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Stewarding issues


davie

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This is the main problem, we're not allowed to stand.

Or rather WE are not allowed to stand. On the matchday report thread there's a link from CapitalCaley to the St Mirren board.

The reason we aren't allowed to stand appears to be because there aren't enough of us standing...

So the simple solution is actually to take 2000 fans and then we can do whatever we like.

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Sounds like another ridiculous situation and after reading the St Mirren board and the reasons bigger supports are allowed to stand it simply proves that a two tier system is in place. Surely if the a club is incapable of controlling that number of fans as per the requirements of their safety certificate, i.e. the larger supports of the Old Firm, then they shouldn't be able to host these matches?

The percentage of ejections at Caley, Killie, Hamilton, whoever matches must be astronomical in comparison. It is totally ridiculous and yet another reason fans choose to stay away from football grounds. What other business could you charge ?25 for a product of indeterminate quality, treat customers as an inconvenience, behave rudely and aggressively to them and still have the audacity to maintain it is in their interests?

Hibs away... Yet to decide whether to go. Maybe I'll go and see what happens, if it's the same then I'll not bother again.

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We all know that standing is a SPl guidline, we just want it to be the same for everyone. Until the day everyone is treated the same, there will be problems. Just allow standing back, shimples!

This is the main problem, we're not allowed to stand. Does it not go back to the Taylor report and Hillsborough? I think it's like our laws on Marley's special herb where, depending on the officer who catches you (and what music their into), you will get treated differently, even though it's against the rules all the same. My mate told me this, I wouldn't know for sure though.....

As I've pointed out numerous times, "you must sit" is an SPL directive, not law. You just have to go to Murrayfield for a Rugby Match or to a stadium concert to see thousands of people standing without issue and you don't see people there being harassed and huckled out of the ground by the stewards. The law states that any stadium with a capacity greater than 10,000 should be all seated and that anyone admitted to the stadium must receive a ticket for an allocated seat, it says nothing about you having to remain seated.

The Taylor Report recommended all seater stadiums as a means of controlling numbers in stadiums and preventing crowd rushes/surges. It was not designed to stop people from enjoying the game.

The problem is, getting into a tussle with the Stewards is not going to change anything. It's the SPL that need to alter or scrap their "You must sit" policies. Clubs are quick to hide behind the "SPL Rules, Sorry" line, but ultimately they are the ones with the power to change/scrap the SPL rules...not the stewards or police. It is the clubs that we should be putting pressure on to have things changed, not just at their own grounds but across the entire league.

Boycotting games is pointless unless you first make a proper case for what you want and why you are doing it, and even then, you have to make sure you are boycotting clubs who are not in support of your proposals. It could easily be that whilst we may not have the same level of issue with our own stewards, the club itself supports the SPL rules on sitting down...whilst St Mirren could be against the SPL rules on sitting but have a match commander who applies them to the letter.

I think people have a fair point about how they are treated etc, but I also find it a bit cringworthy when I see/hear how they handle themselves when they get in to a situation. Teenagers who are pissed up to the eyeballs getting into the face of Stewards and, on occasion, deliberately setting out to wind them up doesn't do anyone any favours and gives them an easy excuse to dismiss any complaint. What's more, when it's the same people who seem to be in the thick of it time and again then, rightly or wrongly, you get yourself the label of being a troublemaker and again, give them an easy excuse to dismiss any complaint.

Not saying fans have to accept the situation, but they do need to be a bit smarter in how they handle things.

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Who are the SPL? They are the directors of every member club of that league. These are the people who need to be lobbyed to make change. Maybe the time has come to start that lobbying. Maybe the time has come for all fans of all clubs to get together and show protest at a rule that only applies in one league in Scotland. Greater stadiums with greater crowds do not have these problems.

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It has become beyond a joke and the over aggressive stewarding only creates problems and raises tensions. <clipped>

Not once in the many games I have been to abraod are the stewards like this, they keep out of the way and let the fans enjoy themsleves and I guess only get involved if there is serious trouble.

