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Are the Scots being racist


Alex MacLeod

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Scotland, as well as one or two other EU countries provide free University education. Holyrood has indicated that they are going to charge those from other UK countries who wish to gain a Scottish degree. The English government and / or politicions of that country are not happy bunnies and are deeming us to be racist by our actions because we are not going to charge from other EU countries. My understanding is that there is an EU directive that allows students to travel within europe for education and that they are only charged whatever the rate is within the country they choose to have their education in.

The EU member state known as the UK is split into four other states, each with its own devolved powers. Scotland has control of its own education budget and chooses to provide free education to residents of this country and to other EU nationals.

The new charges would apply to anybody who is domiciled in one of the other UK states and would apply to English, Welsh, Irish, Scottish, Polish and any other nationality living within the UK but outwith Scotland but wants to be educated here. There is no intent to penalise one single nationality but anyone who crosses the border from within the UK.

With that in mind can the charges of racism stand.

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I found this on the BBC News website, posted in July 2009 showing the fees at that time:

STUDENT FEES (2009-10) England: £3,225 p.a. N. Ireland: £3,225 p.a. Scotland: free to Scots, £1,775 to other UK Wales: £1,285 to the Welsh, £3,225 to other UK Students from elsewhere in the EU pay the same as those locally Those from outside the EU pay whatever the university charges

The Scottish Parliament has always had devolved power over student finances and can therefore set their own charges as they control their own education budget and from the 2009-10 figures above shows that what has Alex is speaking about has been in force already since then. If the EU directive was not in place then I am sure that Scottish ministers would be charging those from EU countries to study here, in effect they are trying to offer free university education to students from Scottish schools as charging EU students would mean charging Scottish students.

I see no difference in the propasals Alex has highlighted from those above or are the rates changing? Really looking at the fees above the cheapest place for anyone in the UK to study is Scotland. It is cheaper to come from England and study in Scotland at the moment but with the governments changes with the fees and them being able to be risen up to £9000 a year I thnk this may change.

This is a good post but think it has been misinterpreted by Alex as the charges are currently in place, take a look at this link which highlights I think what Alex's post is about: (sorry you'll need to cut and paste it into your browser as I can't get the link to work properly)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland/-14607122

Alex if I have read your post wrong then I am sorry and apologise in advance.

Edited by MrCaleyjag
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Reading further into your post whether the fees have been in place for years are are just being put in place is irrelevent really but you make a good point about it in highlighting it anyway in whatever form.

Really the only thing I can see the Scots being guilty of is trying to provide free education for it's own students and protect the interests of those that are a domicile of their own country. Maybe the English should be looking closer to home at their own shody education system and be asking why more and more students are wanting to come to Scotland to study in the first place. Also why can they not offer students from England a cheaper rate from those coming into England to study?

The answer is they cannot sustain it and are trying to deflect the attention from the ridiculous power they brought in allowing universities from next year to raise their fees upto £9000 a year, a fee of which nearly 2 out of 3 universities have said they will make use of for some of their courses. While they are at it and attacking the Scots maybe they should attack the Welsh for their decision to charge others more than someone residing in Wales, is this not the exact same thing except for the fact that a fee of some sort applies just on different levels.

In my opinion there is nothing racist about it, there is nothing wrong with protecting our education system and making it sustainable for the long term for all to make use of they just have a bee in their bonnet as they are not able to or choose not to provide these benefits to their own students.

Edited by MrCaleyjag
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I think the fundamental problem lies with the EU ruling. I find it absurd that countries can't fix their own charges to their own students and charge any outsiders a fee to study there. This is just another example of the manner in which national autonomy has been diluted by the EU and We British have to dance to the tune of Johnny Foreigner. :laugh:

University eduaction is a devolved power so if the Scottish Parliament wants to make that free to Scottish residents then it is perfectly entitled to do so. To enable this, it presumably diverts funding from other public services for which they get their block grant. It is equally entitled to do that. But what I object to is people from the outside jumping on the bandwagon and expecting to get tuition for nothing as well - and having the backing of Brussels.

But I also expect that Salmond and his chums will regard this as another of these joint opportunities to make Scotland different and to stir up resentment south of the border which they value so much in pursuit of their only real policy.

Edited by Charles Bannerman
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Ironinally in an independent Scotland, Scottish universities would have to charge English and Scottish students the same.

The other irony is that we can only offer free university education to anyone because of the taxes English people are paying to subsidise us.

(Lights blue touch paper and retires...)

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Ironinally in an independent Scotland, Scottish universities would have to charge English and Scottish students the same.

The other irony is that we can only offer free university education to anyone because of the taxes English people are paying to subsidise us.

(Lights blue touch paper and retires...)

Think you need to take a closer look at the GERS reports for the last few years to see who is subsidising who. It's always better to take your information and form opinion from the source instead of relying on how one or other side spins it before putting it to press.

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Ironinally in an independent Scotland, Scottish universities would have to charge English and Scottish students the same.

