London Riots

[Yngwie]

Actually having read that back, I think I could get a job with the Daily Mail.

[PullMyFinger]

It's not my country. Feck 'em!

An 18-year-old man has been arrested by Tayside Police in connection with Facebook entries encouraging others to gather in Dundee city centre with weapons to riot. The teenager is due to appear at Dundee Sheriff Court on Wednesday morning

...and another in Glasgow:

But this is Scotland, we'll set aboot them!

The one in Dundee was a joke on Facebook which the police have rightly followed up on and the one in Glasgow is probably the same. I can't see the violence reaching our own country. Even if it wasn't cold and wet out just now there's too much apathy here.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Good luck, folks.

Here in Vancouver we just went through a similar occurrence here in vancouver, B.C. The comments you make eerily echo what we felt immediately after the Stanley Cup riots where cars were torched and plate glass was smashed together with rampant looting.

However these idiots never reckoned with the backlash that followed. ---5000 emails into police fingering people and 4000 photos sent in off cell phones, counless arrests in the hundreds, mea culpas by the young men who got caught and were shamed and forced to apologise on the T V .

Then hordes of very angry people flooded into the dontown and helped clean the whole mess up in quick time. I think there is a task force of at least fifty police officers who have been assigned to sift through the mountains of evidence but when the charges, et., will be laid is anybody's guess.

Your Mayor of Hackney was on our main T.V. news broadcasts today talking to one of the senior Canadian Broadcasting Corp. news anchors and he said heatedly that he saw adults in their 20's , 30.' s and forties in the street throwing bottles and so on and it was not just disaffected youth getting upset due to conditions of poverty etc., who were involved. He said they were downright hoodies hell bent on mayhem and what they think of as "fun", and looting by criminal gangs who came well prepared for trouble.

I have strongly advocated for years that the youth of today should be forced to go in for National military service to make them grow up and face reality but I doubt if that will ever happen either in Britain or in Canada these days because we have a weak P.M. also here in Ottawa.

Almost none of the Canadian politicians in Ottawa have ever been in the military.

Youth here in Canada are just about as spoiled as you can get in any country , have all the luxuries that you can think of, whilst their parents run up Visa and other debts to an increible extent. to fund all the toys, cars, cell phones, computers, tablets and so forth that the young people of today enjoy. Every other driveway here in Western Canada has the large 4 X 4 truck in the driveway which is often accompanied by a trailer (a large caravan) and cars for each of the kids.

All I can say to you in Britain during these undiscipl;ined and irreverent modern times is good luck. And I am quitting whilst I am ahead. Mr Cameron does seem to talk up a storm but whether he will act with a fist of steel is very much probably open to question.

One thing I do know is that if the rioters who are going to be charghed in Vancouver eventually get off lightly there may be another riot by the just and innocent..let's see what happens.

[+Gringo]

It's not my country. Feck 'em!

A man's a man for a' that...

There are a lot of your countrymen down here and are affected by these mindless riots I'm sure they'd be happy to hear your views.

[FoolPhysio]

Do not, repeat, DO NOT bring back National Service. We have the best and most professional armed services in the world. We do not want it diluted with this trash.

[PullMyFinger]

It's not my country. Feck 'em!

A man's a man for a' that...

There are a lot of your countrymen down here and are affected by these mindless riots I'm sure they'd be happy to hear your views.

A lot of my countrymen are in Afghanistan, they didn't choose to go there. If anyone chooses to live in a political warzone then what should they expect.

[Alex MacLeod]

Do not, repeat, DO NOT bring back National Service. We have the best and most professional armed services in the world. We do not want it diluted with this trash.

My father and his brother were National Service soldiers who were sent into a warzone in early fifties and that statement is offensive to their memory.

Having said that I believe National Service would not be a bad thing if only to hammer some discipline, respect and dignity into those who need it.

[SMEE]

Do not, repeat, DO NOT bring back National Service. We have the best and most professional armed services in the world. We do not want it diluted with this trash.

My father and his brother were National Service soldiers who were sent into a warzone in early fifties and that statement is offensive to their memory.

Having said that I believe National Service would not be a bad thing if only to hammer some discipline, respect and dignity into those who need it.

That would be my sole wish for having National Service back. But only IF....they were allowed to come down on those who needed it like a ton of bricks. Id much rather see the end of this whole Civil Liberties and Human Rights crap. We have become too soft in this country, hence why the UK is going to the dogs. It all starts at home, with bad parenting. Example....im on the bus into town today....theres an irritating lil kid on the bus...being hyper, jumping about all over the place, making a noise. The ammount of times the mother told him to pipe down.....seconds later....her or her freind...would then wind the kid back up. So the kid is getting confusing signals. Say what you mean and mean what you say! Too many people these days should just not be bringing kids into this world!