Toronto FC (and MLS) allows standing in "designated supporters sections". Basically for TFC that's the whole of the South Stand, 1 section in the main stand, and as of this year the North Stand as well (not sure if its all or just part). They also turn a bit of a blind eye to standing in sections of the main stand and east stand adjoining the defined supporters sections. Other sections (normal seats) have a no standing policy that is enforced. I have had a seat in the South Stand for each of the last 4 seasons and will be there again for Season 5 ..... In all 5 seasons, I dont think I have actually sat in my seat for more than a few minutes at half-time in most games !!!

In general, the stewards at BMO Field are excellent. Dont get me wrong, there have been issues, usually with supporters from other sections trying to get into the supporters sections because of the raucous reputation that TFC fans in those sections have, but representatives of the supporters groups regularly talk to the club and get them ironed out. The club do also let the supporters groups have a degree of self-policing authority and it works ....

Seems like TFC have 3 levels of stewarding. Level 1 is "Guest Services" which is who most of us see at every game. They direct folk to their seats, help those who might not know where their seats are, and generally make sure that while allowed to stand you are not misbehaving or standing on top of the seats etc. they exert a bit of control, but their role seems to be more of an 'assistance' function. Its usually the same guest services people at your section for every game and you develop a rapport with them that allows both sides to behave normally towards each other .... Level 2 is "security" and they are the ones that come in and talk to people or drag them out if needed. I guess 'guest services' call in these guys as and when they need to and although I have seen them be heavy handed at times, its usually because someone deserves it. Level 3 - which is one you dont want to encounter - is the cops. They come in, grab you, and take you to jail, no questions asked. Security call them in, or sometimes they wade in themselves if something is thrown or there is a fight etc. Cops over here carry guns and Tasers so you dont argue !

It seems to me that Scottish football has forgotten about "Level 1" stewarding and moved directly to "Level 2". Good stewards do not need to be ****holes, good stewards can hold a conversation with you on the same level and achieve a far more consistent and better result for all concerned. Not sure about boycotts but as fans we should be protesting the erosion of our "matchday experience". How you are treated while watching the game is just as important a factor in deciding to go to a match for some people as the actual game itself.

The last game I went to at the TCS was an eye opener for me. I posted it here at the time, but the atmosphere was the flattest I have ever experienced. People around me who I had been coming to games with for years before I emigrated, and who were once quite vocal in their support of the team, and jovial slagging of the opposition, were quite literally now sitting on their hands, scared to make any wrong move for fear of ejection or being on the receiving end of an FBO. That is not enjoyment ... that becomes a chore, and chores are something you eventually find a way to get out of !

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I wonder if away fans to TCS get treated in the same way as us in other stadiums? have to say our visit to Fir park last month brought no hassle from stewards whatsoever, the noisyboys stood the whole match and enjoyed therselves, only Dewsbury was winding them up - by trying to take there pics.

Sure looks like different rules to suit what the (bar)stewards can get away with.

Edited by caley100
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I wonder if away fans to TCS get treated in the same way as us in other stadiums? have to say our visit to Fir park last month brought no hassle from stewards whatsoever, the noisyboys stood the whole match and enjoyed therselves, only Dewsbury was winding them up - by trying to take there pics.

Sure looks like different rules to suit what the (bar)stewards can get away with.

Caley100, I've never had any bother from stewards whilst in the away end at TCS, even when pretty boisterous,but have had grief in the home end where they seem to be overly officious with the ICT support

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Speaking to someone who knows about these things, it appears the best person to complain to is Brian Caldwell at St Mirren FC, apparently he's the main decision maker as regards stadium operations. Complaining to the security company directly or even to a generic club email address will more than likely to be lost in the system or ignored.

His email is: brianc@saintmirren.net Hope this helps anyone who was there on Saturday and wishes to raise their concerns.

