Melville / Dundee / 25pt Deduction

[PullMyFinger]

It wasn't just the players that didn't get paid though, they've been told they'll get it next week.

Some parallels are appearing with what happened at Livi and Gretna. It's sad.

[CaleyD]

PMF, if I am just "pissing in the wind" then how do you explain the 90+ instances of administration among football clubs in the last 20 years and it being a once in a blue moon phenomenon prior to that?

Should we just continue as we are? What makes the UK so different from other countries who do have legislation/rules in place for business models pertaining to the running of football clubs, not only at association level but at government level as well? Is it pure coincidence that these countries rank amongst the best in the world?

The UK is in the minority in terms of allowing football clubs to operate under the kinds of private business models they do....and that's what attracts so many of the "wrong" kinds of people to get involved in buying clubs here. They do so either for personal benefit or as a mere play thing/status symbol. Even when "benefactors" have good intentions their is insufficient controls in place to stop things getting out of hand and as we have witnessed time and again those good intentions can quickly disappear when the money doesn't buy the success they hoped for or other factors put an end to the constant investment.

I've read endless reports and papers on the subject. I've spoken to people from other clubs in Europe (and not talking about a fan in the street) and they find the whole football setup in this country to be extremely bizarre. The concept of fans selling out their club to individuals or groups of individuals in the way we do is totally alien to them.

?250,000 a year of new, no strings attached investment in to ICT every year would be a huge boost to us, but you're going to be hard pushed to find any single investor willing to do that long term. What you can do though is create a situation whereby your fans are more willing to spend on/with the club. Sounds a bit pie in the sky, but all you need is 500 fans spending ?50 more a season. Fans will only spend more if they are getting what they want...they will only get what they want if they have a say in what is being provided....they will only get a say if we have a more open membership/community based setup that allows them a real voice.

If these "benefactors" were really only interested in what's best for the club then why do they insist on having control? "Protect their investment" is one argument, but what about protecting the investment of the thousands of fans who invest in the club week in, week out for years on end? If the power to make decisions is to be determined by the amount of money a person has put in to the club then no matter which way you cut it, the fans put in far more than anyone else.

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

Inverness have a payment by results system so far as I know which ultimately incentivised people to perform. Dundee took players like Richie Hart on what appeared to be on high fixed wages and long term contracts. There were others with one or two quite big transfer fees paid. In general Meldrew went in not only a as saviour but benefactor. His ego grew. Nobody did due diligence on him. They believed he was a philanthropist almost. As a 'businessman' he appears to have allowed costs to escalate beyond his expectations or else he could pay the tax bill now and then walk away. He did of course promise to stay for the long term.

The culture he seems to have engendered is the sugar daddy not the pragmatic manager or business person. We can have severe gratitude that our club, despite its criticisms, has after a major shock sought to operate on a very sensible basis. Most clubs live on a knife edge so ICT's scrapes with survival are probably quite common.

However, after Gretna's flirtation with a sugar daddy, someone should have been stricter with what happened at Dundee and second time around in recent years. Only a fool does not learn from a recent big mistake. The lesson for all clubs is 'where are Gretna now?'

[Scotty]

£250,000 a year of new, no strings attached investment in to ICT every year would be a huge boost to us, but you're going to be hard pushed to find any single investor willing to do that long term. What you can do though is create a situation whereby your fans are more willing to spend on/with the club. Sounds a bit pie in the sky, but all you need is 500 fans spending £50 more a season.

Think you would need 5000 fans at £50 (or 500 fans at £500) and neither would happen at ICT

[PullMyFinger]

PMF, if I am just "pissing in the wind" then how do you explain the 90+ instances of administration among football clubs in the last 20 years and it being a once in a blue moon phenomenon prior to that?

You seem to be offended by my choice of language, my apologies. I believe that fan ownership while emotionally appealing would be detrimental to clubs like ourselves. I enjoy entertaining SPL clubs in Inverness but don't believe that we would even have got to the top half of the First division without having good business minds at the helm. Unless of course you think they would still be there and supplying wads of cash as and when requested?

