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10 Team SPL - Confirmed...


Iain

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There's no way there's not going to be a 10 team league, regardless of the level of supporter discontent. The OF want it, and what they want, they get. When it comes, I think the game here will lose even more fans than it is now. Me included. I can think of nothing duller than watching the same 9 teams 4 times a year.

At the end of the day, the only way the clubs will listen is if the fans hit them in the pockets. A mass stay away from the games should be organised by all supporters clubs across the country. Pick a weekend, fans stay away, grounds are empty, clubs lose cash....the publicity created would be enormous. But it'll never happen. So, onwards to the death of Scottish football.

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At the end of the day, the only way the clubs will listen is if the fans hit them in the pockets. A mass stay away from the games should be organised by all supporters clubs across the country. Pick a weekend, fans stay away, grounds are empty, clubs lose cash....the publicity created would be enormous. But it'll never happen. So, onwards to the death of Scottish football.

Thats why i have sarted a group on Facebook. First plan is to get as many fans, from as many clubs as possible to join. The next step is to throw some ideas about regarding what would be the best plan of attack. Thirs step...hopefully enuff fans would would do more than just talk the talk, and get of their asses and protest en masse!

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Listened to Radio Scotland when driving home tonight becoming more and more irate at a number of issues.

Firstly, the lack of pointed questioning by the alledged journalistic expert on the panel, Jim Traynor. He allowed Doncaster to get off with murder and continue to spout the party line without challenge. Despite his continuing utterances that "this is only option" at no point was he asked or forced to explain why!!!!! Any journo worth his salt would surely have sought detail on the numbers to the question CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO THE LISTENERS AND SUPPORTERS WHY A 16 OR 18 TEAM LEAGUE DOES NOT WORK FINANCIALLY? He was allowed to make this statement continually without being forced to provide any evidence therefore, I, like everyone else, remain in the dark like an undervalued mushroom becoming harder to find each year. **** poor journalism!

Secondly, the ridiculously poor quality of the presentation by Doncaster both in terms of substance and delivery. If this is the best calibre of individual our beloved SPL leaders can source to represent them then it is little wonder our game is in the shambles it is. Monotonous, uninspiring and melancholic are three words that come to mind. Surely Topping and company must recognise that if they wish to continue to sell such a sub standard product to the public they must, at least, engage a salesman of substance and stature not the man form the Pru on his final week before being made redundant.

Thirdly, I was disappointed (unusually) by the contribution of our major shareholder. If we have, or are going to, surrender and join the Self Preservation Group just say so! There is no shame in having a position but at least do the decent thing and explain the stance, the reasons why and the aim for the future. As magnificent as he was on the show the previous week, I was left confused by his lack of concise answers this evening.

Finally, thank you John Roberston. Not a big fan of the wee man but he deserves great credit for trying to take Doncaster to task. Sadly, he did not receive any support from the profession whose job it is to do so but, despite his primary expertise and training being in football, he at least laid a glove on the pompous ****. 100% agree with him (and have said so on other topics) that this is the only opportunity to save our game and must be grasped. Keep fighting Robbo!

I'm off to hit the bottle with a blank sheet of paper and a pen. My task tonight is to write a paper for my son on: WHY CHANGING THE SCOTTISH FOOTBALL STRUCTURE FROM 12, 10,10, 10 TO 10, 12,10,10 REPRESENTS RADICAL CHANGE? Will be here all night...........................................

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The more you think about the proposal being championed by the SPL beaks, the scarier it gets.

For a start, they would have to introduce the same "criteria" for membership of the SPL2 as they do for SPL1 in regards to Stadia, USH, Licensing etc. Partly because every one of the 20/22 teams that are a member of the SPL would have to be governed by the same rules and partly because a failure to create a level playing field would, in effect, leave us with a league structure that has two MASSIVE points of failure.......

One of the arguments used is that they can create a better play-off situation and have more meaningful games.....however, what happens if (when) you get the following.....

1. Champions of SPL2 fail to meet criteria for SPL1 and/or Teams in play off position at upper end of SPL2 fail to meet criteria for SPL1, who gets promoted (if anyone) and do you have several sets of play off rules depending on how many teams you have who meet the criteria?

