Dundee saved

[Alex MacLeod]

for 6p in the pound. Wonder if I could get rid of my debts this way.

[Big G]

If I was a Dundee fan I wouldn't be so confident. As I believe the HMRC and the former management team have refused this offer and have 28 days to launch an appeal. As major creditors HMRC can block this agreement and force liquidation on the club. If Dundee are still a going concern in a months time then they may survive, but they shouldn't count there chickens just yet.

Edited February 8, 2011 by Big G

[12th Man]

These types of stories will become more common if 3 teams are removed from the SPL, not an assumption,its highly likely.

Well, for the ones who want to attempt to get back in again anyway.

[ictchris]

Creditors list:

Aable Roller Shutters Limited, Dundee. ?152.75

Abbey Kings Park Hospital, Stirling. ?70

ADT Fire & Security, Manchester. ?3506.65

Aitken Wines, Dundee. ?333.32

Angus Council, Forfar. ?250

Appletree, Dundee. ?75

Booker, Dundee. ?1946.07

Campbell Medical Supplies, Glasgow. ?1757.02

Clear Tech Water Solutions Ltd, Glasgow. ?1200.82

Concept Group Ltd, West Lothian. ?318.57

Constantine, Coatbridge. ?2115

Costimes With Character Ltd, Heaton Mersey. ?1803.63

C W Electrical, Dundee. ?650.72

Celtic plc, Glasgow. ?4241.28

Car & Van Rental, Haddington. ?1078.66

Dundee Audi, Dundee. ?793.13

DC Lighting, Dundee. ?5477.63

DCM Upholstery, Dundee. ?53.20

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?31,558

Dundee College, Dundee. ?353.20

Dundee City Council Leisure, Dundee. ?1435

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?2838.44

Davidsons Chemists, Blairgowrie. ?308.44

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?1940.40

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?1385.84

EDF Energy 1 Limited, Plymouth. ?2074.34

Electroguard Security Systems, Dundee. ?8349.79

Elliot Group, Peterborough. ?1632.38

Energie Fitness, Dundee. ?20

Fernbrae Hospital, Dundee. ?75.75

Fife Council, Glenrothes. ?273

Fisher Tours, Dundee. ?725

Fleet (Linemarkers) Ltd, Worcestershire. ?634.50

Fresh Approach, By Dundee. ?1446

Allison Gray, Dundee. ?223.20.