Should we just continue as we are? What makes the UK so different from other countries who do have legislation/rules in place for business models pertaining to the running of football clubs, not only at association level but at government level as well? Is it pure coincidence that these countries rank amongst the best in the world?

I may be wrong as I haven't actually seen the business model, but I'm guessing these successful teams you talk of have a wider fanbase than ourselves with a much larger cashflow. For each of the successful ones, how many poor ones are there? What are their facilities like? Do they have a quality stadium?

The UK is in the minority in terms of allowing football clubs to operate under the kinds of private business models they do....and that's what attracts so many of the "wrong" kinds of people to get involved in buying clubs here. They do so either for personal benefit or as a mere play thing/status symbol. Even when "benefactors" have good intentions their is insufficient controls in place to stop things getting out of hand and as we have witnessed time and again those good intentions can quickly disappear when the money doesn't buy the success they hoped for or other factors put an end to the constant investment.

Regulation isn't the answer, that would repel many potential investors who would opt to put their money elsewhere.

I've read endless reports and papers on the subject. I've spoken to people from other clubs in Europe (and not talking about a fan in the street) and they find the whole football setup in this country to be extremely bizarre. The concept of fans selling out their club to individuals or groups of individuals in the way we do is totally alien to them.

That's like the shampoo adverts on telly CD, in tests 79% of women say they prefer it (12 women asked). Having a figurehead at a club who is able to make split second decisions is what drives them forward, decisions by committee take for ever and are usually a compromise. That's fine if you want mediocrity.

?250,000 a year of new, no strings attached investment in to ICT every year would be a huge boost to us, but you're going to be hard pushed to find any single investor willing to do that long term. What you can do though is create a situation whereby your fans are more willing to spend on/with the club. Sounds a bit pie in the sky, but all you need is 500 fans spending ?50 more a season. Fans will only spend more if they are getting what they want...they will only get what they want if they have a say in what is being provided....they will only get a say if we have a more open membership/community based setup that allows them a real voice.

What form would that voice take? A member on the board? DEE4LIFE have a member on the Dundee board, what good did it do them?

If these "benefactors" were really only interested in what's best for the club then why do they insist on having control? "Protect their investment" is one argument, but what about protecting the investment of the thousands of fans who invest in the club week in, week out for years on end? If the power to make decisions is to be determined by the amount of money a person has put in to the club then no matter which way you cut it, the fans put in far more than anyone else.

A hypothetical question here, if you won the EuroMillions tonight and decided to invest millions in ICT would you not want a say in how it was spent? Okay we're going to build a firewatch tower higher than the bridge. I know that if I invested I wouldn't necessarily want to protect my money but I'd certainly want to be sure it was being spent wisely.

I would be interested to see what business models you refer too above, not to dissect them but from a fans point of view. I have my opinions but also an open mind.

[CaleyD]

?250,000 a year of new, no strings attached investment in to ICT every year would be a huge boost to us, but you're going to be hard pushed to find any single investor willing to do that long term. What you can do though is create a situation whereby your fans are more willing to spend on/with the club. Sounds a bit pie in the sky, but all you need is 500 fans spending ?50 more a season.

Think you would need 5000 fans at ?50 (or 500 fans at ?500) and neither would happen at ICT

Typo, I meant to put 5000 @ ?50.

Whilst we don't have 5000 regular fans at the moment, I don't think it would be all that difficult to achieve if things were run a bit different. Again, not a dig at anyone...ICT, like many other clubs, operate within a system that, IMO, is fundamentally flawed and one which would take a huge amount of effort and change in mindset to change. The effort and change in mindset needs to come from everyone.

The ?50 per head doesn't have to come directly from a person spending more it can be done by delivering costs savings. Volunteers actually have a value and if you can get people volunteering to do more then that delivers savings. One of the biggest obstacles in getting volunteers is the "ICT are a business, they should be able to pay for these things, why should I do it". To change that you have to give back ownership or the feeling of ownership to the fans in some way.