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Brave post. Your correct. I've never been chucked out, and never will. I can manage it. One steward, 'touches' (snigger) one fan. Everyone goes on about what the steward did wrong. Why is everyone kidding themselves? Your supposed to sit. That's the rules. The steward was quite clearly a mouth breather, you could tell because he's fat and wearing an orange jacket with 'Event Security' on the back. Do what you want, like anything you want, but please face up to the consequences of your actions. When I drink before a game, I go, knowing that no matter how much I don't like the rule, that I can get turned away at the gate, with no refund, for being under the influence. Stewards are diks, doormen are diks, call centers are a ***** way to conduct business, immigration is out of hand, money is king, burds hate me, nothing is built to last these days, everything is over priced, we're all under paid, my granny is dead, your granny is dead, Jade Goodie is dead, R & B is here to stay, Israel is too, life is unfair, Man U always win, Jez Clarkson is famous, and Odhiambo is never going to try. These are all facts of life, that we know about, failure to accept these facts will result in an uphill battle throughout life.

"you're well g@y but you're quite funny"

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Brave post. Your correct. I've never been chucked out, and never will. I can manage it. One steward, 'touches' (snigger) one fan. Everyone goes on about what the steward did wrong. Why is everyone kidding themselves? Your supposed to sit. That's the rules. The steward was quite clearly a mouth breather, you could tell because he's fat and wearing an orange jacket with 'Event Security' on the back. Do what you want, like anything you want, but please face up to the consequences of your actions. When I drink before a game, I go, knowing that no matter how much I don't like the rule, that I can get turned away at the gate, with no refund, for being under the influence. Stewards are diks, doormen are diks, call centers are a ***** way to conduct business, immigration is out of hand, money is king, burds hate me, nothing is built to last these days, everything is over priced, we're all under paid, my granny is dead, your granny is dead, Jade Goodie is dead, R & B is here to stay, Israel is too, life is unfair, Man U always win, Jez Clarkson is famous, and Odhiambo is never going to try. These are all facts of life, that we know about, failure to accept these facts will result in an uphill battle throughout life.

"you're well g@y but you're quite funny"

Its funny. I thought on CTO he is rather amusing, unlike in real life. Must be a keyboard. :amazed::amazed:

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Im probably going to get absolute pelters for this but here goes.

In my opinion this subject is getting rather tiresome. I have travelled to the majority of away games this season and love nothing more than following my team all over the country. I enjoy everthing about it. The trip down and back on the train, pre match drinks and getting the craic with my mates. But primarily im there to watch the football and support my team. Thats what it is all about. We are all down there to watch the game of football.

Now I totally agree with everyone else that some of the stewarding is ridiculous and heavy-handed but at some point everyone is going to have to stop all the nonense and abide by their rules. People got chucked out at the first away game of the season at tannadice and since then it has been happening on a weekly basis. There has been occasions where I too have argued with stewards over their dealings with some fans but there have been many instances where I have fully agreed with Stewards throwing certain fans out. A lot of our fans, particularly the young fans, seem to just be there to start something off with stewards. I've stood at a lot of games aswell but if your told to sit down a couple of times then your just going to have to do what they say. Its not like they are going to change their minds. We are all there to watch the game, not to get chucked out. But everyone cant seem to understand that. The youngsters seem to take great delight in arguing, goading and baiting the stewards. Its no wonder that they are getting chucked out and its embarassing that its happening every away game. Its even more embarassing that these people who have spent a fortune travelling to the game are only getting to see a part of the game when all they had to do was shut their mouths and just get on with the fact that the stewards are arseholes and not going to change their minds. You can slag off the stewards all you like but at some point fans are going to have to change the way they act.

Yesterday was a prime example. Granted the steward was way out of line with what he did, but what is he supposed to do when he was constantly getting abuse from them all. Everyone has their breaking point and I would challenge everyone of you to put yourself in his shoes and not react the way he did. I think everyone knows that the boy that it happened to has a fair mouth on him and there has been many occassions where he has been out of order with some of the abuse he has given. He was told many times to sit down but never once did. Why not just shut up, sit down and watch the game like he came to do?

