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Dundee Utd -V- ICT : Matchday Thread


Scotty

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Great first 20 minutes, playing some lovely stuff. Andrew Shinnie looked very good in this spell as we limited Utd to ineffective breaks. Lost a poor goal but scored a worse one(from Utd's point of view).

Golabert certainly to blame for the 2nd goal. Body language of his teammates didn't bode well for the guy after the goal - noone approached the guy...wonder if he's already been warned about taking risks as the last man. Presumably Terry tore strips off him at HT as he was withdrawn.

We didn't turn up 2nd half; very disappointing. Graham Shinnie plugged away but not sure if anyone else deserved pass marks.

Tade worked hard and pestered the opposition but there's not much in terms of end product.

In conclusion, pretty grim times, with a sprinkling of just-visible hope.

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Tade is a real pain to the opposition but the final touch lets him down. He would be the perfect man in a 4 5 1 though, similar to when we had Marius, as for all the hype and money problems that came with him he wasn't a goal scorer, he was a right pain to the defense, he used to pull the opposition in and create spaces for our 5 mid fielders to finish off. Maybe Tade needs to lay the ball off to others more often.

I think we will struggle to keep hold of G Shinnie, the only time he doesn't win the ball is when hes been fouled.

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Just watched the goals on Sky and I cant believe that we took on Proctor at half time - please, please tell me that he wasnt played as a central defender ? - he was certainly at fault at the second goal. And please tell me that Golobart was injured - and we are not looking at yet another case of destroying a players' confidence and another Aldred scenario ?

It is not all about the injuries - the pre season was a shambles and we were wholly caught out by the early start. We kicked off with a new team, with unfit players and no time to gel - and the lack of a recognised central defender, holding midfielder and of course a recognised centre forward. Butcher has to take a fair deal of the blame as he has been chopping and changing the team (apart from injuries)and adhering to a creaky system since the off and his loyalty to some individuals and ignorance of the potential of other is concerning me.

For example - Morrison has been solid of late - why was he jettisoned ?

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well another case of dr jekyl and mr hyde here. Great first half entertainment with Caley carring on where we left off from last week playing some really good passing football. We created chances and where the better team but allowed to much space in the middle for uniteds opener as a lovely through ball cut us wide open and the guy (cant say his name) finished giving Ryan no chance. No worry we were level within 3 minutes some good football again aided by some slack defending allowed A Shinnie to put an inviting ball across the face into the path of Ross to score. I expected us to go on and we did create some good chances but we didnt capitalise and alklowed united back into the game. There second was horrific defending by golabart who was axed at half time. Yet again though we cant play for 90 minutes and the second half was poor tade had one chance to level but that was just about it. Butcher brought foran off and sutherland but he played a 4-5-1 which nullified the space for Shinnie who i though had an ok game and sutherland was so ineffective down the flank with tade up front it was like trying to break down a brick wall with a tooth pick. United's 3rd was again poor defending with our players falling alseep to allow 1st the cross to get in and 2nd to give Jon Daley (who just came on) to score a free header with his first touch. After that we huffed and puffed but there was no real quality and united held on pretty easy. There was one guy at the end who shouted ur **** towards Shinnies parents which was very harsh and a small arguement ensued but if this guy though A Shinnie was **** then he cant have any complaints about Graeme Shinnie who was magnificent really solid and bombed forward all game but with celtic next week we must pick up points against st mirren and the next few games after otherwise this could be a long hard season if it isnt already

I agree with you Greame Shinnie was solid .Our strikers are poor and so is the defence we need to sort that out or we are in big trouble . Don't think we stand a chance against celtic but we do need to start collecting points . Come on guys pull together and start scoring .

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first half we came out looked creative got at dundee utd done everything right exept score the first goal

andy shinnie played 3 or 4 teasing crosses into the box just no one on the end of them think he scufed his shot to set nick up but im not gonna complain

defending cost us i didnt think we deserved to be 2-1 down at half time but down to some terrible defending we were

second half we may aswell as started with 10 men david davis done nothing he just vanished the whole half everything tansey tried didnt work throw ins were taking longer and longer andy shinie was the only one trying to get the ball down and pass and the only place he could pass it was back we have missed cox in that defensive midfeild role this season

foran got hooked for sutherland early in the second half who got put out wide :thumbdown:

tades touch let him down

graeme shinnie if he continues at this rate will be player of the year

but we need to stop feeling sorry for ourselves and start doing something about it!

bring on celtic!

