Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[starchief]

Reading what the SFL have said Charles, they're thinking along exactly the same lines. They acknowledge the lessons are being ignored and something else must be done in advance of the next Dundee/Gretna/Livi.

[Scotty]

As I said, Scotty....."Turkeys voting for Christmas" and "Until things change".

they may not get the option ... If UEFA make it mandatory for their member associations, then the SFA/SFL/SPL will have no choice unless they want to leave UEFA ... and that is not going to happen.

Just like every one of us - regardless of which side of the world we are on - has had to tighten our belts and deal with the recession, football clubs and their fans have to do the same to deal with both the recession and spiralling costs. The product has to be self sustaining and the idea that you spend slightly less than you earn, and use the rest to pay down your debt is so simple that it is one that some boards might even grasp, even if they find it hard to implement.

For all of our own board's failings over the years, fiscal irresponsibility has not been one of them for most of our existence. We all have our moans and groans about the club or how they have done or handled different things but for the most part I think we are well run in that area. We were told when went down that we could sustain a one year challenge for the title but the underlying message was ... "if we dont get back in year 1, then be prepared for it to be a long slog with less resources". Luckily we dont need to talk about that right now, but should change come, and be embraced (however reluctantly) by the Scottish game, I think we - and probably one or two other teams - will probably be in good shape. (so long as we dont get relegated again).

[CaleyD]

I should just have put "They aren't going to do anything until forced into it"

I think Scottish Football (and maybe even global football) has just entered a period of natural selection and if we haven't lost at least a half dozen of the teams in the current setup to liquidation within the next 4 or 5 years I'll be surprised. I also don't think it will be a bad thing in the grand scheme as trying to support 40 teams in a professional setup the way we are is folly for such a small country....that in itself should force the issue on league structure, which is also desperately needed but not going to happen until forced.

Probably best I don't allow myself to be drawn into a discussion on ICT's finances or I'll be here ranting all night!!!

[+DoofersDad]

I think a tough line needs to be taken. As long as penalties for this sort of behaviour are relatively minor, people will continue to take risks with the finances of football clubs. What they are doing is taking a gamble that the investment will lead to rewards on the back of success, and as long as the risk seems to be small relative to the potential rewards, people will continue to take those risks.

Others have commented that it is the fans of clubs going into administration who suffer and that they should not be the victims of this. That may be true, but to some extent they, at least, have an opportunity to comment on and perhaps, influence what is going on in their club. The real victims are the fans, players and staff of other clubs who are cheated out of success by those who go into debt to buy success on the park.

Last season, had Dundee not hit the self destruct button, then they may well have held on to pip us for promotion. The increased revenue SPL status would have given them could have meant their gamble paid off as money would have come in to cover the debt. And who would the losers have been? Us, of course. Would we then have been able to bring in the new signings we have and get existing players to extend contracts? How long might we have stayed in the SFL? Having got promotion, things are looking good and folk are even daring to dream that we might be playing in Europe soon. All of that could have been denied us had the Dundee Board's irresponsible gamble of spending money they hadn't got come off.

Yes, I feel sorry for the Dundee fans but we have to get the message over that cheating honest clubs out of what is rightly theirs is not acceptable. At the very least, the club should be demoted to the 3rd division and those responsible for the mess be banned from acting in any official capacity in any club afilliated to the SFA.

[Scotty]

Last season, had Dundee not hit the self destruct button, then they may well have held on to pip us for promotion. The increased revenue SPL status would have given them could have meant their gamble paid off as money would have come in to cover the debt. And who would the losers have been? Us, of course. Would we then have been able to bring in the new signings we have and get existing players to extend contracts? How long might we have stayed in the SFL? Having got promotion, things are looking good and folk are even daring to dream that we might be playing in Europe soon. All of that could have been denied us had the Dundee Board's irresponsible gamble of spending money they hadn't got come off.

The difference is that our Chairman indicated we would put resources in place for a one year make or break attempt to get back to the SPL ... they even used the 'bouncebackability' hope (dream) in advertising. Fans bought into it and we sold more season tickets last year than we did in the previous year in the SPL.

However, I think we were all very clear, and under no illusions that if it didnt happen last season we were going to be in D1 for a while and would not be able to sustain a year-on-year push in the way that Dundee have done since their relegation. Hell, before Xmas, many of us were resigned to life in D1 for a while and wondering who the new manager would be when TB walked away along with much of the squad ...... and then our campaign clicked while others bottled it

[lukemackay]

slightly harsh deduction but i cant help but laugh, just thinking we were 10+ points behind them this time last season and now we are about 15 places raked ahead of them atm is hilarious :ictscarf::ictscarf:

[Charles Bannerman]

For all of our own board's failings over the years, fiscal irresponsibility has not been one of them for most of our existence.

