Andy Gray, Richard Keys

[Caley Mad In Berks]

This gave me a smile

[SMEE]

Im so hacked off tht andy Gray got the dunt. He was my fave commentator. and he is so spot on with the calls he makes. a very knowledgeable commentator. Its also true about the Loose Women thing....i think its called positive discrimination, which seems to make it ok!

[Scotty]

One the one hand, the incident that started it all seems to be (crass) humour and banter between long-time friends/colleagues which was never intended to be broadcast. I am sure we all make "non-PC" comments to our mates at times which we would not necessarily repeat within other company or at work. In a male dominated sport, it may not be accurate, but it has long been a joke about women and the offside rule, so much so that women joke about it too. The one thing that stands out for me is that no-one seems to have indicated whether the female official was actually offended .... it appears to be yet another case of someone getting offended on behalf of someone else (at least initially) !!!

On the other hand, the incident that caused the suspension, and the subsequent stories about previous comments made by AG show a pattern of behaviour that while maybe not misogyny do portray him as a bit of a chauvinistic dinosaur and also a touch inappropriate and sexist in terms of his behaviour and innuendo towards a female colleague. Perhaps he did need some form of punishment as well as 'sensitivity training' or whatever it is called these days ... or maybe the female presenter was also "one of the lads" joining in with office banter in the same way that Helen Chamberlain always did on Soccer AM ... we simply dont know, and again it seems to be someone else getting offended on her behalf ... it also seems strange that this was rolled out months later to justify or add credence to the sacking.

I cant help going back to the earlier post in the thread dealing with the phone tapping story. I had not heard of it before this (not news this side of the pond) but reading about it, seems very interesting timing so I can see something in this, especially as the sacking was said to have been overseen by the top man at SKY Sports and not just some random executive or manager !!!

I feel that Gray (and Keys) made inappropriate remarks and maybe deserved some sanctions of some kind, but sacking him after nearly 20 years may have been too harsh a punishment. I do not agree with his opinion, but as pointed out, there are talk shows in the UK (loose women) and over this side of the pond (The View) with panels full of misandrists, who are just as bad towards males !!!

And finally .... on the actual subject of female officials ... I say, bring em on !!! The Canadian Championships for the last couple of years have had female officials involved in them not just as assistant referees but also as the referee. Toronto FC have had the same female ref in 3 of their games against Vancouver/Montreal. She was excellent and put many of her male MLS counterparts to shame. I cannot think of any controversy in any of those games yet most MLS games have at least one or two talking points because the refs are so dodgy.

If the ref is competent, gender should not be a factor.

[DingwallAway]

Was gutted to hear Andy got the sack from Sky Sports.

IMO the women should stop interfering with the beautiful game and get back to the kitchen. There's plenty fans around the country need some prawn sandwaiches made.

[TheKnowledge]

Rarely has someone actually loled, when they say lol, but I genuinely loled at this one.

[ilpadrino]

Keys resigns

[Oz647]

I see Rio Ferdinand sticking his nose in. He should shut his gob and get on with his own business. He always has an opinion on things that don't involve him.

[TheKnowledge]

Rio is an ambassador for the Streets. We need his input.

Edited January 26, 2011 by TheKnowledge

[TheKnowledge]

Andy Gray's favourite footballer ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc-K4p8D940&feature=related

[Yngwie]

It's ironic that Sky get all uppity about outdated, sexist attitudes when 5 of the 9 Sky Sports News presenters are young, pretty, blonde females. The most qualified applicants for the job, were they?

Not that I'm complaining.

[PullMyFinger]

While I agree that sacking Andy Gray was a bit ott, I think he should take a long look at himself. Having said that I can't find much to argue with in this article by Giles Coren in the Mail.

Daily Mail

So why is it all right for women to be sexist about MEN?By Giles Coren

26th January 2011

The two Sky Sports presenters who were caught on tape making disparaging remarks about women earlier this week are a pair of daft old duffers, and no mistake. It is important for me to say that first, before I get to the business in hand.

Andy Gray and Richard Keys are a couple of dull, flabby, middle-aged football bores and are just the sort of doddering old clowns you would expect to relax off camera by swapping ancient prejudices and poking fun at women in this case a female linesman for not understanding the offside rule.

You shouldnt pass unflattering remarks about women behind their backs because it is not a well brought-up thing to do, and they needed to be told. I would never do it myself. Not because I am a feminist, but because I am a gentleman.