[CaleyD]

Do not, repeat, DO NOT bring back National Service. We have the best and most professional armed services in the world. We do not want it diluted with this trash.

My father and his brother were National Service soldiers who were sent into a warzone in early fifties and that statement is offensive to their memory.

Having said that I believe National Service would not be a bad thing if only to hammer some discipline, respect and dignity into those who need it.

Come on Alex, there was no inference at all that those who had done National Service in the past were viewed as "trash". The point clearly being made was that those out looting and burning are the "trash" and FoolPhysio would not want to see them tarnishing the good name or reputation of our armed forces.

[Alex MacLeod]

The so-called 'trash' would be a small minority of all those who'd be affected by national service. There are many, many more good kids in the country. Would they also be diluting the 'best and most professional armed services in the world'?

National service would bring the 'trash' together with the good and, had it never been done away with, perhaps it would do a lot more to clean the country of the type of behaviour being displayed on our streets now. If the parents and grandparents and all the 'do-gooders' had been subjected to the discipline of national service then perhaps the kids of today would be more likely to be disciplined and less likely to show disrespect and indignity towards their fellow beings.

[+DoofersDad]

The point about National Service is that it would stop youngsters becoming "trash" in the first place. I appreciate that many of the looters are younger than the age kids would be called for National Service but these youngsters are influenced and pressured by the older kids to behave in that way. All too often the younger kids are forced into the worst acts of antisocial behaviour in order to be accepted by the gang. National Service would help engender a more socially responsible attitude in the youngsters. Those who have done their service will no longer want to behave like this, whilst those a little younger would be off the streets doing their service. Both these factors would help to minimise the poisonous cycle of peer pressure and who knows, children might actually behave like children again

[+DoofersDad]

Another thought. Shooting the looters and arsonists is a tempting option but I don't think the nation is quite ready to agree to this yet. However, in order to get a bit of target practice in, why can't police marksmen make it a game of paintball and shoot the wee sh*tes with a splodge of indelible fluorescent pink dye. These could be fired from guns where the sight doubles as a camera for gathering evidence. This would serve 3 purposes. Firstly it would allow those with pretty pink splodges on their clothing to be identified as being appropriate for arrest and police could pick them up when safe to do so. Secondly, little toe rags arriving home with pink on their clothing would have some explaining to do. Thirdly, the police have a bloody hard time of it so why not let them have a bit of fun - might even get a pot at Nick Clegg or Boris!

[Scarlet Pimple]

What a brilliant idea. Multi-coloured kids would be afraid to go home I guess.

[starchief]

National Service? No. Keep the Army professional. Especially in this day and age.

Community service - absolutely. Not 13 weeks or whatever. Something like 3-5 years. Every weekend, cleaning buildings or the like. They'd hate that to begin with. But at the end...they'd be so precious about those they were cleaning regularly, I'd bet they'd turn out voluntarily, such is their pride. Ecologists kind of do that already. When we're working with contractors, we try to get them involved in the wildlife. They do a better job then and feel part of the project...giving away trade secrets here!

For youth in general? I think it could be a good idea. Not something soul destroying but something to improve the environment or help the community. As long as it's not punishment, but inspiring (and doesn't take away real jobs), I think it could work.

[PullMyFinger]

When we're working with contractors, we try to get them involved in the wildlife. They do a better job then and feel part of the project...giving away trade secrets here!

Feckin tree huggers.

[PullMyFinger]

Shamelessly stolen.

[CaleyD]

The so-called 'trash' would be a small minority of all those who'd be affected by national service. There are many, many more good kids in the country. Would they also be diluting the 'best and most professional armed services in the world'?

National service would bring the 'trash' together with the good and, had it never been done away with, perhaps it would do a lot more to clean the country of the type of behaviour being displayed on our streets now. If the parents and grandparents and all the 'do-gooders' had been subjected to the discipline of national service then perhaps the kids of today would be more likely to be disciplined and less likely to show disrespect and indignity towards their fellow beings.

Woulda, Shoulda, Coulda....that's still not what FoolPhysio was saying. I think it was fairly obvious that his reference to "this trash" was the thugs presently out on the streets and not a wider sweeping reference to everyone who may be forced into National Service if it were brought back.