Presumably, Scotty, your "most of" qualification refers to the one almost fatal period around 2000 where the stadium had to be handed over to the Trust and in excess of ?2M of debt miraculously disappeared from ICT's books. That, of course, means that ICT now owns no significant asset (players in contract and the Social Club being about it) to trade against any future financial crisis (not that I'm suggesting that one is likely.)

In the warm afterglow of winning the First Division last season and returning to the SPL, I sometimes wonder if the Board have ever had an informal "what if" session on the scenario of NOT having bounced straight back up?

What I am talking about is last year's ?947K debt (well actually a bit less than that since the bonuses to players would have been less in these circumstances)against continuing SFL income streams rather than those of the SPL again this season. That would have been quite a serious situation but not, I would suggest, in the same ballpark as a decade ago.

[PullMyFinger]

What if? Indeed.

Dundee would be continuing to operate as they were and we'd be heading to the seaside.

The sooner fiscal governance is imposed the better.

[Scotty]

For all of our own board's failings over the years, fiscal irresponsibility has not been one of them for most of our existence.

Presumably, Scotty, your "most of" qualification refers to the one almost fatal period around 2000 where the stadium had to be handed over to the Trust and in excess of ?2M of debt miraculously disappeared from ICT's books. That, of course, means that ICT now owns no significant asset (players in contract and the Social Club being about it) to trade against any future financial crisis (not that I'm suggesting that one is likely.)

In the warm afterglow of winning the First Division last season and returning to the SPL, I sometimes wonder if the Board have ever had an informal "what if" session on the scenario of NOT having bounced straight back up?

What I am talking about is last year's ?947K debt (well actually a bit less than that since the bonuses to players would have been less in these circumstances)against continuing SFL income streams rather than those of the SPL again this season. That would have been quite a serious situation but not, I would suggest, in the same ballpark as a decade ago.

Indeed Charles, that is what I am referring to. I dont think the incumbents of the directors box at that time necessarily mismanaged us, ie. I dont think it was done purposely, but I do believe we got sold a bill of goods that we didnt quite realise was going to come with such a hefty price tag despite the incentives received from various quarters and the profit that the town subsequently made from it, but thats another discussion.

Putting all that aside ... the difference I am trying to point out is that we lived and learned from our mistake(s) whereas Dundee do not appear to have done similar. It is true to say that yes we did put a lot of money into our campaign last season in an effort to bounce back up but it was made abundantly clear at the start of the season that this was a one-shot deal.

If we had not won the title then I agree, we could be having an entirely different conversation about the money spent, but I dont think we would be calling in the administrators as we didnt live beyond our means for long and the board indicated that they were not prepared to see us spend wads of cash that we didnt have year after year after year. In that scenario (not winning), we might be hurting about now, but we would be recovering, albeit with a smaller squad and different personnel.

[CaleyD]

Must......resist!!!!!!

[Cinejag]

For all of our own board's failings over the years, fiscal irresponsibility has not been one of them for most of our existence.

Presumably, Scotty, your "most of" qualification refers to the one almost fatal period around 2000 where the stadium had to be handed over to the Trust and in excess of ?2M of debt miraculously disappeared from ICT's books. That, of course, means that ICT now owns no significant asset (players in contract and the Social Club being about it) to trade against any future financial crisis (not that I'm suggesting that one is likely.)

In the warm afterglow of winning the First Division last season and returning to the SPL, I sometimes wonder if the Board have ever had an informal "what if" session on the scenario of NOT having bounced straight back up?

What I am talking about is last year's ?947K debt (well actually a bit less than that since the bonuses to players would have been less in these circumstances)against continuing SFL income streams rather than those of the SPL again this season. That would have been quite a serious situation but not, I would suggest, in the same ballpark as a decade ago.

I'm sure when Price Waterhouse Coopers did a review of Scottish clubs finances only Ourselves Hamilton and Saint Mirren were the only clubs to turn a profit. Albeit I doubt it was big profits. Also I don't know for definate but I think David Sutherland and other board members underwrote the debt of a few years ago. Like I say can't be 100% sure of that last bit.