The real sexists? Gile Coren wonders how the Loose Women can get away with some of the things they say about men

But while Gray has now been sacked, I dont expect that will be the end of the matter.

We will hear an endless shrieking to kick sexism out of football; a PE teacher will be fired for telling his goalkeeper to stop crying like a girl; and a hapless League One manager will be deported for describing a fight between players as handbags at dawn.

There will be the endless apologies, public soul-searching and self-flagellation. And as usual the rest of us men will be expected to atone as a sex for a couple of remarks by two fat, superannuated fools on the telly, and to grovel for forgiveness with every snivel and cringe of our waking lives.

Not that thats anything new. To be a man in this country is constantly to have to apologise for oneself and to be ever so very careful about every sentence we speak or write which contains any reference at all to members of the opposite sex.

More...Richard Keys resigns blaming 'dark forces' at Sky as 'stitched-up' Andy Gray apologises over sexist slur

LIZ JONES MOANS: The God who treats women as shuffling, clueless morons

While at the same time, and this is the shame of it, we ourselves are fair game for women. While sexism from men is the outstanding social crime of the modern world, women can say absolutely whatever they like about us.

For make no mistake: sexism is alive and well in this country and applauded in all quarters as long as it is practised by women. And they are allowed to say the most terrible, terrible things.

Only last week, for example, Jo Brand, the newly crowned Best Female TV Comic at the British Comedy Awards, was on Have I Got News For You and replied to the question Whats your favourite kind of man, Jo? by saying: A dead one. Oh, how the audience fell about. And the other contestants, all male, chortled away too.

Im not saying it wasnt funny. Im just saying we live in a world where the thorough-going awfulness, uselessness and superfluity of the male sex is such a given, that a frontline television comic can get big laughs by saying shed prefer it if we were all dead.

And Im trying to imagine a world in which I am on that show and they say, What kind of women do you like, Giles? and I reply: Dead ones. I just dont think it would get the same laughs, do you?

Heres another of Jo Brands (excellent) gags. Whats the way to a mans heart? Straight through the chest with a kitchen knife! Again, not unfunny. But predicated on the idea that killing men is hilarious. Whereas killing women, as we all know, is a very serious affair and not to be joked about.

Its not just Brand, its all women. What do you call the useless flap of skin attached to a *****? they joke. A man! they all reply, and clink their chardonnay glasses and chortle till dawn. How on earth did this get to be OK?

Ill tell you how. It is because pretty much from birth women are schooled by their mothers to deride men. They are sugar and spice, we are slugs and snails.

They are reflective and sensitive, while we run around kicking balls and shouting. And then as girls push towards puberty their mothers take them aside and tell them: Boys are only after one thing!

The great lie. All men want is sex. Not so. If anything, it is women who think only of having it off. Girls on average lose their ­virginity much younger than boys and have more sexual partners in youth.

As a teenager, I was ­terribly shy about sex and yet girls were trying to do it with me all the time. I used to run, literally run, from their bedrooms when they tried it on. And yet women are allowed endlessly to harangue us with our supposed lechery.

And the prejudice festers. Harriet Harman says that men caused the banking crisis, and the ­harridan legions nod their heads. If women ruled the world, they cry, there would be no wars.

What nonsense. Women are far meaner, more brutal, aggressive, small-minded, jealous, petty and venal than any man.

If women ruled the world ­countries would be invaded because shes always been jealous of my feet and because she looks down on me for going out to work.

Millions would die, torture would increase. If women ruled the world there would be carnage.

And what sort of an insult is it anyway to suggest that most women dont understand the offside rule? Its true, for a start. Most women dont. And most of them declare it proudly.

Most of them use football as an example of one of their favourite gags, the one about how men never grow up, about how were all just children most often manifested in the one where a mother-of-two says Ive got three children, you raise an eyebrow, and she nods towards her husband. Hilarious.

And nor are men, in this female narrative, merely puerile, aggressive and underdeveloped. They are hypochondriacs, too.

Hes got a touch of man flu, say the ­womenfolk and titter. But what nonsense is that? It is women who make a big fuss about mild ­discomfort, not men.

I have never had so much as a cold in my life, nor claimed to. I even suspect sometimes that the whole palaver about the pain of childbirth is a conspiracy to ride roughshod over men.