Game Ready Global UK Ltd, Berkshire. ?360

A. Gibson, Dundee. ?944.07

Glen Travel, Glasgow. ?164

Graham Environmental, Blairgowrie. ?370.12

GRM Podiatry, Alyth. ?180

G4S Cash Services (UK) Ltd, Sutton. ?2567.37

Haven Power Ltd, Ipswich. ?1679.18

Holly House Hospital, Essex. ?140

Hearts FC, Edinburgh. ?11,597.25

Hilton Hotels, Dundee. ?114.80

Impact (Boston) Ltd, Skegness. ?2871.70

Lloyds TSB Commercial Finance, Glasgow. ?258.50

John Lawrence, Banchory. ?913.50

Libero Consultants, Glasgow. ?15,552.06

Lockshop, Dundee. ?299.42

G. Mackay, Stirling. ?165

Metro Motors, Dundee. ?392.29

McGrigors LLP, Aberdeen. ?1793.34

Murray Taylor. ?9074.54

Nessco Ltd, Westhill, Aberdeenshire. ?2983.01

Olympica Sports Management, France. ?2800

Peco Electrics, Dundee. ?376.22

PHS Group, Caerphilly. ?1450.45

Proactr4, Dundee. ?285

Provan Sports, Paisley. ?1631.66

Quality Inns, Dundee. ?1680.25

Rosshall Hospital, Glasgow. ?301.82

Rough & Fraser, Dundee. ?219.55

RC Stiven, Dundee. ?224.17

Stuart Barton Physiotherapy, Pittenweem. ?435

Scottish Water, Edinburgh. ?3572.88

Scottish Gas, Edinburgh. ?3376.86

Shred It, Cowdenbeath. ?282

Sky, Livingston. ?506.43

Sole To Soul, Dundee. ?162

Staypress Ltd ? John Justice, Dundee. ?374.70

Stellar Football Ltd, London. ?575

St Johnstone FC Ltd, Perth. ?10,001.52

Scottish Ambulance, Edinburgh. ?1827.48

Shell Gas Direct, London. ?797.27

Ticketmaster Systems Ltd, Newcastle-Upon-Lyme. ?6009.96

Tayprint Ltd, Dundee. ?1925.00

Tayside Joint Police Board. ?31,535.99

Thorntons Solicitors, Dundee. ?16,474.49

Transaction Network Services, Sheffield. ?183.30

TNT Post Scotland Ltd, Coatbridge. ?1357.33

Trendell Simpson, Dundee. ?6236.83

University of Dundee, Dundee. ?14,003.13

Upfront Security, Glasgow. ?371.58

Utility Focus, Alyth. ?146.88

Wallace Family Bakers, Dundee. ?306.21

The Yorkshire Clinic, Bingley. ?396.60

HM Revenue & Customs, Worthing. ?461,246

Sandeman Properties Ltd, Dundee. ?925,000

Gordon Chisholm, Glasgow. ?91,313.76

William Dodds, Glasgow. ?77,899.68

Mickael Antoine-Curier, Edinburgh. ?53,914

Scott Fox, Airdrie. ?21,880

Charles Joseph Grant, Hamilton. ?24,951.00

Brian Kerr, Motherwell. ?79,908

Nzaji Kuqi, Colchester. ?46,451

Colin McMenamin, Glasgow. ?27,503

Paul McHale, Stirling. ?26,957

Eric Paton, Glenboig. ?67,102

Dominic Shimmin, Glasgow. ?66,551

Currently Contracted Employees (all c/o Dundee FC, Dens Park Stadium)

Sean Higgins ?17,333.33

Leigh Griffiths ?73,666.66

Stephen O'Donnell ?14,083.33

Kyle Benedictus. ?5,416.66

Craig McKeown ?17,333.33

Robert Douglas ?18,416.66

Gary Irvine ?15,166.66

Rhys Weston ?17,333.33

Gary Harkins ?88,400

Craig Forsyth ?8666.66

Matthew Lockwood ?19,500

Nick Riley, ?13,000

Loan Accounts

R. Brannan, Inverkeithing. ?245,000

C. Melville, Aberdeen. ?1,022,000

J. Bennett, ?200,000

R. Bodie, Dundee. ?20,000

[ictchris]

My favourites from that list

Costimes With Character Ltd, Heaton Mersey. ?1803.63 - mascots are expensive.

University of Dundee, Dundee. ?14,003.13 - if only they'd signed up for the Economics for Dummies course!

Shred It, Cowdenbeath. ?282 - destroy the evidence!

[lukemackay]

Creditors list:

Aable Roller Shutters Limited, Dundee. ?152.75

Abbey Kings Park Hospital, Stirling. ?70

ADT Fire & Security, Manchester. ?3506.65

Aitken Wines, Dundee. ?333.32

Angus Council, Forfar. ?250

Appletree, Dundee. ?75

Booker, Dundee. ?1946.07

Campbell Medical Supplies, Glasgow. ?1757.02

Clear Tech Water Solutions Ltd, Glasgow. ?1200.82

Concept Group Ltd, West Lothian. ?318.57

Constantine, Coatbridge. ?2115

Costimes With Character Ltd, Heaton Mersey. ?1803.63

C W Electrical, Dundee. ?650.72

Celtic plc, Glasgow. ?4241.28

Car & Van Rental, Haddington. ?1078.66

Dundee Audi, Dundee. ?793.13

DC Lighting, Dundee. ?5477.63

DCM Upholstery, Dundee. ?53.20

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?31,558

Dundee College, Dundee. ?353.20

Dundee City Council Leisure, Dundee. ?1435

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?2838.44

Davidsons Chemists, Blairgowrie. ?308.44

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?1940.40

Dundee City Council, Dundee. ?1385.84

EDF Energy 1 Limited, Plymouth. ?2074.34

Electroguard Security Systems, Dundee. ?8349.79

Elliot Group, Peterborough. ?1632.38

Energie Fitness, Dundee. ?20

Fernbrae Hospital, Dundee. ?75.75

Fife Council, Glenrothes. ?273

Fisher Tours, Dundee. ?725

Fleet (Linemarkers) Ltd, Worcestershire. ?634.50

Fresh Approach, By Dundee. ?1446

Allison Gray, Dundee. ?223.20.