[Scotty]

we are suffering a bit from 'topic drift' here .... and I guess I am largely responsible ... lets get back on the topic of Dundee before CaleyD is no longer able to resist

[CaleyD]

As I've already said, I fully understand that Dundee fans are hurting right now and it's fairly understandable that many of them are lashing out at anyone and everyone...even if very little of that is being directed at the Board who got them in this mess.

However, I would have expected a sensible and measured communication from the DFC Supporters Society, but instead they have gone ahead and published the following cringefest!!!!

http://www.dee4life.com/homepage/2010/11/1/dundee-fans-dee-fiant.html

It now seems blatantly apparent that nobody...club, fans or supporters groups...maintain any grip on reality and/or the focus that is going to be required to get Dundee FC through this mess.

To be honest, it's starting to get rather painful to watch as they continue to implode with no sign of anyone within the Dundee setup taking any responsibility for the fact they brought this on themselves.

If anything, it's their actions and attitude that will lead to the death of the club...but they can't see that.

[DJS]

Whether it's through fear, panic or paranoia, I don't know, but many associated with Dundee seem to have lost the plot. The 25 point deduction seems about right to me for a club in administration for the second time in seven years, and the idea that relegation to Division 2 is an unthinkable situation which they could never survive will be seen by many as ridiculous. Clubs survive in Divisions 2 & 3 when they are run prudently and Dundee should be able to do the same if they find themselves there.

Then again this is Dundee, a club that could not live within its means in the SPL or SFL Div 1.

Much of the sympathy I had for them a week ago is fast evaporating and I suspect many Scottish football fans are starting to feel the same way.

[Caley Stan]

However, I would have expected a sensible and measured communication from the DFC Supporters Society, but instead they have gone ahead and published the following cringefest!!!!

http://www.dee4life.com/homepage/2010/11/1/dundee-fans-dee-fiant.html

Dee4life had a 26% stake in the club and therefore, i assume, more knowledge than most about just how unsustainable its finances had become. Yet we didn't hear a peep from them as they basked in the glory of Melville's millions and their inevitable return to the SPL. They should be apologising to the fans who elected them for their role in this fiasco rather than slating the SFL.

This quote from the statement has been highlighted on P&B:

And why do they address borrowing from HMRC, but not borrowing from banks or directors?

I didn't realise that HMRC was lending money these days!

[Kirishima]

Over-indulgence, fire numerous people (without having to follow labour laws or pay compensation) and leave however many small businesses out-of-pocket in their wake, and just get a 10pt penalty?

What do the Dundee fans think has just happened? This is a criminal club. Tax crime. Fraud. They have fraudulently attempted to get into the SPL. And Dee4Lie are just as culpable. Now they want to screw over the other SFL clubs again!!

No shame.

[KingBeastie]

My God!!

That statement is crazy. They've clearly lost the plot.

[davie]

Dundee have been dysfunctional for just about as long as I can remember, so it's no great surprise that even D4life have lost the plot along with everyone else. Dundee's last flirtation with administration was caused solely by a Board headed by the Marr brothers buying in people who they couldn't afford and couldn't keep (Ravanelli, Cannigia etc.) They were (allegedly) funded in a highly suspect manner including being invested in by a chappie called Arcan from Serbia. As well as football, he enjoyed a spot of genocide. Not a great business model for football, but marvellous for a certain type of laundering....

Roll up Melville, now sacked from his company and they are looking at where a lot of money went to in a mysterious kinda fashion. Melville has disappeared like snow off a dyke and the rest of the Board have gone belly up.

The parralels between episode 1 and 2 are frightening, and yet all Dundee and it's fans can do is propogate that myth that they are the "biggest club outside the SPL" "too important to die" and that the SFL have been "disgraceful" to them. Let's get this clear, the only people to blame are the Board, which includes D4life. The SFL are entitled to safeguard their product and should do so. It was good to us. The SFL are not attempting to "murder" Dundee, they are seeking to humanely destroy it.

SPL? You're having a laugh.

[KingBeastie]

That's a great post.

[CaleyD]

I'm not sure just how much Dee4Life would have been able to do in reality. As I pointed out elsewhere, any "fans rep" on the Board of the Club has obligations to that Board and is bound by the same rules of confidentiality as any other member. This would, technically, prevent them from "grassing" what was going on.

Furthermore, the Trusts 26% shareholding counts for nothing in the Boardroom as the Board are empowered to make all decisions, as per the articles and memorandums. One Board Member = One Vote.