My own mother, a ­consultant anaesthetist herself, has always claimed that giving birth was a breeze but that she pretended it had been painful to build bargaining chips with my father.

You look at shows like Loose Women and you wonder how on earth they get away with the ­terrible things they say about men. I went on once and it was horrific. I wanted to die.

No male-hosted show could treat women the way those outsized harpies treat men.

I dont especially want to throw my hat in with Dominic Raab, the slightly bonkers Tory MP who has called for an end to legislative ­discrimination against men, but there is no question that women today have it all.

They retire younger and live longer to such an extent that minor inequalities in pay levels are obliterated when you consider whose money pays for those 25 years of retirement. And it just isnt fair that they are allowed to be so vile about us.

I suppose, in a way, British men are like white people were in Nineties South Africa or young Germans after the Second World War.

We are expected to go through a period of atonement for the sins of our fathers. To be treated worse than we merit because of crimes previously committed in our name: in this case the crime of feeding, protecting, loving and nurturing women in accordance with our biological imperative.

They dont want that any more. They want to be linesmen. And so we have to let them tell us endlessly how they wish we were all dead.

If thats not off-side, I dont know what is.

Edited January 27, 2011 by PullMyFinger

[The Long Man]

Oh dear, Giles Coren, what a whiner, honing his highly developed sense of victimhood in where else, the Daily Mail. Completely out of proportion. I doubt Gray and Keys were sacked over a couple of incidents, but a culture they represented and promoted at Sky. You can read about it here, if you wish:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/26/andy-gray-richard-keys-sixist?intcmp=239

[Yngwie]

I hope they replace Keys with the legendary anchorman Ron Burgundy.

[davie]

Bottom line is we've become a nasty po-faced self-righteous bunch of gits in this country, where no-one in the public eye should say anything off-message for fear of being dragged into the public arena and batter silly by the politically correct.

FFS - it's a bit of silly banter between two adults; the apology has been offered and accepted by the lady linesman at the heart of it yet there's still a queue of people desparate to appear on Radio 5 etc, determined to show us how upset they are on someone else's behalf by a few words spoken in jest, in private, between a couple of blokes in a blokey environment and who grew up in an era when it was normal to joke about such things. And joke it was - if anyone imagines that Gray & Keys really do believe that a match official for top line senior professional football doesn't understand offside, they need their skull looking into.

Gaaa. We've reached the point where it's a sacking offence to be a bit blokey. What's going on?

[PullMyFinger]

Oh dear, Giles Coren, what a whiner, honing his highly developed sense of victimhood in where else, the Daily Mail. Completely out of proportion. I doubt Gray and Keys were sacked over a couple of incidents, but a culture they represented and promoted at Sky. You can read about it here, if you wish:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/26/andy-gray-richard-keys-sixist?intcmp=239

Nah, Giles story is far more entertaining and he can spell. sixist?

Schoolboy error.

[old caley girl]

Oh dear, Giles Coren, what a whiner, honing his highly developed sense of victimhood in where else, the Daily Mail. Completely out of proportion. I doubt Gray and Keys were sacked over a couple of incidents, but a culture they represented and promoted at Sky. You can read about it here, if you wish:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/jan/26/andy-gray-richard-keys-sixist?intcmp=239

Totally agree. personally I think this has been going on for yrs at Sky and that someone has got their revenge. If it was just the lineswoman thing it could have been classed as banter but the clip of Andy Grey and the tuck in episode is not banter as the female presenter is not laughing back is she?

[TheKnowledge]

Totally agree. personally I think this has been going on for yrs at Sky and that someone has got their revenge. If it was just the lineswoman thing it could have been classed as banter but the clip of Andy Grey and the tuck in episode is not banter as the female presenter is not laughing back is she?

She didn't like it one bit did she? Perhaps this was a decade or two of 'Banter' building up. Someone wanted them out, and got their way.

[Scotty]

The more I read, the more this sounds like several different agendas/scenarios coming together in an almighty crash ........

1. The powers that be wanted AG out. He works for one company and is suing another but it just so happens that both companies have the same owner. Feathers are exceedingly ruffled !!! The fact that the sacking came from the very top seems to support this.