Game Ready Global UK Ltd, Berkshire. ?360

A. Gibson, Dundee. ?944.07

Glen Travel, Glasgow. ?164

Graham Environmental, Blairgowrie. ?370.12

GRM Podiatry, Alyth. ?180

G4S Cash Services (UK) Ltd, Sutton. ?2567.37

Haven Power Ltd, Ipswich. ?1679.18

Holly House Hospital, Essex. ?140

Hearts FC, Edinburgh. ?11,597.25

Hilton Hotels, Dundee. ?114.80

Impact (Boston) Ltd, Skegness. ?2871.70

Lloyds TSB Commercial Finance, Glasgow. ?258.50

John Lawrence, Banchory. ?913.50

Libero Consultants, Glasgow. ?15,552.06

Lockshop, Dundee. ?299.42

G. Mackay, Stirling. ?165

Metro Motors, Dundee. ?392.29

McGrigors LLP, Aberdeen. ?1793.34

Murray Taylor. ?9074.54

Nessco Ltd, Westhill, Aberdeenshire. ?2983.01

Olympica Sports Management, France. ?2800

Peco Electrics, Dundee. ?376.22

PHS Group, Caerphilly. ?1450.45

Proactr4, Dundee. ?285

Provan Sports, Paisley. ?1631.66

Quality Inns, Dundee. ?1680.25

Rosshall Hospital, Glasgow. ?301.82

Rough & Fraser, Dundee. ?219.55

RC Stiven, Dundee. ?224.17

Stuart Barton Physiotherapy, Pittenweem. ?435

Scottish Water, Edinburgh. ?3572.88

Scottish Gas, Edinburgh. ?3376.86

Shred It, Cowdenbeath. ?282

Sky, Livingston. ?506.43

Sole To Soul, Dundee. ?162

Staypress Ltd ? John Justice, Dundee. ?374.70

Stellar Football Ltd, London. ?575

St Johnstone FC Ltd, Perth. ?10,001.52

Scottish Ambulance, Edinburgh. ?1827.48

Shell Gas Direct, London. ?797.27

Ticketmaster Systems Ltd, Newcastle-Upon-Lyme. ?6009.96

Tayprint Ltd, Dundee. ?1925.00

Tayside Joint Police Board. ?31,535.99

Thorntons Solicitors, Dundee. ?16,474.49

Transaction Network Services, Sheffield. ?183.30

TNT Post Scotland Ltd, Coatbridge. ?1357.33

Trendell Simpson, Dundee. ?6236.83

University of Dundee, Dundee. ?14,003.13

Upfront Security, Glasgow. ?371.58

Utility Focus, Alyth. ?146.88

Wallace Family Bakers, Dundee. ?306.21

The Yorkshire Clinic, Bingley. ?396.60

HM Revenue & Customs, Worthing. ?461,246

Sandeman Properties Ltd, Dundee. ?925,000

Gordon Chisholm, Glasgow. ?91,313.76

William Dodds, Glasgow. ?77,899.68

Mickael Antoine-Curier, Edinburgh. ?53,914

Scott Fox, Airdrie. ?21,880

Charles Joseph Grant, Hamilton. ?24,951.00

Brian Kerr, Motherwell. ?79,908

Nzaji Kuqi, Colchester. ?46,451

Colin McMenamin, Glasgow. ?27,503

Paul McHale, Stirling. ?26,957

Eric Paton, Glenboig. ?67,102

Dominic Shimmin, Glasgow. ?66,551

Currently Contracted Employees (all c/o Dundee FC, Dens Park Stadium)

Sean Higgins ?17,333.33

Leigh Griffiths ?73,666.66

Stephen O'Donnell ?14,083.33

Kyle Benedictus. ?5,416.66

Craig McKeown ?17,333.33

Robert Douglas ?18,416.66

Gary Irvine ?15,166.66

Rhys Weston ?17,333.33

Gary Harkins ?88,400

Craig Forsyth ?8666.66

Matthew Lockwood ?19,500

Nick Riley, ?13,000

Loan Accounts

R. Brannan, Inverkeithing. ?245,000

C. Melville, Aberdeen. ?1,022,000

J. Bennett, ?200,000

R. Bodie, Dundee. ?20,000

[CaleyD]

What I find most staggering is the shear number of people they owed money too.....89Companies, 24 Players/Staff and the 4 "loan" accounts = Total of 117

It's also blatantly obvious that Dundee played the system to get the CVA pushed through, but that may yet come back to bite them if the HMRC pursue a case.

It also seems that 2 fingers were given to the 25 point deduction as Dundee have kept players on the books they could not afford and that the club has continued to run on a loss making basis throughout the administration - the "pot" of money they have to pay the creditors is smaller now than when they went into administration - had they cut their cloth in accordance with the position they were in then I very much doubt they would have remained as competitive as they have and they would have had more money to pay the creditors.....the whole thing stinks.

What's annoyed me most in all this and still annoys me is the number of Dundee fans who continue to behave as if Dundee are the victims, being made even worse now by the ones who see the CVA as some kind of victory.

[Heilandee]

What I find most staggering is the shear number of people they owed money too.....89Companies, 24 Players/Staff and the 4 "loan" accounts = Total of 117

It's also blatantly obvious that Dundee played the system to get the CVA pushed through, but that may yet come back to bite them if the HMRC pursue a case.