Now I know that I'm now going to get dogs abuse for all this but this can't keep happening every week. Stewarding around the country needs changed and they do spoil an enjoyable day out but our fans are also going to have to change if they want this situation to get any better.

Great Post Sir and I agree with you in its entirety so you have been green dotted :twothumbsup:

Can't help but think i'd be looking at a serious amount of red if it had been my post though, but thats not the issue

All seater stadia are here to stay within top flight football in the UK and being a fan who endured outdated and dangerous grounds in the 80's and early 90's i welcome watching my football in modern safer environments and if that means sitting for the majority of the game well so be it

One thing I will say though is that every time this sort of thread raises its head, IHE appears to have been ejected or in his words close to have been ejected :ponder:

Finally you have to remember that anyone who is employed as a steward is more than likely to be of extremely low intellect and probably more so coming from Paisley

dougal

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Folks, thanks for all of the information and support on this one. The information has been forwarded to Brian Caldwell at St. Mirren, who has been courteous, open and helpful thus far. There are better things for us all to write about than stewards and teenagers I'm sure. I heartily agree with those who are counselling moderation from our supporters in this thread, but the real issue for me was that someone was kicked and manhandled and that steps beyond acceptability in any role. If a supporter had physically assaulted a steward, I would expect there to be consequences, and the same should apply to them. As for goading the stewards, I have tried to impress that it's a sure fire way to trouble, and I hope that behaviour from my boy at any rate will be better in future. However, these people are employed to ensure public safety in their role, and should not do anything to undermine that. So fair play to St. Mirren. They have promised to inform me of any outcome of their investigation and I will post details when this occurs. Until then, could I ask that we don't personalise what happened on this forum. Thanks, I'll see you all at Easter Road.

Edited by davie
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Aye ok then, but am no sitting next to you and yer loon.

Wise, very wise TM4TJ, after all it must be quite distressing sitting next to an unwashed unreconstructed dundonian. At least the loon knows no better.:smile:

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Well worth the green dots and even Dougal has a point in regard to chastising me - and I should be old enuff and wise enuff to know better :tongueincheek:

My point is that I feel that fans, including myself, are being picked on fer merely trying to support your team and create an atmosphere. Every time that I have been challenged this season it is because I have been accused of "inciting other fans to stand". I invariably SIT away from the main group of fans - which probably does single me up - but I stand up ONLY when we are attacking, when we score, to show non verbal displays of frustration or dissent or because I was brought up in the belief and the practice of singing chants at a football match, encouraging others to join in and having a good craic.

I have never deliberately attempted to wind up any steward or been abusive towards them - and the stewards do tend to pinpoint the peeple who are leading the chants.

I can appreciate that some can sit throughout a game in relative silence and there are rules laid down - but why are the rules so different at different stadiums - Midden first time round was wholly enjoyable whereas this time the stewards really did appear to be hell bent on being as rigid to the rule as possible.

They are not getting rid of the riff raff - they are punishing what some would say are the real "fans / characters". For the first time ever I actually got home and concluded that I really had not enjoyed the experience and fer a moment contemplated whether I should go back again or not - and it looks like others did as well.

So although I can concur with and apprecaiate whay caleytillidie said I feel that there is also another side to the coin - and that is the side occupied by loyal fans who want simply to have a good day out and not hooligans - I couldnt help thinking what would have happened in the 70's if the same incident happened ??

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Great post from Caleytillidie. The thing is, rules is rules and where they are silly rules you need to apply a bit of commonsense in judging how far you can go in breaking the rules. Where stewards are inflexible, rude and aggressive, then it is best to sit down and watch the game. Goading them and getting thrown out is not clever. Having said that there have clearly been times where the behaviour of the stewards is worse than that of the fans they are dealing with and if they are out of order it is perfectly legitimate to complain.