2. Champions of whatever league/s exist below the SPL2 fail to meet the SPL2 criteria and/or those in play off places fail to meet SPL2 criteria.....same problem as above.

You end up with meaningless play off games as the teams can't go up anyway or you have no play off games at all and those much anticipated play-off money spinners that everyone was looking forward too don't transpire. How happy are the TV companies, sponsors, advertisers, fans, clubs going to be then?

What you effectively end up with is the continuation of a system which encourages and nigh on insists that smaller clubs spend beyond their means in order to be able to advance up the leagues....only instead of one bottle neck you have two and you force the pressure to spend further down the tables and on to teams who are even less well equipped to meet the financial requirements than the teams whom the burden currently lies on. It's proved devastating enough for Div1 teams who aspire to play in the SPL to be spending the money required for unneeded infrastructure, absolutely no way that Div2 teams could afford it.

The alternative for those clubs outwith the SPL1/2 setup is to accept their lot and give up any hope they might have of promotion to the upper leagues.

How can either of those scenarios be good for the game?

They would be just as well saying "We're going to cut the number of senior clubs in Scotland in half and have a single 22 team league"....it would generate the same outcome, get rid of two thirds of the administration, spread the money more evenly and at least you'd be saved from the monotony of playing the same teams over and over and over.

The 10/12 setup makes even less sense than the 10/10 setup, and the fact that the SPL are now peddling this idea makes them look even more incompetent than they already did. The big argument from the start has been "We need to do it for the money"...so why does adding another two teams into the mix make it more financially attractive than before? Could it be that taking all 10 Div1 teams into the fold simply makes it easier to sell to the SFL and SFA as it removes the need for any reconstruction on their part?

One other glaringly worrying thing in all of this is why are the SFA sitting back and allowing the SPL to decide what is good for football in Scotland? Here we have an organisation who split away from the rest and who's main reason for doing so was because they felt they could make more money for themselves. What's changed? Why should we suddenly believe that their motives for change now are any different than the motives for creating the organisation in the first place? What's more, why should they be allowed to call all the shots and why isn't it the SFA who are leading the way in bringing about any change that may be needed? They (the SFA) are the senior association in Scotland, the SFL and SPL only operate under license to them and the SPL should have been smacked into place the moment they started talking about "restructuring Scottish Football".

In fact, what do the SFA actually do these days? I'm half hoping, but not holding my breath, that the SPL will go to them with their proposal and the SFA will just go...."nah, no thanks, get back in your box....and while you're there, pack your things because you've made enough of a mockery of the game and we're pulling the plug on you"....we can but dream!!!

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We are going to carry this on the front page shortly ... but seems appropriate to put it in here too .....

ICT press release (issued less than an hour ago)

Fourteen folds!

subhead: Caley Jags are unsuccessful in opposing 10-team top flight

Inverness Caledonian Thistle FC chairman George Fraser, who supported a 14-team SPL at today's SPL meeting, admits to being "extremely disappointed" that their preferred option lacked support.

Mr Fraser said: "The question was asked at the meeting for a show of hands in favor of a 14-team division and only Hearts, Kilmarnock and ourselves voted for it. Our club remains convinced it was the best option for supporters and entertaining football and we're extremely disappointed that when it came to the crunch, the necessary support was not there.

"Apparently the majority of clubs felt the 14-team option was not financially viable and we have to accept the democratic decision of the meeting on the day.

"Further work is to be done over the next few weeks on the Strategic Review Team's proposals and when their completed business model becomes available, Caley Thistle will carefully study the detail with an open mind."

Well good for George Fraser seems like we have more than one Grande Cajoles in the ICT set up and I have no sympathy for the ones who have gone along with this who get relegated and stay in SPL2 .

If there is a crumb of comfort its that after the last meeting Neil Doncaster came out and said the meeting had gone well with all parties infavor of a 10 team league to find out this was not the case, there may be a few twists and turns yet.