It also seems that 2 fingers were given to the 25 point deduction as Dundee have kept players on the books they could not afford and that the club has continued to run on a loss making basis throughout the administration - the "pot" of money they have to pay the creditors is smaller now than when they went into administration - had they cut their cloth in accordance with the position they were in then I very much doubt they would have remained as competitive as they have and they would have had more money to pay the creditors.....the whole thing stinks.

What's annoyed me most in all this and still annoys me is the number of Dundee fans who continue to behave as if Dundee are the victims, being made even worse now by the ones who see the CVA as some kind of victory.

First and foremost,you'll get no argument here that the list is shameful and most supporters i know are outraged that this debacle has occurred again,i don't know many who see the CVA as a victory but sure, it's a massive relief it went through.

You seem surprised at the number of creditors,for a business the size of Dundee Football Club i don't see it as surprising at all, and whilst in no way trivialising any debts,more than 50% are under ?1000,I'm sure most clubs have list of creditors similar or worse at any given time, the CVA i was involved in as creditor was a far smaller company and had 58 business creditors.

Not sure where you get the idea 2 fingers was given to the 25 point deduction,the playing squad currently down to 10 first team signed players, is a massively depleted version of the squad who were getting beaten (with no disrespect ) in August,from Brechin and Stenhousemuir under the previous management partnership,no one could have foreseen the resilience and determination Barry Smith and Rab Douglas would instill in the squad and with inspired trialists (FFS bringing on a 36 year old striker who hadn't kicked a ball in anger for 3 years!!) to score the winning goal against the league leaders is Roy of the Rovers stuff.Had we "taken our punishment" and laid down, still many points adrift at the bottom i suspect much of the morale outrage and indignation at our "cheating" coming out just now would not be so venomous.

The current running and financing of the process is in the hands of the much respected Bryan Jackson,who, i would guess, is best placed to see the whole picture and i'm sure got the best deal possible under the circumstances,for the creditors whilst ensuring viability of the club as a business going forward.

I dont view us in any way as victims, and we certainly deserved a sterner punishment than previously for entering administration for a second time,but what i do disagree with is the judge and jury being a group of people who have an obvious vested interest in the outcome and can make up punishments as they see fit.

Now that stinks!

[TheKnowledge]

Creditors list:

Abbey Kings Park Hospital, Stirling. ?70

Campbell Medical Supplies, Glasgow. ?1757.02

Dundee College, Dundee. ?353.20

Holly House Hospital, Essex. ?140

Rosshall Hospital, Glasgow. ?301.82

Scottish Ambulance, Edinburgh. ?1827.48

Leigh Griffiths ?73,666.66

They have no heart.

[CaleyD]

First and foremost,you'll get no argument here that the list is shameful and most supporters i know are outraged that this debacle has occurred again,i don't know many who see the CVA as a victory but sure, it's a massive relief it went through.

You seem surprised at the number of creditors,for a business the size of Dundee Football Club i don't see it as surprising at all, and whilst in no way trivialising any debts,more than 50% are under ?1000,I'm sure most clubs have list of creditors similar or worse at any given time, the CVA i was involved in as creditor was a far smaller company and had 58 business creditors.

I kinda got the impression when Dundee went into Administration that they (Dundee FC) felt it was unnecessary and forced upon them by HMRC...in other words, they felt they had the debt under control. If that was the case then I wouldn't have expected to see so many of the smaller debts and it only serves as a sign that things were far more desperate than they made out. Granted, we don't know how old these debts are or how long they have been running....many could be 30 day credit agreements from suppliers, but if they are then it indicates that even with administration pending they were continuing to run up debt.

Not sure where you get the idea 2 fingers was given to the 25 point deduction,the playing squad currently down to 10 first team signed players, is a massively depleted version of the squad who were getting beaten (with no disrespect ) in August,from Brechin and Stenhousemuir under the previous management partnership,no one could have foreseen the resilience and determination Barry Smith and Rab Douglas would instill in the squad and with inspired trialists (FFS bringing on a 36 year old striker who hadn't kicked a ball in anger for 3 years!!) to score the winning goal against the league leaders is Roy of the Rovers stuff.Had we "taken our punishment" and laid down, still many points adrift at the bottom i suspect much of the morale outrage and indignation at our "cheating" coming out just now would not be so venomous.

The current running and financing of the process is in the hands of the much respected Bryan Jackson,who, i would guess, is best placed to see the whole picture and i'm sure got the best deal possible under the circumstances,for the creditors whilst ensuring viability of the club as a business going forward.

Sorry, but I don't care who the administrator was or how well respected he might be, but if you are overseeing a business that is in administration then continuing to run it at a loss is not ensuring that creditors are going to get the best possible deal. What's more, I fail to see how running at a loss can be considered "ensuring viability".