FWIW, I agree with him. Those out there just now are pretty much a lost cause and I wouldn't want to be relying on them to protect and serve our nation. As to what NS might do for future generations...that's a whole different discussion.

[+MrCaleyjag]

Our systems lack discipline and order, the punishments are a joke and the jails are like summer camps. National Service brought about a sense of discipline, order and punishment, it made youngsters work for themselves and for others and taught them about looking after themselves and others.

Today no one gives two hoots about anyone else, about anyone elses property or the law. My point about National Service could/should have read that maybe it should never have been done away with as opposed to bringing it back, why not bring it back in another form? I am not saying to integrate those that we have seen on the tv and in the newspapers into out army, the point I was trying to make was that it is the sort of structure that they need to be taught discipline, order and common values.

We have got to the point where the very people that argued for this abolishion and pushed through all these laws that now protect youngsters are questioning what has gone wrong! They didn't like the way they were brought up, they didn't like the hardline their parents took and didn't want to parent that way, well guess what hasn't it just come back to bight your arse in a big way. Everything works in peaks and troughs and sadly we are right down at the bottom of a trough and god knows where we go from here.

All I know is all these so called doo-gooders, physcologists and analysts are rubbing their hands together with what we have seen. Not everything is down to people having a psycological problem, some are just pure evil and need more than just pampered. I am sure not many will agree with me but maybe the hardline is the way to go, a deterent is just that it deters people from doing things that are wrong, immoral and bad.

[+MrCaleyjag]

National Service? No. Keep the Army professional. Especially in this day and age.

Community service - absolutely. Not 13 weeks or whatever. Something like 3-5 years. Every weekend, cleaning buildings or the like. They'd hate that to begin with. But at the end...they'd be so precious about those they were cleaning regularly, I'd bet they'd turn out voluntarily, such is their pride. Ecologists kind of do that already. When we're working with contractors, we try to get them involved in the wildlife. They do a better job then and feel part of the project...giving away trade secrets here!

For youth in general? I think it could be a good idea. Not something soul destroying but something to improve the environment or help the community. As long as it's not punishment, but inspiring (and doesn't take away real jobs), I think it could work.

I can see what you are saying but I am sure most if not all would only be interested in what is in it for them, ie: how much money will they get for it? We are a world obsessed by greed and it has worked it's way down to the generations we see running the streets now.

A friend of mine posted this on Facebook - The Youth of the Middle East rise up for basic freedoms.The Youth of London rise up for a HD ready 42" Plasma TV - I chuckled inside when I read it, not because I thought it was funny but because I thought it was so true.

[Yngwie]

Round up all the rioters and ship them off to live on a remote island, where they'd have to form their own society and have responsible roles.

The island I have in mind is that Norwegian one with the polar bears.

[Heilandee]

National service doesn't necessarily have to be military.I don't believe compulsory military service could ever be re introduced in this liberal democratic society, but reckon a scheme whereby, after a given period on benefits,a claimant has to enrol in a national assistance scheme or drop onto a lower basic benefit rate. Those who participate for the pre determined period and contribute and enhance their community and environment would carry on receiving a more enhanced benefit rate,whilst still being actively encouraged to seek employment(difficult as it is in the current climate)

[FoolPhysio]

OK, since the National Service debate seems to have taken hold, here is my belief.

Having served myself and now heavily involved in the Sea Cadets as an officer, I have seen both sides as it were when it comes to children and adults in a military setting. I am not old enough to have been in NS, so I joined voluntarily and I maintain a close interest in all things military and especially naval. I have studied military as well as socio-political history and I hold strong views on personal discipline, respect for authority and the philosophy of personal development for the good of all and not just for the self.

The same debate has been had on whether these miscreants would benefit from time with the Cadet organisations and my response to that is the same as for NS - no. Our youngsters do well and achieve because most (not all, admittedly), want to be there. They want to be part of a group, they want to be stimulated by challenge and to feel the joy of achievement. They aspire, and they are active in their communities. In essence, they are role models of what the youth of today can achieve.

Our armed forces are highly trained and can operate in any environment in the world, maybe not the best equipped but certainly the best at utilising what they do have have to maximum effect. They also join voluntarily, because they want to be part of a team, to be stimulated by challenge and to feel that their achievements enhance the team and make a difference to the world at large.