Fact 1, the current teams in SFL div 1 will find it extremely difficult to gain promotion to SPL1,due to competing with 3 SPL teams.

Fact 2, 3 clubs will be kicked out of the SPL 16 months from now, and they will have voted for it???

The irony is that the 4 clubs opposing the ground hog league are the ones most likely to finish in the top six this year

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It doesn't matter what we say as the fans, we will never be heard, no one truly cares what we think and this has been shown by the complete lack of respect being being shown towards us. Should the SPL and SFA care about what we think there is ample opportunity every week to find out the fans views as we pass through the turnstiles, how about the surveys they say they have conducted be aimed at actual fans turning up every week. If they truly cared, this amongst many other things would have been taken into account.

It all comes down to money at the end of the day, like it or not football is treated as a business now, yes it has always been a business but not to the extent it is now.

Can we blame the OF for wanting more money and wanting to drive forward, no not really, money makes you greedy, makes you want more, it's not their fault that the tv companies want them on their screens more and more especially against each other and no one can say that these tv companies aren't driving this forward either.

Part of me thinks that the clubs who are voting for this are doing it on the back of their absolutely disgraceful decision to go with the last Setanta deal as opposed to the then slightly lesser deal offered by Sky, therefore making it look like now they are doing the best for the game and back the OF and Aberdeen unlike before with the tv deal, almost like they don't want to rock the boat again.

The only hope is that the SFA kick this into touch, which going by their track record won't happen, they'll roll over and be trodden upon. Can we rely on the three/four clubs who are opposed to the idea digging their heals in and stopping it from happening, I don't think so. Yes one or two might but that won't be enough. A top flight of ten and second flight of twelve is no different from what we have now except flipped around, funny that considering it doesn't take much to 'restructure' this therefore not causing much of a problem for restructuring the lower leagues who again are being left in the cold. Ten never worked before and will never work again, play-offs won't work either unless their are completely no stipulations with who can move up or down as there were with previous play-offs we've had.

I for one can only see our game plunging into deep depths of despair

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At the end of the day, the only way the clubs will listen is if the fans hit them in the pockets. A mass stay away from the games should be organised by all supporters clubs across the country. Pick a weekend, fans stay away, grounds are empty, clubs lose cash....the publicity created would be enormous. But it'll never happen. So, onwards to the death of Scottish football.

Thats why i have sarted a group on Facebook. First plan is to get as many fans, from as many clubs as possible to join. The next step is to throw some ideas about regarding what would be the best plan of attack. Thirs step...hopefully enuff fans would would do more than just talk the talk, and get of their asses and protest en masse!

Think the likes of Facebook are great for communicating and spreading the word, but not so good for organising and getting things done.

Before anything can/should be done, we first need to get informed, we need to get as much information from what happened/was proposed at todays meeting as possible and communicate that to the fans.

Given ICT's position, I wouldn't envisage us having any problem getting the information, and it's maybe an idea that the Supporters Trust speak to George Fraser (which I am sure they will do anyway) and them organise a fans meeting at the stadium in order to communicate that to us. The meeting should be open to anyone, including fans of other teams who live in the area, as this is not ultimately about just ICT and the more people involved the better.

Hopefully other Supporters Trusts up and down the country would be willing to repeat the exercise and once all these meetings have taken place then representatives from each can arrange to bring all the information, questions and issues together so that our concerns can be presented in a strong, single voice to the necessary people and organisations.

Any other action/protests/displays can also be co-ordinated in similar fashion.....better to have a widely identifiable "sign" of protest than lots of small groups doing their own thing and losing focus by turning heads in several directions trying to keep up.

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Well, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

If the fans get bored stiff with such a poor variety of fare then there may well be a significant backlash. Clubs will then rue the day.

Once you lose a customer (and this to the clubs is a business not a pleasure trip first off)it is very hard to get them back even if senior fooitball in Scotland has a bit of a monopoly.

The truth is that a resentful customer (fan) is not a good propect for a future sale. When the purveyor of the service gets arrogant or complacent with either their service, or their attitude, --OR BOTH-- then there is a fall coming down the road.