2. AG and RK are were seen as 'untouchable' at SKY Sports. They have been there since launch and wield a lot of power just by that fact alone. They have trodden on a lot of toes with their behaviour and air of superiority not to mention the development and maintenance of the culture of sexism that exists at the channel. People they have p***** off are now coming forward (anonymously) and adding fuel to the fire. In some cases they probably let it go as they thought (possibly correctly) that these guys were too powerful and nothing would be done, in other cases, it seems to be a case of biding their time and waiting for 'sweet revenge' for some slight of the past.

3. A new boss is in charge and wants to make his mark. How better to do this than take down those who have "got away with it" for a long time and instill 'fear' among the workforce. People will now think "if he can get rid of them then no-one is safe". This is helped by support from the very top as noted in #1.

4. Money !!! Gray is on 1.7m, Keys is probably similarly compensated .... I'll bet the new team will be paid considerably less.

5. Media. This type of scandal fills pages for weeks, especially as the TV network owner also owns newspapers and can have his slant/opinion put on the writings. Gray is now a 'sexist pig' so his credibility in his legal case is diluted.

[Tichy_Blacks_Back]

According to the rumour mill this morning they are on their way out here to Al Jazeera Sports. This has been the basis of a joke doing the rounds since this story broke but who knows it could actually happen. Life mimicking comedy now that would be a change.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Tichy_Blacks_Back

[Yngwie]

You're right about the comedy potential. I'd like to see them move to the Al Jazeera news channel instead, imparting their wisdom on middle eastern politics and the latest jihadist videos. I can just see it.

Keys: And I'm hearing there's been another beheading in Kandahar. Andy, what can you tell us?

Gray: Oh ya beauty! What a strike! Good build up, then suddenly he cut across, and bang, clean as you like. Nothing at all the peacekeeper could do about that one. I think that's Mohammed's 4th of the season. Take a bow, son!

Keys: And who's been causing all the problems for the defence?

Gray: It's the Saudi lad again, Big Osama, who seems to be involved in all the attacks. He's a threat in the air, and they just can't keep up with him either, it looks like he can just run and run. Not only that, but he's behind some well worked set pieces - that last one was straight off the training ground. It's no surprise that he's wanted by some bigger clubs.

Keys: And how long is left?

Gray: By my watch I reckon about...10 years. Plus injury time. And there's been plenty of that, with both sides getting stuck in. That's what I like to see, plenty of blood and guts.

Keys: And what's your view on the match officials?

Gray: Pretty dodgy if you ask me. Far too inexperienced for a contest like this, and it's pretty obvious that there's widespread corruption. But you know what? None of that matters, because at least they're all MEN.

Keys: Thanks Andy, that's the spirit! Right, it's time for a break, but we'll be back right after...Oh, hang on, apparently we won't.

[Dmacca]

Another example of this lop-sided politically correct world we live in at the moment where theres a pressure group for every minority you can think of (do these people not have families work for a living worry how they will pay their bills or just have something more important to think about)

Anyone who watches football would have heard or muttered what the ref is, and his mother, his son, his great granny etc etc, no problem with that, then a lady ref gets some and the bomb is dropped. Come on if its not good for her its not good for no one, slagging the ref should be outlawed, and a public flogging given to anyone caught doing so, although that might be against their human rights so it wont happen.

That gets that off my chest!!

[SMEE]

How many women will be at football matches this weekend.....shouting at and debating the credibility of the Officials. I bet that wont be viewed as sexist!

[The Long Man]

Of course it won't be sexist, you're missing the point entirely.

[Alex MacLeod]

How many women will be at football matches this weekend.....shouting at and debating the credibility of the Officials. I bet that wont be viewed as sexist!

Once they've read and digested this they'll be well qualified to shout and debate

"offside rule" explained for women: You're in a shoe shop, second in the queue for the till. Behind the shop assistant on the till is a pair of shoes which you have seen and which you must have.

The female shopper in front of you has seen them also and is eyeing them with desire. Both of you have forgotten your purses.

It would be rude to push in front of the first woman if you had no money to pay for the shoes.

The shop assistant remains at the till waiting.

Your friend is trying on another pair of shoes at the back of the shop and sees your dilemma.

She prepares to throw her purse to you.

If she does so, you can catch the purse, then walk round the other shopper and buy the shoes!

At a pinch she could throw the purse ahead of the other shopper and "whilst it is in flight" you could nip around the other shopper, catch the purse and buy the shoes!

BUT, you must always remember that until the purse has "actually been thrown", it would be plain wrong for you to be in front of the other shopper and you would be OFFSIDE!

[Scotty]

Alex ... see post #12