Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[Yngwie]

Wipe the debt away and start afresh, yet again?

Not good news for Jocky and Farningham who I believe are each claiming a 6 figure sum.

[old caley girl]

It beggars belief that when we were envious of their spending and wages budget last season they werent paying the taxman! Surely a club can only go into administration so many times without real sanctions or consequences. Am starting to feel sorry for the fans now as I dont think they saw this coming really.

[Alex MacLeod]

I will not be surprised if Mr Di Stefano is back in the next few weeks.

Interview here

[RiG]

I will not be surprised if Mr Di Stefano is back in the next few weeks.

Interview here

I would be very surprised if he reappears at Dens Park.

[starchief]

Sheez! Democracy doesn't work in politics, what we need are more dictators. Spoken like the true loathsome individual he is.

[ictchris]

Meeting tonight

?365,000!!!!

[Libero]

Meeting tonight

?365,000!!!!

Ouch!!

I'm sure we could help out with their plight, ?10k for Harkins and Griffiths

[12th Man]

Meeting tonight

?365,000!!!!

Ouch!!

I'm sure we could help out with their plight, ?10k for Harkins and Griffiths

Was thinking that too with Griffiths but it could damage the harmony of our strike force.

[PullMyFinger]

Was thinking that too with Griffiths but it could damage the harmony of our strike force.

I'm not so sure Jocky would strike a deal with Grassa though unless it involved a game of connect 4.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

If life seems jolly rotten

There's something you've forgotten

And that's to laugh and smile and dance and sing.

When you're feeling in the dumps

Don't be silly chumps

Just purse your lips and whistle - that's the thing.

And...always look on the bright side of life...

Always look on the light side of life...

And to think they took the Alba Cup off us!

[PullMyFinger]

Joking aside, it's a sad day for Scottish football when so many clubs are facing financial hardship whether it's brought on by themselves or not. If the money was still coming in from TV deals and sponsorship deals, most clubs would be in a much healthier state. The only club I have little or no sympathy for is Hearts as they are consistently spending more on wages than they earn, that's got to catch up with them very soon. Oh, and the old firm too of course. Mustn't forget them.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

30 years ago there were no big TV Deals nor big sponsorship deals. Some people are more attracted to the big lights than others. Some people are more pragmatic than others.

We won the First Division title on blood sweat and tears and a tight budget. That should be the message sent out to all clubs in Scotland.

The rules on points deduction should be strengthened. Clubs should perhaps submit audited statements every three months to their league association showing a true and fair view. Those with income to expenditure ratios such as Dundee and having legacy debt to HMRC beyond a sustainable level should be subject to a player recruitment restriction and pay freeze. That should be built into players contracts which might restrict the role of agents feeding off clubs.

[PullMyFinger]

Don't tie your hands behind your own back, are we all as well informed about our clubs finances as we'd like to think? Our limitted budget as it was last year was still unsustainable for us in the first division and was also one of the biggest given we had one of the largest squads. We had a few decisions go our way in the run in and Dundee lost their bottle, had it gone the other way Dundee could be in the SPL with a healthier bank account, we'd probably be struggling mid to lower table in the first with a much reduced squad/budget and possibly a new management team. There but for the grace of God...

Enjoy what you have but don't forget where you came from.

[CaleyD]

Joking aside, it's a sad day for Scottish football when so many clubs are facing financial hardship whether it's brought on by themselves or not. If the money was still coming in from TV deals and sponsorship deals, most clubs would be in a much healthier state. The only club I have little or no sympathy for is Hearts as they are consistently spending more on wages than they earn, that's got to catch up with them very soon. Oh, and the old firm too of course. Mustn't forget them.

I disagree, if we still had as much coming in from TV and sponsorship then clubs would just be in an even bigger hole. The problem is not the amount of money coming in, it's the amount going out (or not given the debts) and it's a massive swing in mindset of those who run/are allowed to run the clubs in this country that is the issue.

Under the business model used for the majority of clubs there's no incentive for Club Boards to ensure finances are kept properly in check. They can sanction deals and spend without fear as, when it all goes tits up, they can simply walk away. Even if they have invested in clubs it is often by way of the magic "soft loan" and, as is being borne out in Dundee's case, they can use that situation to hold those they owe to ransom...i.e. If you are going to insist on us paying what we owe you now then we'll just put the club in administration and you can join the queue for your 7p in pound settlement.

As has been pointed out, we did not have these issues 30 years ago. That's not because we have more or less money coming in to the game, it's because club ownership models have changed. What shocks me is that the changes have proved to be a disaster from day one and nobody within the upper echelons seems willing/able to see that the only way to get things back on track financially is to return to what worked for both clubs and the game for over 100 years previously.