But for me, the problem is not so much the stewards but the rules they are required to enforce. Requiring fans to sit is a nonsense. We are left with the legacy of a massive over-reaction to the dreadful tragedy at Hillsborough which, in itself, was caused by a set of circumstances which were completely avoidable. The physical presence of seats prevents the kind of crowd surges which were common in the "good old days" but these could easily have been controlled by more barriers on the terraces and by sectioning off areas of terracing and controlling numbers in those areas. And in reality, the crowd surges rarely caused injury beyond minor scalding from a cup of spilled Bovril.

With seats in place, standing does not represent a risk and therefore there is no good reason why people should not stand provided that they are not standing in front of others who wish to sit. If fans at the back wish to stand or jump up and down then they should be allowed to do so.

As far as safety is concerned, the seating actually introduces greater risk in my view. Everyone is now channelled into often steep stair cases in order to exit the grounds and one person tripping could cause a significant incident. With the old terracing you descended on a wider front.

The terraces had other advantages. Those who wanted to sing could group together far more easily with the result that there was better atmosphere in the grounds. It was also more social as you could move around to speak with mates you might have spotted in the crowd. And the stewards? What stewards? There was no need for stewards on the terracing because there were no silly rules to enforce. Their role was simply to stop folk getting on to the pitch

If we want to get the soul back into British football it is time to put Hillsborough well and trully in the past and apply a bit of common sense at last. Bring back the terracing and bring it back soon whilst I am still physically capable of standing for 90 minutes.

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First off, as dougal has rightly pointed out, all seater stadia are the way it is. Though, as Caled has also pointed out, thats not strictly true. After some major incidents in european stadiums, and in light of the report into the Hillsborough disaster, the UK government passed law that any stadium with a capacity of over ten thousand had to be all seater. That law was accepted by all the UK clubs and they duly adhered to it. Knowhere in the recommendations, nor in the law, did any suggestion be made that everybody had to sit down in the seats. Only the SPL make that rule. Are we just meek and mild people who accept such stupidity or do we fight it.

Just watching Fulham v Chelsea and at least half of the crowd are standing. Do I see a steward being an asshole? No. As I said earlier the only way that we will get common sense and change is to protest. All fans of all clubs start by lobbying the chairmen of all clubs. These are the people who make the rules. These are the people who can change them.

I am a regular attendee at Scotland games at Hampden. I have stood with every other fan throughout a game. Indeed I only sit for a rest at half time. No steward has ever come along and told us to sit. If seventy thousand at Hampden can safely stand then a few thousand at the SPL clubs can do the same.

I have witnessed confrontation with stewards but that has only ever been when an over zealous steward thought he could impose his authority in an aggressive manner. I have also witnessed very sensible stewarding and a great rapport between them and the fans. Best example of that was at Motherwell when the steward thought someone should be removed for his own safety. Two minutes of conversation and an assurance that I would personally make sure the aforesaid person sat on his ass till the end of the game and everything was fine. Sensible stewarding and many of us stood throughout the match. Dewesbury you still owe me one.

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Great post from Caleytillidie. The thing is, rules is rules and where they are silly rules you need to apply a bit of commonsense in judging how far you can go in breaking the rules. Where stewards are inflexible, rude and aggressive, then it is best to sit down and watch the game. Goading them and getting thrown out is not clever. Having said that there have clearly been times where the behaviour of the stewards is worse than that of the fans they are dealing with and if they are out of order it is perfectly legitimate to complain.

But for me, the problem is not so much the stewards but the rules they are required to enforce. Requiring fans to sit is a nonsense. We are left with the legacy of a massive over-reaction to the dreadful tragedy at Hillsborough which, in itself, was caused by a set of circumstances which were completely avoidable. The physical presence of seats prevents the kind of crowd surges which were common in the "good old days" but these could easily have been controlled by more barriers on the terraces and by sectioning off areas of terracing and controlling numbers in those areas. And in reality, the crowd surges rarely caused injury beyond minor scalding from a cup of spilled Bovril.

With seats in place, standing does not represent a risk and therefore there is no good reason why people should not stand provided that they are not standing in front of others who wish to sit. If fans at the back wish to stand or jump up and down then they should be allowed to do so.