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Today was quite worrying really, after a start that was poor results wise but hopeful in others. Today though we look like a team that can neither defend nor score goals, despite playing some good football. I really hope that Golabert was injured at half time - the second was not his fault - he was given an absolute hospital pass from Tade. Others were at fault for the other goals, and bringing on David Proctor was mystifying. Also playing sutherland out wide when he came on was odd. Whatever, it didnae work. we were not poorer man for man than Utd and more than matched them in some areas, so the injuries card is wearing a bit thin. What was at fault was touch, confidence, choice of personnel, shape and tactics. Fans have a right to voice their dissatisfaction, and the manager shouting and swearing at them when they do so is unhelpful. Likewise, fans have a responsibility to voice dissatisfaction reasonably and getting to the stage of having the polis involved is unseemly. This needs sorted before the wheels come off our season.

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Best opening display ive seen from us so far this season. We looked dangerous on the attack and were creating chances...but as usual the defending lets us down. Cheap goals to concede and it is something that needs to be sorted. While Golobart was having to contend with Tade's pass he should have down better at attacking the ball, his reluctance to head the ball at times is a worry. It is dissapointing as he started the game rather brightly.

2nd half we were a different team, the only players that really came out for the 2nd half were Graeme Shinnie and Ryan Esson. Davis who had started the game very brightly became a complete passenger in the 2nd half and simply stopped running and Tansey was far too busy trying to pick out the perfect pass, most of which werent paying off and United came out much more eager to increase their lead.

As for the hullabaloo at full time i dont think there was really anyone in the right here. Fans should get behind the team but have a right to their opinion as paying punters. If the Shinnie family are going to be in attendance then they are going to have to accept the fact that sometimes their boys are going to get some stick, as much as theyd like to defend their boys - thats football, if you cant handle it then dont come to the game.

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Best opening display ive seen from us so far this season. We looked dangerous on the attack and were creating chances...but as usual the defending lets us down. Cheap goals to concede and it is something that needs to be sorted. While Golobart was having to contend with Tade's pass he should have down better at attacking the ball, his reluctance to head the ball at times is a worry. It is dissapointing as he started the game rather brightly.

2nd half we were a different team, the only players that really came out for the 2nd half were Graeme Shinnie and Ryan Esson. Davis who had started the game very brightly became a complete passenger in the 2nd half and simply stopped running and Tansey was far too busy trying to pick out the perfect pass, most of which werent paying off and United came out much more eager to increase their lead.

Great summary of the game. We were probably unlucky to go in a goal down at half time, but by the end of the game it felt like we had been well beaten.

What concerns me about the second half performance yesterday is the fact that we really didn't look like a team. Obviously we've been very unlucky with injuries, but that in itself doesn't explain why no-one, except perhaps Graeme Shinnie, was prepared to start trying to drive the team forward. The player with most responsibility for doing that would be Foran, I suppose, so I was a bit surprised when he was substituted so early even though he hadn't had a great game. If he was injured, fair enough; but if he was taken off that early because of tiredness or because Butcher felt he wasn't contributing enough, then it is a worry: you would expect your team captain to be on the park for almost all of almost every game. I also feel that Tokely, who as the club's most senior professional also has some responsibility to motivate and organise the team on the park, has looked very subdued all season. Of the rest, Davis looked composed but rather lethargic in the second half, Andrew Shinnie worked hard but looked pretty lightweight and too prone to be knocked off the ball and Nick Ross seemed to be on the margins for long spells. Tansey was arguably our best midfielder, but again didn't really impose himself on the game. Tade was perhaps our most dangerous player, and certainly no-one could accuse him of not trying, but yesterday confirmed again that he's not really a striker. As for Golobart, I contrived to be at the pie stall when the second Utd goal went in, so I didn't see his error, but the fact that Butcher hooked him at half time doesn't bode terribly well for his future.

I've not seen any interviews with Butcher yet, but it looked at the end of the game as if he was pretty discouraged: normally he's very conscientious about acknowledging the supporters, and yesterday the team was applauded off the park by most despite the result and the second half performance, yet the manager simply stormed off up the tunnel.

I expect nothing from Celtic Park next week, but the St Mirren game is starting to look quite significant. Every side in the league looks capable of picking up points, and at the moment I couldn't convincingly argue why we are less likely to go down than any other team. This absolutely isn't doom-mongering: it's simply an acknowledgement of the fact that we are in a very difficult situation in a very competitive league. If Terry Butcher can get us out of relegation danger with games to spare this season, then it will speak volumes for his management.