Football clubs MUST get back to a community ownership based model or we will just continue to lurch from one financial disaster to another. Only when those changes happen will honest, unselfish and truly democratic decisions start being made which are for the benefit of clubs, the fans and the game as a whole.

[Scotty]

Don't tie your hands behind your own back, are we all as well informed about our clubs finances as we'd like to think? Our limitted budget as it was last year was still unsustainable for us in the first division and was also one of the biggest given we had one of the largest squads. We had a few decisions go our way in the run in and Dundee lost their bottle, had it gone the other way Dundee could be in the SPL with a healthier bank account, we'd probably be struggling mid to lower table in the first with a much reduced squad/budget and possibly a new management team. There but for the grace of God...

Enjoy what you have but don't forget where you came from.

green dot for that one. We have been close to the precipice on more than one occasion and as noted above, we might be singing a very different tune ourselves had Dundee sustained their challenge last year and it was us who bottled it. I never have, and never will wish extinction on any club.

I may point fingers at a club who go through financial issues due to mismanagement of finances, and I may be scathing about those who run that club, but at the end of the day, lets not forget that each of those clubs have supporters just like us who are 'normal' football fans supporting the team of their choice and would be devastated if their team went to the wall. For each ar**hole spouting garbage about winning leagues or being smug about how much money they have (when they have it), you have a dozen folk like Heilandee (for example) who just want to support their team and who are all too well aware of what has happened through the bad times as well as the good. As said above ..... 'there but for the grace of god' (and Terry Butcher).

Under the business model used for the majority of clubs there's no incentive for Club Boards to ensure finances are kept properly in check. They can sanction deals and spend without fear as, when it all goes tits up, they can simply walk away. Even if they have invested in clubs it is often by way of the magic "soft loan" and, as is being borne out in Dundee's case, they can use that situation to hold those they owe to ransom...i.e. If you are going to insist on us paying what we owe you now then we'll just put the club in administration and you can join the queue for your 7p in pound settlement. As has been pointed out, we did not have these issues 30 years ago. That's not because we have more or less money coming in to the game, it's because club ownership models have changed. What shocks me is that the changes have proved to be a disaster from day one and nobody within the upper echelons seems willing/able to see that the only way to get things back on track financially is to return to what worked for both clubs and the game for over 100 years previously. Football clubs MUST get back to a community ownership based model or we will just continue to lurch from one financial disaster to another. Only when those changes happen will honest, unselfish and truly democratic decisions start being made which are for the benefit of clubs, the fans and the game as a whole.

As much as he draws a lot of criticism from others, and as much as I have both praised him and also criticised him myself, that is why I am still very thankful for the likes of David Sutherland. I was in the middle of things when we first had a financial hurdle to climb and when we were very close to going to the wall. As noted in Ian Broadfoot's book, I came up with a "pay a player" scheme to try and help out then manager Steve Paterson when it looked like we were going to struggle to pay existing players let alone sign new ones. Fortunately we didnt have to go much further than working on the actual idea and it was never implemented as DFS came along and basically put a financial model in place that has seen us try to live within our means most years.

We have had a few ups and downs in the ensuing years, and as we know from the last couple of years, things have not always been smooth sailing between DFS, our Board, and the Fans. We also do not get it right all the time but in general we are a club that is well run financially and all too well aware of how precarious football finances are.

[starchief]

But there's a big difference with us, most other clubs (certainly in the SFL and outside the OF/Hearts) and Dundee. We are all struggling on a shoestring. Wages have gone up, costs have gone up, so we're finding it all difficult to manage. If that was the case with Dundee, then they would have my sympathies - after all, even budget sides like Cowdenbeath, Clyde, Stranraer, Stirling etc are really struggling with current financial climate - but it's not.

The Dundee Board should have been asking "How can Dundee survive in the SFL whilst owing over quarter of a million in tax?" Instead they're thought was "How can we get promoted soon as?" So they get more loans in to buy expensive players on top wages (weren't they the highest spending club outside Celtic last year?). They spent more than an SFL club should have if it was being prudent. Dundee aren't struggling due to the lack of tv revenues or away support. They're struggling due to simply spending too much money, believing the SPL will beckon with revolution, rather than evolution. And the big word that negates any feelings of sympathy...

...AGAIN!

[Scotty]

The Dundee Board should have been asking "How can Dundee survive in the SFL whilst owing over quarter of a million in tax?" Instead they're thought was "How can we get promoted soon as?" So they get more loans in to buy expensive players on top wages (weren't they the highest spending club outside Celtic last year?). They spent more than an SFL club should have if it was being prudent. Dundee aren't struggling due to the lack of tv revenues or away support. They're struggling due to simply spending too much money, believing the SPL will beckon with revolution, rather than evolution.

Dundee gambled on achieving promotion ..... just like we did, but we perhaps did it on a smaller scale. We won our gamble, they lost theirs and the crazy thing about it is that regardless of the size of the gamble, the prize/payout is the same !!!