There's no one thing on it's own going to magically change the situation or make everything all wonderful overnight. It takes a bit of time and effort from everyone and for the fans are their own worst enemy as the majority of them have their heads buried in the sand and/or waste lots of effort spouting off and very little effort actually doing anything to make it better....they are happy enough to sit back and wait for the next sugar daddy or look to others to take care of it.

[CaleyD]

PMF, I'll reply in more depth later. However one point just now....when I talk about "Community Based Business Models" I'm not referring to clubs being entirely owned by fans, although they would fall in to that category. I'm talking about business models where all stakeholders have a properly structured say/hand in the running of the club.

I'll point you in the direction of some reading material on the subject later tonight or over the weekend, but if you want to take a look at Football Clubs who are "Registered Associations" - FC Barcelona, Athletic Bilbao and Real Madrid being three examples off the top of my head - then you may better understand what I am on about.

Incidentally UEFA very much champion the concept and theirs every chance that if football in the country wants to continue to compete participate on the larger stage they will have no choice but to change. Even our own government are looking at ways to implement changes that give fans a legislative right to "mutually owned" club status.

Take a read of this for just now - http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=7298 - not sure how much it will mean to you if you are not aware of what is actually happening on the larger football political stage, but it will highlight that I am not "pissing in the wind" (yeah, throwing it back at you again...lol) and I am certainly not alone in my thoughts on what is needed to change the game for the better.

[+DoofersDad]

You have my sympathies Highlandee. But it could be a lot worse. Bromsgrove Rovers, the local club I supported when at school has folded this year after a 125 year history. Having been 2nd in the Conference a few years back, new owners bled the club dry taking money out of a profitable social club and the club went into adminstration last year. The owners refused to talk to anyone to save the club and as a result a group of supporters established a new club, Bromsgrove Spoorting, in order to preserve football in the town. As it happened the lease on the ground expired this year and both clubs applied. Rover's application was childlike in its presentation and the owners even spelt the name of the town incorrectly! The Council gave the lease to Sporting which resulted in Rover's owners squatting at the ground and refusing to hand the keys over. Finally they left when it emerged that the ground and property had been extensively vandalised. This included some spiteful petty vandalism such as goal posts being removed and concrete poured in the holes - weed killer being splashed over parts of the pitch - fuses being removed from the floodlights etc. As a result, Sporting have been unable to play any home games yet. From the heady conference days of Rovers, Sporting are starting their life about 6 levels below in the Midland Combination Division 2. However, it is a real community club now and I look forward to watching their progress onwards and upwards in the coming years.

Hopefully nothing so dire will happen to Dundee, but if it does, well...there is always another team in the city you could support!

[Granty24]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/d/dundee/9044022.stm

Well, it looks like night night Dundee

[Yngwie]

BBC now reporting that Dundee were unsuccessful in their latest negociations with HMRC, and administration is now inevitable and imminent.

"Dundee" and "unsuccessful" are words that just seem to go well together.

[ICTPaisley]

Pop them down to the third division where they belong.

[RiG]

Taken from the Dundee site:

The directors of Dundee Football Club have today decided that their only option is to place the Club into administration.

The administration appointment is expected to take effect from the middle of next week and the directors have approached Bryan Jackson of accountants PKF to consider being appointed as administrator.

The directors have taken this decision with considerable regret, but they believe they have no other choice in the current circumstances.

Until the administration is effective all staff will remain in post and the Club will continue to operate normally.

[ictchris]

Apparently total debts are over ?2,000,000?

If they went into administration in 2003, how can they have run up that much debt until now? I presume that it's 'soft loans' to directors. It also seems that Melville's last investment was simply to cover the administrators fees.

God save us from 'benefactors'. John Boyle, the Marrs, Callum Melville, Massano, Miles Brookson - disaster after disaster!

[MissICT]

GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED!

now put all my mocking aside!