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The only three players I would praise yesterday were Graeme Shinnie, Nick Ross and Ryan Esson.

Graeme was the only one to give at least 90% throught the match. Nick Ross was working hard down the right, despite drifting further infield, and but for the goals (which he couldnt do much about) Ryan made a few fine saves and collected crosses well. I remember he ran through a crowd of players to punch clear in the first half. Solid 'keeping there.

As for the rest, they were all pretty dire. There seemed to be no communication at all, and I was particularly disappointed with Froan's display. Usually so vocal and competitive, he seemed to just go with the flow yesterday. Tade was ok in spells but sometimes slow to react and his touches were heavy and wayward. As for Andrew Shinnie, he quite rightly got a load of stick from the fans, and clearly his family defending him only added fuel to the fire. I found it particularly amusing when his mother turned round to shout how well her eldest had done to set up the equaliser, when clearly it was a fluffed shot on goal, rather than a cross.

Shane didnt really seem to know where he was meant to be playing as he drifted from up-front to the right wing constantly. Rosscoe was unusually indecisive and quiet, and why on earth is Proctor still on our books. We may as well have played 3 at the back and simply move Golabart up front with Tade. He is, after all, meant to have ability up front too is he not.

Overall I was very disappointed with our performance, especially after we started the game bright and were unfortunate to go behind twice. Only the Trust Bus journey on the way to and from the match made my day enjoyable, so thanks to everyone on it for raising spirits after such a dire affair.

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I thought we finally looked like a team that had got it together for the first 20+ minutes. Utd's first goal came against the run of play, but that didn't seem to phase us and the team were sticking to the game plan. The Nick Ross goal seems to getting credited as a "gift" but I disagree. Nick Ross has shown a willingness to be persistent in chasing everything. That together with split second timing is what resulted in him being in the right place to pinch the ball off the toe of the defender and stick it in the net.

Anyway, whilst we stuck to our own game plan...which was being well executed...we looked the better team. It wasn't until we got drawn into playing Utd's game that the wheels started to come off.

I think we missed Morrison in the middle of the park..in the same way as we used to miss having Duncan in there.

Utd did to us what we normally do to other teams yesterday...punished us when hitting on the break. Mostly due to the fact that we spend more time backing off from anyone who makes a run towards the area instead of getting in the early tackle. I joked yesterday that, with the exception of Graeme Shinnie, our back line looked like it could run faster backwards than it could forwards.

Foran wasn't right from the start of the game yesterday...he was slow and his reactions were definitely jaded. I was surprised he lasted as long on the park as he did.

For the first time this season I came away from a game feeling more than a little concerned. I think it does most of the guys out there a disservice to suggest that we're struggling due to injuries and/or the team not having had time to gel.

All Butcher had to do at half-time was get the team back out there playing the way they had for large spells of the first half (especially the first 20+ mins). If Golobart hasn't come off through injury then that change was the first mistake...he might have made a couple of errors, but a reminder to keep it simple would have stemmed that issue. Second error was taking on Shane Sutherland and sticking him out wide..the lad's a striker, play him in his natural position if you want to see the best of him. If Butcher wanted a wide player then we had Chippendale on the bench, given that the Utd defence had shown signs of weakness earlier in the game, then having a player with a bit of pace who, in his brief appearance last week, showed willingness to run at players, would have proved far more effective.

In summary...the team lost their way a bit in the first half and just needed someone to get them to re-group...that never happened. Butcher lost his way in the second half and failed to rectify the issues we could all see from sitting in the stand.

Yesterday was a bad day...pure and simple. We can't hide behind the "new squad and injuries" excuse any more. Everyone on the pitch yesterday is more than capable of producing a better performance over 90 minutes than we managed to do.

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I've only been able to get to a couple of matches this season so really cannot comment on the way players are playing. However, the general theme seems to be that we have a team capable of playing some good stuff, are creating a lot of chances but we are being let down by some basic errors at the back and a lack of a natural scorer at the front. When Golobart was signed I think I read that he was a defender who can play as a striker so I wonder if it would be worth trying him at the other end. If he could be responsible for as many going into the net at the right end as he appears to be at the wrong end, we could start moving in the right direction.