At that point a huge change of heart, and darned quick it will have to be, will be mandatory on the part of the beaks or the whole damn game will die on the vine.

If all the "rebels" caved -in all I can ask is how much money did it take to win them over? :shrug:

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And, before I go to bed, the other question is ..."What part has the T.V. Revenue played in all this?"

And..." If Mr George Fraser, who is a very shrewd business man, thinks that a 14 -team SPL was viable then what were the criteria and forces at work here that jockeyed the other rebels , or bullied them, into apparent submission.

And, remember when the barstewards tried to prevent ICT from joining the SPL and forced us to go to Pittodrie to get our chance,we had a petition going on our webpage which garnered a lot of signatures and won the day.

I think we should do it again and contact all the website forums of as many other clubs as possible to rally their support.

As for boycotting? --not yet. That will only hurt George Fraser and the Club when they need our support the most.

Wait until the Old Firm games come up and go to all the home matches but walk out after 20 minutes enmasse, as someone has suggested,and demonstrate outside the stadium peacefully to attract media atention and DO NOT GO AT ALL to Ibrox and Parkhead for every other match.

Don't put a cent into the pockets of Rangers or Celtic .

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Once you lose a customer (and this to the clubs is a business not a pleasure trip first off)it is very hard to get them back even if senior fooitball in Scotland has a bit of a monopoly.

The truth is that a resentful customer (fan) is not a good propect for a future sale. When the purveyor of the service gets arrogant or complacent with either their service, or their attitude, --OR BOTH-- then there is a fall coming down the road.

As the old business adage goes, it is 10 times harder to win back a customer than it was to win them the first time.

Once bitten and all that . . .

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What really annoys me is how Doncaster continually ignores the views of the fans. Without the fans there would be no football in Scotland yet he sees fit to push forward with plans which the majority of football fans are dead against.

Some of the quotes attributed to him are laughable at best.

This quote from Doncaster really annoyed me;

SPL chief executive Neil Doncaster said: "The tier underneath the Premier League is weak. We're going for a system that pushes money down to help those clubs and further Scottish football.

6 different winners in the last 6 years? that to me doesnt sound weak, it sounds competitive.

While the first division may not be glamourous or full of super-rich teams buying European superstars it is a highly competitive league full of teams trying to play football and trying to win the league which almost any team has a chance of. Clearly Doncaster doesnt want a competitive league, he seems happy for the SPL to continue to be a closed shop and dominated by the Old Fim.

I have no faith in this man to rescue or indeed improve scottish football in any way whatsoever.

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CAN YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN TO THE LISTENERS AND SUPPORTERS WHY A 16 OR 18 TEAM LEAGUE DOES NOT WORK FINANCIALLY?

Translation: Rangers and Celtic don't like it because this means they will play each other less over the course of a season.

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What really annoys me is how Doncaster continually ignores the views of the fans. Without the fans there would be no football in Scotland yet he sees fit to push forward with plans which the majority of football fans are dead against.

It is quite clear that the option they are going for is the money from TV route. Screw the fans, screw the 32 "non-elite" teams, and although they (the teams) dont yet realise it, screw the other 8 non "super-elite" teams that will be in the SPL in Scotland. Everything is geared to making money for the OF to help them compete in Europe and that is something they will never do on the scraps we are fed from TV companies. Many clubs in other countries have more sitting in petty cash than we have in our whole income model for a year. Alex Ferguson could probably sponsor the SPL for a decade with the money he's lost down the back of his couch !

This plan was born in 2003 not 2010 and no amount of dressing up can persuade me that Mr McLeish's "review" was anything other than a smokescreen to get this plan which has been gathering dust on the shelf back into play. It was a bad idea 8 years ago and it was a bad idea 8 minutes ago.