That's why fans reps on club boards under the current business models used are fairly pointless, other than from the point that they can raise issues at Board Meetings (no guarantee they have to be listened too).

There's also no guarantee that the Fans Rep was aware of how bad things were. However unlikely, it is conceivable that he was kept in the dark over certain matters and/or was being fed assurances from the money men that everything was in hand. Maybe he wasn't the only one, from what I can gather, Melville was all for putting more money in to the club, even though it was not going to be to the same level as he had previously...then out of the blue that seemed to be pulled.

Not saying any of the above is the case, and I'm not looking to make excuses for Dee4Life or the fans rep. Just pointing out that they don't have some magic wand they could have waved to stop the club getting in to the position it has.

Even if the fans rep had flagged an issue, what could they have done to prevent it? 26% would have given them the power to call an EGM and it gives them the power to stop any changes to things such as Articles and Memorandums etc. Unfortunately it's not enough to force through any changes and, if like us, they have a self appointing Board, they couldn't have forced the removal of anyone.

It all adds up to give further evidence that Clubs are being run under the wrong models and how badly it needs to change.

[Caley Stan]

It all adds up to give further evidence that Clubs are being run under the wrong models and how badly it needs to change.

No doubt about that. I just assumed that a 26% stake and a seat on the board for a supporters group would act as a check against the recklessness of individuals. If, as you say, such a stake amounts to very little power in reality then something has to be done to ensure that there is a better spread of power and information.

[CaleyD]

There's a word that is used regularly by the Supporters Trust movement...Governance.

Many people, wrongly, assume that Supporters Trusts are set up with the intention of taking over clubs. Whilst many will have contingency plans in place to effect such a move should it become necessary, that is not their core roll, function or objective. What they want is a system which puts "power" in the hands of all stakeholders, has clearly defined expectations, accountability and a monitored/verifiable performance matrix of some kind for the business as a whole.

Such a system would almost definitely need to put a Board in place, but that Board would be accountable to the stakeholders and the stakeholders would have the power to remove anyone who was jeopardising the business.

As things stand, clubs find themselves with Boards which are self selecting...the current Board choose new Board Members...and even the shareholders in many cases are unable to change that unless they all club together. As the initial Boards are normally put in place and "controlled" by the largest shareholders (who don't even need a majority) then it makes the business a closed shop and dangerously exposed to the whims of a few....a situation that becomes even tougher to change when your Board is made up from major shareholders and/or their representatives.

Shareholders are also Stakeholders and they should be represented, but that should be through a vote of the Shareholders in picking a representative/s. Fans are Stakeholders and they should have a representation appointed by the fans. Local Authority, Youth & Community Development, Local Businesses and others who don't come to mind immediately are all Stakeholders in some way and all should be represented proportionately.

Only once everyone is represented accordingly at the highest level can you begin to operate a club which balances the interests of all parties and is better equipped to prevent many of the problems we see arising on the business side of football clubs.

[Theweescot]

Hi All, been a distant supporter since bell's sponroered the 1st and we won it!

This hole crap with Dundee is laughable. I've been reading the storys and forum every day and I'm sorry to say but i love it. The fans started a supporters trust after the last time (DFCSS & D4Life) and they have a 26% share in the club and a seat on the board as a few people have already mentioned. The problem is that the dfc fans wont see that they're just as responsable for this mess as the rest of the board. You're not seriously telling me that the fans new f**k all about this! If they didn't OSCR should be on top of DFCSS and D4L like a tone of bricks for a miltatude of things! At the very least the fans rep should have said something!

As far as I can see they deserve everything that's comeing to them! Liquidadate them. I love it how the fans are running round shouting "save the club!" What about the money the club owe Tayside Police and Dundee University? I don't see the fans or anyone at all in Dundee running round trying to raise ?45,500 pounds for them! Sorry but DFC deserve to go bust! Would it be diffirent if Dundee University we're in the same possition in a few months becasue DFC didn't pay? It's outragous how the police are haveing their budgets cut left right and centre yet DFC are witholding 30 odd grand from Tayside police! I'm fairly sure that's a lot to the cops now!

Acsept you're fate Dundee! It's game over and your just gutted becasue we came from half way down the table and beat you to it! Yet again they tried to "buy" their way to the SPL and well they failed! Supper Caley Fragalistic Dundee are atrocious!

[PullMyFinger]

Do you feel better now?

Supper Caley?

[KingBeastie]

Yer no' sitting on the fence eh Theweescot?!

Welcome to the forum!