People seem to be praising Tade's work rate so it would be hard to drop him. Foran appears to be playing further forward but has missed a number of good chances. An alternative would be for him to be playing deeper with Sutherland in a more central striker role playing off Tade. Sutherland has often impressed me and seems to have an eye for goal. It seems a waste to play him wide as often seems to be the case.

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Really good first half and didn't deserve to be down at half time. Tade was standout for me in the first half. Second half we were awful. I cannot believe Butcher put Procs on at centre half. Yes, Golobart made a mistake but would it really improve things with Proctor on?! In saying that, Procs had a decent game so maybe it was a shrewd move! I thought we had turned the corner but not now after that second half preformance.

I'm really dissapointed that Foran has underpeformed this season. Another shocker of a game and he seems to have lost all confidence. Although, I would have taken Andrew Shinnie off before Foran (but I wouldn't dare tell his mum and dad that :rotflmao: )

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Was I imagining it, or were the Stewards a bit better this time at Dundee? I think it was a different stewarding company and when they were requested to sort out why we were originally stuck in a corner with poor views of the pitch, they did arrange for us to get slightly better seating further along by moving the cordon tape. Well done to Margaret M for taking the stewards on and getting it sorted. That wouldn't have happened with the previous stewards. Even the cop who stood near me at the back had good craic! Changed days indeed at Dundee.

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Not happy with Butchers quote that the fans should remember that we had 7 key players out. What is so key about all 7? Would they actually make the starting 11? Gillet was fit enough for the bench but there is no way he is going to get a game before G.Shinnie. So really the "key" players are Hayes, Cox and Doran (just). I don't think any off the others make us any stronger. Now some off the players he punted in the summer WOULD have made us stronger. An injured player didn't make Golaburk try to kick the ball instead of head it. An injured player doesn't stop Tade keep missing one on ones. An injured player would still be better than Proctor at centre half. Then again, I would be better than Proctor at centre half! Before anyone mentions Hogg, he doesn't make us any stronger either.

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Not happy with Butchers quote that the fans should remember that we had 7 key players out. What is so key about all 7? Would they actually make the starting 11? Gillet was fit enough for the bench but there is no way he is going to get a game before G.Shinnie. So really the "key" players are Hayes, Cox and Doran (just). I don't think any off the others make us any stronger. Now some off the players he punted in the summer WOULD have made us stronger. An injured player didn't make Golaburk try to kick the ball instead of head it. An injured player doesn't stop Tade keep missing one on ones. An injured player would still be better than Proctor at centre half. Then again, I would be better than Proctor at centre half! Before anyone mentions Hogg, he doesn't make us any stronger either.

Anyone else think that TB is feeling the heat? TBH the injury card is wearing pretty thin and his reaction to someone shaking their head at him was ott. We also have Foran in the press and journal apologising to TB but not to the fans who spent good money going to the game to support the team. Anyone else think something must have happened at half time in the dressing toom? We could clearly see tensions on the park in the second half between players eg at one point Esson looked like he was going to deck Proctor he was shouting at him so much. Cant think of a striker injured now and agree that really realistically we are missing Cox and Hayes so agree with above. Actually couldnt believe my eyes when proctor lined up at centre half in the 2nd half. BNo mention of Golabart being injured either! I think Golabart is basically a fairly decent defender who is going to be prone to bomb scare moments but inho we would be better with this scenario that Proctor.

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I wasn't at the game, but my thoughts could be that the players went in at half time, Butcher singled Golobart out and ranted and raved at him for his mistake. Her then decides to take him off, damaging his confidence even more and replaces him with Proctor (if that doesn't down your spirits I don't know what will!). Butcher's antics then leaves the players all a bit dispirited and thus end up losing the game. Wouldn't surprise me if that is the kind of scenario is what has taken place.

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Butcher has charisma and is a charming personality but he is displaying that narcisstic arrogance where he comes across as being beyond reproach at times. It is as much about setting up a system and trying to maintain it plus selection consistency and perseverence. Chopping and changing when there is injuries is acceptable - chopping and changing when an individual has an off day or an off moment is not acceptable.

Said it a lot of times before but the "togetherness" ingredient is sadly lacking at the moment - if the very loyal fans are beginning to voice doubts then there must be doubts about the solidity of the dressing room as well.

Butcher can change that and he can turn it around but he has to start taking the flak of the players - and now even the support - by burdening some of the blame and bringing some consistency to ICT. It has been a very reactionary feel to the management this season.

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