The other irony is that we can only offer free university education to anyone because of the taxes English people are paying to subsidise us.

(Lights blue touch paper and retires...)

Think you need to take a closer look at the GERS reports for the last few years to see who is subsidising who. It's always better to take your information and form opinion from the source instead of relying on how one or other side spins it before putting it to press.

There is also the matter of taxpayers in Scotland paying more to subsidise expensive education for future fast food retail managers.

If we must payroll the free education for universities, instead of a gap year which many take introduce a community service program where they can make a genuine difference to their communities doing whatever their chosen career path dictates.

Yngwie, sign here. :nanananana:

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Ironinally in an independent Scotland, Scottish universities would have to charge English and Scottish students the same.

The other irony is that we can only offer free university education to anyone because of the taxes English people are paying to subsidise us.

(Lights blue touch paper and retires...)

Think you need to take a closer look at the GERS reports for the last few years to see who is subsidising who. It's always better to take your information and form opinion from the source instead of relying on how one or other side spins it before putting it to press.

There is also the matter of taxpayers in Scotland paying more to subsidise expensive education for future fast food retail managers.

If we must payroll the free education for universities, instead of a gap year which many take introduce a community service program where they can make a genuine difference to their communities doing whatever their chosen career path dictates.

Yngwie, sign here. :nanananana:

Not a fan of university education then?

Last time I looked tax payers in Scotland pay their tax to Westminster at the same rate as the English, Welsh and Northern Irish and from there Westminster decide on a budget for each countries government. If the tax went straight to Holyrood I would agree with your point but it doesn't.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Can't understand what all the fuss is.

Education, including higher and further, comes under the control of the Scottish Parliament. The government that we elected (and unlike the Westminster elections we really did!) have chosen to subsidise fees for Scottish students. It has been identified as a clear priority by those in power and they are choosing to fund out of the settlement so kindly passed sown to the serfs from the laird's table.

Now, because all English universities insist on charging everyone who attends their universities (as the body empowered to delivering education in their country doesn't see it as high up the list of priorities as, for example, funding soldiers to abuse Iraqis) some chose to label our government racist when, in reality, they should be praised for starting to reverse some of the despicable damage forced on our nation by Thatcher and her ******* love child Blair!

Be clear about one thing. Not a single elected member coming from Scotland to Westminster has every opposed abolishing tuition fees for English students attending English universities. It isn't on the agenda as the English politicians do not view it as important. The LDs (Lib Dems or Lap Dogs you decide) once did but.........the lure of the chauffeur, company car and cosy flat proved too much.

Delighted that some pompous individual from elsewhere in the UK is taking the issue to court. If it is ruled illegal, then the ability of any devolved part of a member EU state to vary their policies from elsewhere in the member state boundary must be under threat. It will cause mayhem throughout the territory. It will also stick another two points on the opinion polls for those supporting independence. Gae on yersel Rupert!

Edited by Sorted
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It's not racist, but it is ridiculous and unsustainable.

It's not ridiculous. Anyway if unis in England are charging up to ?9,000 for students it would be daft if Scotland didn't charge English students, if not then every student in England would be applying for places in Scotland. We should charge them the same that they pay in England.

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It's ridiculous because of the inconsistency whereby students from all over Europe (except England) can come to Scotland and get a free university education, even though they would have to pay fees in their own country.

What is ridiculous is that English students expect to attend Scottish Universities for free when they have to pay to attend their own.

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It's ridiculous because of the inconsistency whereby students from all over Europe (except England) can come to Scotland and get a free university education, even though they would have to pay fees in their own country.

England, Wales and N. Ireland.

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An easy way around the issue is to have the students local council pay the fees thereby making other countries liable for funding any students wishing to attend our higher educational establishments. Set a minimum term of residency before entitlement to funding (2-3 years?).

Problem solved or at least drastically improved.

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An easy way around the issue is to have the students local council pay the fees thereby making other countries liable for funding any students wishing to attend our higher educational establishments. Set a minimum term of residency before entitlement to funding (2-3 years?).

Problem solved or at least drastically improved.

Can someone explain to me what the problem is as I don't see one?

The EU rules ensure that any member state or part of cannot discriminate against any other sovereign member state. Within an member state, it is acceptable to have devolved regions/states (in our case a nation) that operates independently within the confines of the devolved settlement. Using this settlement the Scottish Government what to ensure that education is funded correctly and that, irrespective of your financial background you are able to pursue to the maximum of your ability with fees being removed as a barrier. This is the case for ever child who has undertaken their education (barriers in place to avoid short term moves) in the Scottish system irrespective of creed, colour or nationality. In accordance with EU rules, the same criteria are applied to all who wish to apply from any sovereign state.

The issue with the other component parts of the (dis)United Kingdom is that the do not wish to fund tuition fees for anyone and, accordingly, the apply these rules across the board. Choice being exercised by those that govern those areas. Why should they be entitled to benefit from devolved funding, allocated and prioritised by the devolved region?

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