Unfortunately, in these austere times, we are all under pressure to rationalise. In the case of the RN, that means de-manning to the tune of 3,500 personnel and a significant reduction of hulls in the water. The effect on the Army Cadet Force (ACF), Air Training Corps (ATC) and Combined Cadet Force (CCF) is likely to be severe as well, as they are beholden to the MoD for funding and equipment. Fortunately the Sea Cadet Corps (SCC) are primarily a registered charity (each Unit being a registered charity in it's own right as well) and we are weathering the storm relatively well, but we are indirectly affected by reductions and rationalisations in MoD estates that we use for training purposes.

National Service, or conscription if you prefer, was discontinued in Britain in the 1960s. It had been implemented as a result of the Second World War and at a time when Britain was slowly dismantling it's empire but there were still places to send them all, not forgetting of course the Korean War in the 50s. While I have the utmost respect for those who have served and made the ultimate sacrifice while wearing a uniform of the crown, let us not kid ourselves that many of those conscripted hated their time there, could not wait to get out and were unwilling participants who could have been a danger to the rest of their crew or unit as a result. What we have now is a professional force where virtually every one chooses to be there and does their bit. There is a vast difference between what we had then and what we have now, but that does not in any way infer that just because you were conscripted you were any less of a serviceman than the one who walked into the recruitment office and took the shilling of their own volition - many did indeed rise to the challenge and benefited enormously from the experience. However my point is that many did not.

But perhaps the most persuasive argument is this - who is going to pay for it, when we are told we cannot even pay for the armed forces we DO have?

The idea of youth camps and all the rest is simply fantasy. You are harking back to a golden age that did not exist. Harsh discipline did not make sailors and soldiers (and dare I say it, airmen) - camaraderie and "we are in it together" mentality did.

If this "disaffected youth" wanted to join a gang then there are plenty out there - Cadets, Scouts, sports groups, activity groups . . .. They don't want to be part of something useful, and they view authority and organisations as the enemy. I despair when I hear kids say "there's nothing to do". Bollards. What they actually mean is "there's nothing to do for free when I want to do it at my own selfish convenience." Neither NS nor enforced attendance at a gubbermint youth camp is going to shake that sort of lazy, selfish, greedy attitude.

But let me say this also. The majority of the kids I encounter are good, honest members of society who are simply finding their place in a complex modern society and they are what most kids have always been - willing to participate, willing to learn and willing to achieve. This so-called underclass is not representative of our kids, they are a lost generation and the way to deal with them is much more complicated than politicians will be willing to deal with.

What we have seen in England over the last week has been pure criminality, nothing more. This wasn't a protest. It was criminal behaviour. And they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

[CaleyD]

"Prosecuted to the full extent of the law"....how I wish that were happening.

Saw the interview with the guy on news last night who had been up in front of the judge.

He'd been caught with stolen clothing and plead guilty to "Possession of stolen goods". Fined ?100 and then had the fine wiped because he'd spent 21 hours in a cell. Some reports were doing the rounds that courts were accepting plea bargains...i.e. if the plead guilty to possession of the stolen goods then they wouldn't face charges of breaking and entering, having stolen them themselves or having taking part in rioting.

If that's Cameron's idea of tough justice then we truly are screwed.

Oh, and the lads justification for being out there..."well, it's got sumfin to do with people being upset at the police like. yeah, i been stopped and searched over 20 times for nuffin man. we've ad enuff"

Media are as bad...."protected his identity to save him from recriminations and so it doesn't impact on his career". What about the careers and livelihoods of the businesses he'd been ransacking!!!

[Alex MacLeod]

I wouldn't advocate national service as a means to gain numbers to send to war zones. I would, however, advocate the use of the expertise of those within the services to instill respect and discipline, using the same methods and paying the same monies as they do with volunteers. Basically make it compulsory for all those who commit crimes at a young age, truant or dont go on to further education or apprenticeships to attend a military style boot camp for six months. They'd be paid some pocket money and have bed and board for the period. They wouldn't have access to lifes luxuries but they'd learn how hard it is to afford such luxuries and that nobody has a right to just take what they cant afford.

Sentecing is a total joke in this country. Community service is not completed because local authorities haven't the funds to provide the required supervision for the convicted persons. We walk and drive around all over the place and see many instances where things could be improved using those convicts but alas there are no funds.

Jail is a total joke and likened more to a holiday camp. Fines are too small and probably cost as much to collect.

When I was growing up we were all scared of the local bobby. Nowadays the local bobby is scared of the youths.

[dougiedanger]

They should re-vamp the BBs, make it compulsory from Anchor Boy age. A bit of drill, gymnastics, the horse, the box, rings, first aid and badges would sort out these animals.