I think you are partially correct about how others might have reacted if you had "taken your punishment". The victim mentality that has emanated from Dens Park since day one has done the club few favours. For me, what's done most harm is that more could/should have been done by Dundee FC to ensure creditors were better treated. Doesn't matter how many players you cut from the squad or how you skirted the transfer embargo to bring in trialists...the fact is their was room for further cuts, and cuts that would not only have brought the club into break even but might have actually seen it make a few quid....money that could have gone to the people who were due more than 6p in the pound. What's more, the footballers would have been guaranteed their money at some point under the league rules in regards to paying footballing debt. Instead, Dundee FC have effectively held these players and paid them from the pot that should have been earmarked for the creditors. They got into the mess they are in by putting performance on the park ahead of business performance, learned nothing, and continued to do the same whilst in administration....instead of paying what they couldn't afford to win the league, they have been paying what they couldn't afford to avoid relegation.....that's giving the 2 fingers to the 25 point deduction as far as I am concerned.

I dont view us in any way as victims, and we certainly deserved a sterner punishment than previously for entering administration for a second time,but what i do disagree with is the judge and jury being a group of people who have an obvious vested interest in the outcome and can make up punishments as they see fit.

Now that stinks!

We've had this discussion before, Dundee FC were signed up to the rules as a member of the SFL/SFA and made little or no moves to change the situation prior to going into administration so don't have much room for complaint when they are held to account by it. Now that it looks like you are coming out the other side, it will be interesting to see if you continue to fight for a change to the system.

If I'm honest, it's probably the fact that there's few signs that lessons were learned the first time round, and even fewer are being learned/taken on board this time round. Performance on the pitch continues to be put ahead of all else and even throughout administration this has been to the cost of others. The fact that other clubs will have witnessed it all and seen Dundee FC come out the other side with barely a scratch does little to deter them from doing the same....in fact, being able to wipe out the vast majority of your debt whilst maintaining a competitive squad and overcoming a 25 point deficit could almost be seen as encouragement for others to continue taking the risks they do with the finances.

[Heilandee]

Cannae get the hang of the multi quote thing!! but .....

"Sorry, but I don't care who the administrator was or how well respected he might be, but if you are overseeing a business that is in administration then continuing to run it at a loss is not ensuring that creditors are going to get the best possible deal. What's more, I fail to see how running at a loss can be considered "ensuring viability".

the fact is their was room for further cuts, and cuts that would not only have brought the club into break even but might have actually seen it make a few quid....money that could have gone to the people who were due more than 6p in the pound. What's more, the footballers would have been guaranteed their money at some point under the league rules in regards to paying footballing debt. Instead, Dundee FC have effectively held these players and paid them from the pot that should have been earmarked for the creditors. They got into the mess they are in by putting performance on the park ahead of business performance, learned nothing, and continued to do the same whilst in administration....instead of paying what they couldn't afford to win the league, they have been paying what they couldn't afford to avoid relegation.....that's giving the 2 fingers to the 25 point deduction as far as I am concerned."

Not sure how much of that is fact and whats speculation,the administrator as i understand it is duty bound to get the best deal as he sees it for the creditors,we all know football is results driven and had we not been able to compete,it would have become obvious fairly quickly there was no chance of survival, crowds would have plummeted ,thus revenue,and any chance of recovery pretty much gone, which,with reconstruction on the horizon could have been terminal and may still be, but now we have a fighting chance and crowds are growing each week.

Stirling i'm sure will reap a decent payday next Saturday on the back of our current run, not to mention many Dundee publicans who would have had a field day/night last Saturday,i'm pretty sure they are pleased the CVA went through and Saturday trade from the football with the thousands of pounds it generates weekly,will now continue, Also, many companies will now continue to trade, (on fairly strict terms i'm sure) which would also have disappeared.

As i understand it the "football debt" is still to be covered in full and is treated differently from other creditors,which i'm not altogether comfortable with, although i'm a bit vague on this and i'm open to correction if you know for sure, many on P&B and other forums seem to be well versed all aspects of company administration just now.

"I dont view us in any way as victims, and we certainly deserved a sterner punishment than previously for entering administration for a second time,but what i do disagree with is the judge and jury being a group of people who have an obvious vested interest in the outcome and can make up punishments as they see fit.

Now that stinks!"

"We've had this discussion before, Dundee FC were signed up to the rules as a member of the SFL/SFA and made little or no moves to change the situation prior to going into administration so don't have much room for complaint when they are held to account by it. Now that it looks like you are coming out the other side, it will be interesting to see if you continue to fight for a change to the system.