If they had been promoted, their debt would be far less of an issue than it is as increased revenue and sponsorship/media income would have offset it. If we had failed our financial loss in the accounts last year would also be far more of an issue than it is. Our "bouncebackability" should see us in a relatively decent financial position come the next set of accounts and the last set will simply be regarded as something we had to do to get back to the SPL!

I agree with the "AGAIN" sentiment regarding Dundee as they didnt seem to learn from past mistakes. ICT have come close to the edge twice by my reckoning and have actually learned lessons. We gambled last year, and our accounts show it, but we didnt gamble to quite the same level that Dundee did and I would suggest that although we would be hurting had we not been promoted, we would not be in as dire straits as Dundee appear to be. I think we can also add Partick to the list of prudent clubs. A recent SPL team that fell far further than both ICT and Dundee and who have slowly but surely tried to rebuild and regroup for a promotion challenge.

[KingBeastie]

I think that is the thing that get to me about this - they don't seem to have learnt a thing from last time.

I do have sympathy for the normal non-playing staff at the club who have not recieved their wages. But that is as far as it goes.

Edited September 30, 2010 by KingBeastie

[PullMyFinger]

I disagree, if we still had as much coming in from TV and sponsorship then clubs would just be in an even bigger hole. The problem is not the amount of money coming in, it's the amount going out (or not given the debts) and it's a massive swing in mindset of those who run/are allowed to run the clubs in this country that is the issue.

My point is that the revenues were relatively safe, so when setting budget plans for say a five year strategy clubs would use the projected income. When this dropped a lot of clubs had existing commitments which resulted in much of the debt that is still being serviced in Scottish football, servicing debt from a reduced income isn't easy.

Under the business model used for the majority of clubs there's no incentive for Club Boards to ensure finances are kept properly in check. They can sanction deals and spend without fear as, when it all goes tits up, they can simply walk away. Even if they have invested in clubs it is often by way of the magic "soft loan" and, as is being borne out in Dundee's case, they can use that situation to hold those they owe to ransom...i.e. If you are going to insist on us paying what we owe you now then we'll just put the club in administration and you can join the queue for your 7p in pound settlement.

That's the chance they take and sometimes it pays off sometimes it fails. Greenock Morton for example are in debt to the tune of a million pounds to their benefactor but he is in no hurry to have it back. He could pass away tomorrow (quite elderly) and his executors could call the loan in, is that mismanagement by their board? I don't think so. We have to trust people but I think the situation with Melville is a bit different as he had no connection at all with DFC before he arrived. What were his motives?

As has been pointed out, we did not have these issues 30 years ago. That's not because we have more or less money coming in to the game, it's because club ownership models have changed. What shocks me is that the changes have proved to be a disaster from day one and nobody within the upper echelons seems willing/able to see that the only way to get things back on track financially is to return to what worked for both clubs and the game for over 100 years previously.

I'd much rather entrust my club to a man who has a vested interest in it rather than a group that want success at any cost. By all means have a greater share ownership in the community (at ICT I believe there are still shares available to buy?) but to guide a successful business you need a successful business leader. We have one.

Football clubs MUST get back to a community ownership based model or we will just continue to lurch from one financial disaster to another. Only when those changes happen will honest, unselfish and truly democratic decisions start being made which are for the benefit of clubs, the fans and the game as a whole.

Community ownership, should we split the club and rejoin the Highland league? (have you read animal farm?) If we'd had a greater community ownership in the early 90s I don't believe ICT would exist.

green dot for that one. We have been close to the precipice on more than one occasion and as noted above, we might be singing a very different tune ourselves had Dundee sustained their challenge last year and it was us who bottled it. I never have, and never will wish extinction on any club.

It's all too easy to point and laugh without giving much thought to what the consequences could have been for us if we'd stayed in the first division.

But there's a big difference with us, most other clubs (certainly in the SFL and outside the OF/Hearts) and Dundee. We are all struggling on a shoestring. Wages have gone up, costs have gone up, so we're finding it all difficult to manage. If that was the case with Dundee, then they would have my sympathies - after all, even budget sides like Cowdenbeath, Clyde, Stranraer, Stirling etc are really struggling with current financial climate - but it's not.

Dundee are no different though are they? They get a tax bill and it threatens their existence. Okay it shouldn't be a surprise to them, but they took a gamble at reaching the SPL which if it had paid off would have seen them sitting pretty (a couple of sell out crowds a season). They had a benefactor who promised to back them (would you turn down a soft loan for a shot at the big time) who as it turns out has his own problems.

Look at ourselves a few years ago, our board got us into a mountain of debt and it looked like we would have to go part time then we got a massive boost with a cup run and the momentum carried us trough to the SPL with the help of our current benefactor. If he was to walk would we survive or go into freefall? You've just got to trust in people.