Doncaster's whole argument seems to stem around the "4 home games" that each club will lose in a league of 16 (no mention of 14 funnily enough). It proves just how one dimensional the man is .... ok, I agree, a league of 16 is really terrible, its absolute nonsense, it would never work and the person who thought it up should be locked up (sarcasm) .... for a start we would only play each team once at home and once away which I suggest would enhance crowds not decrease them ... if you know you are only going to see Celtic once at the TCS each year then maybe the attendance would be 7750 instead of 6000. Multiply higher gates throughout the season and maybe the suggested shortfall would be made up .... take into account the lower costs (4 games where you are not paying out for stewards, police, heat, light, referees etc) and clubs may actually make more !!!

Other than that, why doesnt he step back and look at alternatives ??? "What can we do to make it exciting ?". OK, we know the big two will likely still be the big two come the end of season so no need to tinker there (unless we make them do an end of season showcase with champions of England on TV?) ... but to help clubs make up for lost games, what might be the problem in taking the 6 other teams in the top 8 and make them play 2 legged playoffs (home and away) to decide European spots in a round-robin format (there's 5 home games straight away) .... and what about taking the bottom 8 and playing off for relegation spots or seedings in next year's cups or something ..... lots to tinker with but there are ways to generate games and if there are consequences or benefits to these games then fans will be interested ..... hell, if I can come up with that at 6-30am while typing, before my first coffee of the day, and without really thinking about it, I am sure there are a thousand other ideas that are better !!!!

One final point to ponder ..... Fans are nothing in this equation. Their views are ignored and this twat speaks down to us like we are a stain on his ill fitting suit or a turd on his leather look shoes .... Its the TV money thats attractive ..... but Mr Doncaster, where does that money come from ??? Yes thats right, it ultimately comes from the fans who subscribe to the channels or buy the products the advertisers on the channel buy airtime for. No fans = no coverage = no league.

Please remember the words of a man whose indelible mark on Scottish football is far greater than the grease spot you will ever leave behind .... In the words of Mr Jock Stein - "Football without the fans is nothing" ....

Go for your TV deals, go for your 10 seats at the table instead of 12, go for ignoring 76% of the teams in Scotland just like you ignore the wishes of 88% of fans ... but once fans tire of the format again (very quickly no doubt), and you are left facing another crisis - of your own short-sighted making - please remember those words of Mr Stein as you reflect on your murder of the most popular sport to ever grace our shores !!!

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  • Neil Doncaster is a website guru who did a rank rotten job at Norwich City
  • Geoff Topping is a bookie promoted to the top of William Hill. That's it.
  • The SPL were wholly responsible for losing the Sky Sports TV money in the first place.
  • They have meddled unsuccessfully with the league, from 10, to 12, and now going for 10 again.
  • Under their management, TV money has fallen, attendances have fallen, debt has sky-rocketed, clubs have folded.
  • The co-efficient rankings of the last two seasons are now on par with Poland and Slovakia.

The SPL story reads like the lovechild of a mole and a bat.

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i dont think it is clear cut and that doncaster has counted his chickens to early we all know that george fraser was against them while the others must have folded but on in the sun yes not the best factual paper in the world but it claims that killie did vote and that michael johnson is admarent that he hasnt changed his mind and now the bbc look to show that it is clear cut i think doncaster has been spinning it to show to keep quiet about dissent

http://www.thesun.co...948/U-Turn.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/scot_prem/9365459.stm

Edited by gingerjaggy
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Yes, Ralph, but to his enemies he's Geoff...dunno why I said Geoff??

Anyway, point being, if we were being led down the garden path by Roxburgh, Will, etc. it'd be strange but a little easier. As it is we're being told what's good for us by people who have no background or experience of the Scottish game. An d they're not giving us any proof of what they are making us do. It's into the abyss, yet again.

Topping and Doncaster will be long gone by the time it has to be cleaned up, as is always the way. Can the fans force a real grassroots change??

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i dont think it is clear cut and that doncaster has counted his chickens to early we all know that george fraser was against them while the others must have folded but on in the sun yes not the best factual paper in the world but it claims that killie did vote and that michael johnson is admarent that he hasnt changed his mind and now the bbc look to show that it is clear cut i think doncaster has been spinning it to show to keep quiet about dissent

http://www.thesun.co...948/U-Turn.html

http://news.bbc.co.u...rem/9365459.stm

Can someone please translate this for me ?

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