If I'm honest, it's probably the fact that there's few signs that lessons were learned the first time round, and even fewer are being learned/taken on board this time round. Performance on the pitch continues to be put ahead of all else and even throughout administration this has been to the cost of others. The fact that other clubs will have witnessed it all and seen Dundee FC come out the other side with barely a scratch does little to deter them from doing the same....in fact, being able to wipe out the vast majority of your debt whilst maintaining a competitive squad and overcoming a 25 point deficit could almost be seen as encouragement for others to continue taking the risks they do with the finances."

And we'll probably still be having it for years to come,as long as those making decisions are from competing clubs,surely an independent body is required for resolving these annual debacles,whether administration,promotion or other irregularities that crop up

[Johnboy]

Sorry, but I don't care who the administrator was or how well respected he might be, but if you are overseeing a business that is in administration then continuing to run it at a loss is not ensuring that creditors are going to get the best possible deal. What's more, I fail to see how running at a loss can be considered "ensuring viability".

I've got a bank manager who sounds exactly like you.

[Johnboy]

Cannae get the hang of the multi quote thing!! but .....

Yeah..... We can see that, H/Dee....

[ictchris]

You seem surprised at the number of creditors,for a business the size of Dundee Football Club i don't see it as surprising at all, and whilst in no way trivialising any debts,more than 50% are under ?1000,I'm sure most clubs have list of creditors similar or worse at any given time, the CVA i was involved in as creditor was a far smaller company and had 58 business creditors.

It's small unpaid debts that do in small companies. Other clubs probably have lists of creditors but the difference is they pay them.

It's not quite as bad as Gretna's final list, which showed that they owed Sky Sports ?23.

[Alex MacLeod]

Regardless of how we all feel about the Dundee situation can I just point out that the job of the Administrator is to ensure that a business, be it football or any other, can continue to meet its commitments and to keep the business running whilst finding ways of sorting out the dety. A debt that would have been frozen at the point of registering Administration. All they done was well within business law.

That aside I must say that Dundee are very lucky that they have had two different owners for each term of Administration. Had it been the same owner for both then he or she would be banned from running a business for a period. And that would likely have seen the total demise of Dundee FC.

The club have been penalised and they may well struggle to get service from all or many of those who have lost out so they could actually still struggle meet their day to day committments but if they haven't learned this time then I think all sympathy will be lost and they will disappear from the Scottish Professional League structure.

[CaleyD]

Not sure how much of that is fact and whats speculation,the administrator as i understand it is duty bound to get the best deal as he sees it for the creditors,we all know football is results driven and had we not been able to compete,it would have become obvious fairly quickly there was no chance of survival, crowds would have plummeted ,thus revenue,and any chance of recovery pretty much gone, which,with reconstruction on the horizon could have been terminal and may still be, but now we have a fighting chance and crowds are growing each week.

Stirling i'm sure will reap a decent payday next Saturday on the back of our current run, not to mention many Dundee publicans who would have had a field day/night last Saturday,i'm pretty sure they are pleased the CVA went through and Saturday trade from the football with the thousands of pounds it generates weekly,will now continue, Also, many companies will now continue to trade, (on fairly strict terms i'm sure) which would also have disappeared.

As i understand it the "football debt" is still to be covered in full and is treated differently from other creditors,which i'm not altogether comfortable with, although i'm a bit vague on this and i'm open to correction if you know for sure, many on P&B and other forums seem to be well versed all aspects of company administration just now.

I'd have to go do some digging to get the source of the figures, but from memory Dundee had a low 6 figure sum of cash on hand when they went in to administration. That has totally gone and the only money they now have on hand to pay creditors is the £150k (or thereabouts) that they will get from the Supporters Association. As all debt is frozen at the time of entering administration and only day to day running costs/wages (including administrator costs) need to be met then that cash in hand has to have gone somewhere....certain day to day costs are unavoidable and if the money coming in can't meet them then the business is not viable. The only place it could have gone is player wages, an area where further cuts could have been made, but weren't. In other words, that cash in hand has been used to subsidise players the club could not afford within it's day to day budget.

Spending more than you can afford to "remain competitive" is not an excuse and is exactly what got Dundee into problems in the first place. Then, to add insult to injury, the first statement that comes from the club after the announcement on the CVA is "We hope this lifts the transfer embargo"....yeah, great idea...you couldn't afford the squad you had before, you couldn't afford the squad you had during administration, so now the administrator is packing up his suitcase you want to bring in more players you can't afford. A sure sign lessons are being learned.....NOT!!!

And we'll probably still be having it for years to come,as long as those making decisions are from competing clubs,surely an independent body is required for resolving these annual debacles,whether administration,promotion or other irregularities that crop up

Whilst I don't think the current regime is the best I can't see any club voting for a change...even Dundee.