As far as safety is concerned, the seating actually introduces greater risk in my view. Everyone is now channelled into often steep stair cases in order to exit the grounds and one person tripping could cause a significant incident. With the old terracing you descended on a wider front.

The terraces had other advantages. Those who wanted to sing could group together far more easily with the result that there was better atmosphere in the grounds. It was also more social as you could move around to speak with mates you might have spotted in the crowd. And the stewards? What stewards? There was no need for stewards on the terracing because there were no silly rules to enforce. Their role was simply to stop folk getting on to the pitch

If we want to get the soul back into British football it is time to put Hillsborough well and trully in the past and apply a bit of common sense at last. Bring back the terracing and bring it back soon whilst I am still physically capable of standing for 90 minutes.

That is a brilliant post and says it as I would agree but without my personalisation - but football to me has the terrace mentality and the so called rules - agreeably stoopid - are vigorously upheld and acted on specific occasions. I would have said that all the times that the stewrads have been over zealous this season that the ICT away fans have taken a break only to be picked on even worse when we stand up to simply sing a song again.

Lets face it - the smaller the following the more that they will get picked on. It NEVER happens in the Premier League or the Championship !!

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First off, as dougal has rightly pointed out, all seater stadia are the way it is. Though, as Caled has also pointed out, thats not strictly true. After some major incidents in european stadiums, and in light of the report into the Hillsborough disaster, the UK government passed law that any stadium with a capacity of over ten thousand had to be all seater. That law was accepted by all the UK clubs and they duly adhered to it. Knowhere in the recommendations, nor in the law, did any suggestion be made that everybody had to sit down in the seats. Only the SPL make that rule. Are we just meek and mild people who accept such stupidity or do we fight it.

Just watching Fulham v Chelsea and at least half of the crowd are standing. Do I see a steward being an *******? No. As I said earlier the only way that we will get common sense and change is to protest. All fans of all clubs start by lobbying the chairmen of all clubs. These are the people who make the rules. These are the people who can change them.

I am a regular attendee at Scotland games at Hampden. I have stood with every other fan throughout a game. Indeed I only sit for a rest at half time. No steward has ever come along and told us to sit. If seventy thousand at Hampden can safely stand then a few thousand at the SPL clubs can do the same.

I have witnessed confrontation with stewards but that has only ever been when an over zealous steward thought he could impose his authority in an aggressive manner. I have also witnessed very sensible stewarding and a great rapport between them and the fans. Best example of that was at Motherwell when the steward thought someone should be removed for his own safety. Two minutes of conversation and an assurance that I would personally make sure the aforesaid person sat on his ass till the end of the game and everything was fine. Sensible stewarding and many of us stood throughout the match. Dewesbury you still owe me one.

Hoping to get up for Hibs game Alex, so sort you out with a wee thank you drink :thumbup:

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Or rather WE are not allowed to stand. On the matchday report thread there's a link from CapitalCaley to the St Mirren board.

The reason we aren't allowed to stand appears to be because there aren't enough of us standing...

So the simple solution is actually to take 2000 fans and then we can do whatever we like.

Yep. Basically if we took hundreds more fans who were the sort of tinky, low-life scumbags the Old Firm drag around Scotland in their wake then we could do what we want. As we have a relatively small, harmless support dickhead stewards rip the pish out of us.

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Stewards are just another reason why attendances are dropping all over Scotland,Do the people at the clubs not realise that they have to hold on to the customers they have left and start treating them with respect not like cattle

Football fans all over the country are being treated like scum by people who crave a little authority that they wouldn't otherwise get in their mundane lives,a luminous jacket changes that and a large percentage of them cant wait to use their authority just clowns

The Government really needs to get the bill for safe standing at football through in time for next season,the lack of atmosphere in grounds terrible and something needs to be done quickly,it works very effectively in many other european country's so why not here,Bayern Munich have a great safe standing sections which encourage a very vocal support,everyone has a standing number similair to a seat number,no problems

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