I do feel a tad bit sorry for the Dundee fans and Staff. There will be innocent people losing there jobs. It will be hard for all at the club (expect from the director) as it wasn't their fault that this has happened!

[Div1309]

would you take any of the dundee players? i would take harkins if available for free. im sure richie could get rid of the ego he seems to have and get him working well in the team

[RiG]

http://www.dundeefc.co.uk/news_detail.asp?newsid=1238

Into administration now.

[Tug]

out of curiosity how quick could we sign someone if they are made redundant on firday?? im guessing saturdays game would be out of the question

[SeanSelkirk]

would you take any of the dundee players? i would take harkins if available for free. im sure richie could get rid of the ego he seems to have and get him working well in the team

I wouldn't mind Leigh Griffihs Upfront with Rooney

[CaleyD]

The scariest thing in all of this is that I can't help but feel that Dundee saw this coming over a year ago, or at least it was one of the options/risks on the table when they decided to try and buy the league last season. There's no way they could have thought that the financial situation they had placed the club in was going to be sustainable without promotion AND they knew they did not have the resources to repeat the exercise.

Many saw this coming when the "plan" to take Div 1 last season derailed, and unfortunately I very much doubt they will be the only Scottish club to go to the wall this season.

What now? If we look at recent precedent then Dundee should be relegated to the 3rd Div but that can't happen until the end of the season...in the meantime they can strip costs back to the bare bones, offload all players and take in part-timers on minimum wage whilst benefiting from Div 1 level income.

Once again the fundamental flaws in the way the game operates in the country are shown up to be inadequate and unsuitable...but I don't hold out much hope of anything changing. We'll all just continue to bury our head in the sand and fool ourselves into believing it will never happen to our clubs.

[caley100]

would you take any of the dundee players? i would take harkins if available for free. im sure richie could get rid of the ego he seems to have and get him working well in the team

Who's Richie?

I'm sure Dundee will keep the players worth money ie Harkins and Griffiths till january and get some income from transfers for them.

[Yngwie]

The Dundee board have surely known since we won the league that this was going to happen. They had the chance in the summer to offload more players and to sell off the prize assets of Griffiths and Harkins. If they had acted responsibly Dundee would have surely been secure for another season at least.

Whilst it's a shame for genuine Dundee fans, I am absolutely delighted that ICT played a vital role in ensuring that Melville & Co get their comeuppance.

[Ronaldo]

This was a just a gamble that really didn't pay off

All Dundee fans have my sympathies and I hope it never happens to us.

[CaleyD]

This was a just a gamble that really didn't pay off

All Dundee fans have my sympathies and I hope it never happens to us.

A gamble which should not have been possible for them to take if the proper controls were in place.

In regards to any sympathies...not so sure I have too many. Dundee fans should have learned a lesson last time around, but they didn't and they allowed themselves to be led down the same path again the moment someone came in waving the cheque book.

As the saying goes...."Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me"

[CaleyD]

would you take any of the dundee players? i would take harkins if available for free. im sure richie could get rid of the ego he seems to have and get him working well in the team

Who's Richie?

I'm sure Dundee will keep the players worth money ie Harkins and Griffiths till january and get some income from transfers for them.

Early reports are suggesting that they need to shave around 70% off the wage bill in order to bring the clubs running costs within it's current income levels... not so sure they will have the luxury of trying to hold these players till January in the hope they might be able to sell them.

If I was a club with a genuine interest in any of the players then I'd not be quick to throw a fee at Dundee when they are being forced to get them off the books and they could be got for free (or a signing on fee which would be less than any transfer fee)

[Yngwie]

As the saying goes...."Fool me once, shame on you; Fool me twice, shame on me"

Or as Melville probably would have said if George W. Bush hadn't beaten him to it:

"There?s an old?saying in Tennessee?I know it?s in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says Fool me once?(3 second pause)? Shame on?(4 second pause)?Shame on you?.(6 second pause)?Fool me?Can?t get fooled again. "