In any other industry a business would find itself struck off from any related professional body for such a serious indiscretion (certainly would be for two in 7 years). Whilst Dundee may have claimed throughout this whole thing that the "vested interest" was used against them, I'm actually of the opinion that it is perhaps what saved them. I doubt I would be far off the mark in suggesting that every club in Scotland is one poor (financial) season or less from administration, and with so many other clubs teetering on the edge then none of them were/are going to set a precedent of expulsion or automatic relegation because they know they could easily be the next ones in the dock.

They have to be seen to do something, but as I highlighted previously the 25 point deduction and transfer embargo served as no real punishment and, if anything, probably encouraged Dundee to continue spending a bit more on players during administration than they could really afford....in short, it would actually appear to have been counter productive in terms of teaching anyone a lesson or serving as a deterrent to others.

[Alex MacLeod]

Like many other teams, CD, Dundee were hit by the weather. I would presume that money was needed to tide them through periods of no income.

[CaleyD]

I believe Dundee only had one home match postponed (away matches don't generate income, and actually save a club money short term on travel etc) and that game has since been played so they will have had the income from that already.

Plus they've had money in from the sale of Griffiths and the TV Money from the Cup Game v Motherwell which seems to have just vanished or been magically squirrelled away somewhere (about ?250k in total).

I've also read that they could come a cropper as a result of the Sandeman debt which was included for the CVA. The ?925,000 there apparently represents the clubs next 32 years rent...so it's not actually debt accrued at this moment in time. This would mean that Sandeman Properties would get 6p in the ? for a debt that doesn't yet exist and then be free to negotiate a new agreement with the club...if that agreement is set at the same rate as present they have effectively achieved a 6% profit from Dundee's administration.....probably a small price for Dundee to pay in return for a guaranteed yes vote on the CVA from one of the biggest creditors.

[Heilandee]

I believe Dundee only had one home match postponed (away matches don't generate income, and actually save a club money short term on travel etc) and that game has since been played so they will have had the income from that already.

Your quite right D,we were fortunate regarding few call offs due in no small part to the desperate efforts of supporters clearing snow and ice at 2 games to ensure they went ahead

Plus they've had money in from the sale of Griffiths and the TV Money from the Cup Game v Motherwell which seems to have just vanished or been magically squirrelled away somewhere (about ?250k in total).

Apparently this is going toward "footballing debt" as they are counted differently to other creditors.

I am not proud of the creditors list and as mentioned, know exactly how it feels to be shafted for outstanding debt via a CVA, but hopefully Bryan Jackson along with others will have ensured all dealings are done within the regulations ( whether you think these are moral or not is a different issue) I do agree with Alex that this really is the last throw of the dice though and any future financial wrongdoing will certainly see the end of Dundee Football Club

This guy makes some valid points ,but again much is speculation and info gleaned from forums and newspaper gossip,it never fails to amaze me how many legal and financial experts spend much of their time on footy forums!!

http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=10999

Edited February 16, 2011 by Heilandee

[CaleyD]

I accept that clubs can (and do) ring-fence funds coming from external sources for things like the footballing debt and giving the business a boost post administration, but I think Dundee could find themselves on a very sticky wicket when it comes to setting aside money that the business itself has produced....time will tell whether or not it is allowed, but you can be sure that if it was an individual who was facing bankruptcy then the system doesn't allow them ANY control over their spare income, certainly not in terms of picking and choosing who they pay and who they don't. It also wouldn't allow them to pay off their mortgage to the tune of 6p in the ? and remain in the property, which is what seems to be the case with the Sandeman "debt".

Hadn't read the 200% piece until today and have to say I find articles like that a little unfortunate. As you say, some valid points raised by the author, but I think he ties himself up a little and loses the point/impact of the article by allowing it to become long winded...which inevitably leaves it open to some inaccuracies and gives people an easy excuse to dismiss everything he says as a result. It's one thing to discuss and debate these things on a forum, quite another to take a position of authority and set them out there in an article or statement.

Not sure you can so easily separate the legal and moral arguments either. I know I could never support something which went against my morals, no matter how legal they are/were....and I think my many protestations in regards the actions of ICT on certain matters over the years stands as testament to that. The reverse of that being that I could probably be more accepting of an illegal action if it was done for moral reasons.

It's perhaps taking it a bit far to suggest the administrators at Dundee have done anything "illegal" as everything is out there to be seen by those who need to see it, probably fairer to look at it from the point of them testing the limits and seeing how much they can get away with. Whether or not that turns out to be acceptable in the eyes of the law and legislation isn't much of a factor in my thinking, I'm more concerned that their actions are simply serving to demonstrate to others how the system can be worked and, what should be considered suicidal financial risk. isn't actually all that risky when you can just write of millions of debt and continue as normal when it all goes wrong.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of saint and I can push my luck and test the limits with the best of them, but I like to think that my actions are guided by a fairly sensible moral compass and that I would draw the line at doing anything which would have any far reaching consequences for people other than myself.....but then again, people might just think I'm full of shit!!!