The Dundee Board should have been asking "How can Dundee survive in the SFL whilst owing over quarter of a million in tax?" Instead they're thought was "How can we get promoted soon as?" So they get more loans in to buy expensive players on top wages (weren't they the highest spending club outside Celtic last year?). They spent more than an SFL club should have if it was being prudent. Dundee aren't struggling due to the lack of tv revenues or away support. They're struggling due to simply spending too much money, believing the SPL will beckon with revolution, rather than evolution. And the big word that negates any feelings of sympathy...

...AGAIN!

There are many clubs outside of the SPL with far greater debt than Dundee, should they clear that debt before concentrating on football matters? What about the SPL then? eg. Rangers?

It would be wrong for a club of Dundee's size and stature not to aim for promotion (why compete if you don't want to win?) They took a chance on Melville, is he backing out, is he letting them down?

They had the biggest transfer budget next to Celtic which was covered by Melville. I would be surprised if their wages bill was dissimilar to ours.

I believe that league restructuring will be Dundee's route back to the SPL if they can see off the wolves at their door just now. Good luck to them....again!

[CaleyD]

PMF, I am not calling into question the actions/motives of the Board at ICT or any other club, nor am I questioning the motives of any benefactors. It's the system/models that they operate under which are fundamentally flawed and not conducive with running financially stable/viable football clubs in the long term....90+ cases of clubs in the UK going into administration in the past 20 years is testament to that.

[PullMyFinger]

Sorry CD, but I think you're pi55ing in the wind there. All systems have their flaws because humans are involved in them and we are emotive beings. Who wouldn't take a wee gamble if the rewards were great? Rules may guide people to correct actions but rules can be interpreted to suit each circumstance.

I appreciate your concerns but I doubt that it workable let alone probable that the associations will impose business models with financial rules/restrictions on member clubs. The member clubs would simply veto it or set up another association.

[Heilandee]

I'll chip in my tuppence worth here, haven't been posting much of late as much of my enthusiasm and passion has been knocked with events since January,I was angry,mystified and let down by the capitulation and lack of fight of overpaid players last season, but this doesn't come close to the disgust and anger i now feel on discovering yet again we have been the victims of lies and half truths. I don't pretend to understand business models and high finance, i do however understand the huge amount of hard work and endeavour along with hard earned cash,put in by thousands of honest punters trying to drag THIER club back from the brink in 2003.DEE4LIFE bought into the club owning 26% of shares and got a fans representative on the board,supposedly to prevent this situation ever occurring again,we had what appeared to be a very credible board who had turned things round after administration and were assured the club was debt free,Calum Melville, we were told, was the icing on the debt free cake and was prepared to invest in the hope of returning us to SPL status.

Everything in the garden was rosy, what could go wrong eh? Alarm bells started to ring with the constant refusal of the board to honour a promise made to fans with regards to transparency that an annual Q&A would be held with board being answerable to supporters,this has yet to materialise and many supporters have voiced their discontent on this matter and the resignation of the DEE4LIFE chairman further heightened concerns.

Most fans can put up with footballing disappointment,FFS we're used to that,but the continued mismanagement, lies and duplicity over 40 years gets wearing. I'll watch the current fiasco through my fingers but aint optimistic about a happy outcome. All we ask is a team of players who give a feck,even a fraction as much as the support,a competent and honest board and a win now and again would be nice,no too much to ask surely?

[PullMyFinger]

Not too much to ask, no. Bbut it may be in the lower echelons for a while yet before DFC can rebuild. It's not possible to survive on past glories, there really needs to be a long term plan in place which is where Dundee failed.

Good luck.

[Johnboy]

H/Dee...

You have my sincere and heartfelt condolences regarding the recent turn of events in the City of Discovery - which is of course, just across the firth from fabulous Fife. When I heard what was happening there, I very nearly ran round to your place with that bottle of 10yo Glenfarclas - in fact the only thing that stopped me doing that was the fact that I drunk it all within 24 hours of you giving it to me.

I sincerely hope that DFC survive this crisis - and I'm sure they will in some shape or form, but please remember if the worst came to the worst (and I'm sure you already know this) you'd be made more than welcome to sit amongst the ICT support at TCS. They eventually (well some of them) accepted me as a supporter after I handed over my hard-earned for a season ticket here.

Supporting this club certainly has its ups and downs, but as long as I live in this city, I will continue to support this club. Nothing makes me more angry than the sight of a bus-load decked out in green or blue leaving here en-route to Glasgow.

Good luck, and best regards,

Jb

[Yngwie]

I see the Dundee players didn't get paid today, which is never a good sign.

Presumably any money Dundee have got is being used to pay their new signing and highest paid star, Blair Nimmo.