There's no pattern there at all?

You also need to address the issue of human emacipation DornochCaley. How is this to be achieved within a 'communist' Cuba?

[Scotty]

I bet Castro's a lovely man.

I bet he is.

Oh yeah, I bet you can you can just turn up at his house, and he'll offer cake and chat away for the afternoon. Better not be gay though, or it'll be the firing squad for you.

Actually, he is supposed to be a very nice man. One of the ministers who officiated at my wedding met him whilst in Havana a few years ago. They were at a "normal" function and he turned up un-announced. spent some time with folks and then left. The minister said he was very nice, knowledgeable and avuncular.

It wouldn't surprise if he is a nice man, if you are on his side. The same could probably be said for people like Hitler, or Stalin, or Mussolini, or Mugabe. I could go on and on with names. They are probably fine, if you are one of them. Should you disagree with them, or have the unfortunate incident of being born with something you cannot help, like being gay in Cuba or being a Jew born in Germany during Hitler's time. You're gone. To me, any "niceness" they display, counts for nothing when they have attitudes to people like this, and shows what absolute nutcase dictators they are. People in the American army guarding Saddam when he was first caught sad he was a very nice man and what great friendliness he showed when he gassed those Kurds.

If Castro is so anti-gay and such an omnipotent dictator, perhaps you can address the following questions?

Why is it that same sex relationships have been legal in Cuba since 1979?

[Admittedly, although same-sex relationships are not illegal, same sex marriage is, but then again the same can be said for most of the USA too !!!!]

Why is that "gender re-assigment" operations can be performed for free under their version of the NHS ?

http://www.caribbeannetnews.com/cgi-script...0021/002197.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7314845.stm

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN06395397

As I said above, I am sure that there are plenty of areas you can criticise Cuba on, and the freedom for LGBT members of society to display their sexuality may still be one of them - given the preponderence for police machismo to shine through despite the law - but you seem to be picking on things that arent actually provable fact .... or were perhaps a provable fact 10 or 20 or more years ago but where things have moved on since then.

Cuba is not perfect, it is a poor nation that lost its major provider abruptly when the Soviet Union came crashing down and there are things we regard as basics that they dont have ... but please dont believe all the rhetoric you hear about the country. Unless you have been to the country and experienced it or unless you have friends who were born there you are only getting part of the picture. I am lucky, I have been there more than once and I also have friends from Cuba who live in Toronto so my outlook is that I dont buy the whole "Uncle" Fidel BS in full, but I certainly dont buy the "Fidevil" crap either. The truth is somewhere in between.

[TopSix]

To what extent can citizens of Cuba influence the decision making process?

[Scotty]

To what extent can citizens of Cuba influence the decision making process?

very little.

As I said from the outset, Cuba is not perfect, and there are plenty of areas where it can be criticised but the simple fact is that all the points thrown up prior to yours can be proved to be demonstrably false.

[Alex MacLeod]

DornochCaley, one thing you didn't point out with your wealth sharing and taxation bit. Those of us earning more than 30k already pay more tax. The rate for earnings over that amount is 40%. If I earn 30k I'll pay around 6-7k in tax. If I earn 60k I'll pay nearer 18k in tax. Earn double the amount pay 3 times the tax. How would your society address that.

[Yngwie]

How would your society address that.

In his utopian society you'd only be paid ?3k per annum, the same as everyone else, you greedy capitalist pig.

You would queue for hours with them to buy bread and potatoes with it, before returning to your state owned flat which only has water and electricity at certain times of day. You would then sit down in front of your black and white television to watch a state controlled channel telling you how wonderful everything is, followed by a documentary celebrating the glorious revolution. Every night.

[PullMyFinger]

Good post Scotty. I really dont understand America at all. They try and create order in countries where there is none. They try to create democratic nations in Iraq ect. Yet Communism is banned in America. That is not Democracy.

I would highly recommened Che Geuvara: A revolutionary Life to anyone. Reading it, you can really see the corruption that the US spreads throughout Southern America. Or how much they did during the mid-1900's. Its shocking when you think how great the US try to act, though reading this book, it shows how America exploited most poor countries in Southern America and how many Facist Leaders they helped into, and stay in power.

Before criticising other countries for their foreign policy you should possibly read up on the history of our own nations treatment of foreign countries and their indiginous populations.

[Scotty]

How would your society address that.

In his utopian society you'd only be paid ?3k per annum, the same as everyone else, you greedy capitalist pig.

You would queue for hours with them to buy bread and potatoes with it, before returning to your state owned flat which only has water and electricity at certain times of day. You would then sit down in front of your black and white television to watch a state controlled channel telling you how wonderful everything is, followed by a documentary celebrating the glorious revolution. Every night.

on the plus side, we wouldnt have to update the website or get frustrated when people tried to abuse others as we would be censored