[Oddquine]

I accept that clubs can (and do) ring-fence funds coming from external sources for things like the footballing debt and giving the business a boost post administration, but I think Dundee could find themselves on a very sticky wicket when it comes to setting aside money that the business itself has produced....time will tell whether or not it is allowed, but you can be sure that if it was an individual who was facing bankruptcy then the system doesn't allow them ANY control over their spare income, certainly not in terms of picking and choosing who they pay and who they don't. It also wouldn't allow them to pay off their mortgage to the tune of 6p in the £ and remain in the property, which is what seems to be the case with the Sandeman "debt".

Hadn't read the 200% piece until today and have to say I find articles like that a little unfortunate. As you say, some valid points raised by the author, but I think he ties himself up a little and loses the point/impact of the article by allowing it to become long winded...which inevitably leaves it open to some inaccuracies and gives people an easy excuse to dismiss everything he says as a result. It's one thing to discuss and debate these things on a forum, quite another to take a position of authority and set them out there in an article or statement.

Not sure you can so easily separate the legal and moral arguments either. I know I could never support something which went against my morals, no matter how legal they are/were....and I think my many protestations in regards the actions of ICT on certain matters over the years stands as testament to that. The reverse of that being that I could probably be more accepting of an illegal action if it was done for moral reasons.

It's perhaps taking it a bit far to suggest the administrators at Dundee have done anything "illegal" as everything is out there to be seen by those who need to see it, probably fairer to look at it from the point of them testing the limits and seeing how much they can get away with. Whether or not that turns out to be acceptable in the eyes of the law and legislation isn't much of a factor in my thinking, I'm more concerned that their actions are simply serving to demonstrate to others how the system can be worked and, what should be considered suicidal financial risk. isn't actually all that risky when you can just write of millions of debt and continue as normal when it all goes wrong.

I'm not claiming to be any kind of saint and I can push my luck and test the limits with the best of them, but I like to think that my actions are guided by a fairly sensible moral compass and that I would draw the line at doing anything which would have any far reaching consequences for people other than myself.....but then again, people might just think I'm full of ****!!!

I'm one who doesn't think you are full of sh1t, CaleyD...as you might notice from some of your post reps. I am very much of the same opinion as you.

It seems to me that the Dundee fans have the same arrogant mindset as our banking institutions have had ... ie...."we are too big and important to fail" ....so we don't have to do the moral thing.just the thing which ensures we can still exist and profit. So bankers pushed the envelope well past the level which is acceptable to the average citizen, if not the Government.......just as Dundee FC has pushed it past what is acceptable to the average football punter if not the SFA.. Nothing to do, really, as to rivalry.......just as to what is right, fair and equitable as perceived by those who have been there....and those who may well be there in the future. The only teams who have been there are Livingston and Gretna...everybody else has not yet achieved the status of living well outside their means....TWICE.......and are prepared to accept the same sanctions as Dundee FC if they were so monumentally stupid to do so in their future..

As an ICT supporter, though admittedly not one who injects much into the ICT income due to distance from Inverness, I would be sickened past redemption if ICT were to trash the incomes of 116 other individual people/companies (ignoring the government HMRC) to ensure ICT survived at the expense of 116 other entities with employees to be maintained.....because they have no other thought but as to how little they can get off with paying to creditors in order to ensure ICT's existence .....and the consequences to the employees of the 116 creditor comanies is nothing to do with them.

Sure, there is a difference between illegal and moral......but is it not a sign of our times that there is a difference between illegal and immoral?

Edited February 17, 2011 by Oddquine

[Heilandee]

I like to think my moral compass is as finely tuned as the next mans (or quines) but to suggest Dundee FC "trashed the incomes" of companies to survive is nonsense.Yes, the board once again gambled recklessly, but the culprits are long gone as the legal system does not hold them accountable and I'm not sure being morally outraged and refusing to support those left in a fit of indignation would benifit the existing creditors or current employees at the club,not to mention the many businesses who still benefit financially from there being a successful (or at least surviving) DundeeFC.(I would have left for good had De Stefanno been appointed!!)

Your memory seems a little selective in who's been there,was the Clydebank take over by the liquidated Airdrie FC who reformed under the same directors as Airdrie United not far more morally reprehensible? Motherwell have also been there in the recent past and have risen back to the dizzy heights of euro football in Wales not to mention the 55 clubs in English top flight football who have been through the administration process.......

Clubs been through administration

sadly there are also scores of companies going into administration on a weekly basis

current admin listings