Dundee Utd -V- ICT : Matchday Thread

[PaderbornCaley]

Not happy with Butchers quote that the fans should remember that we had 7 key players out. What is so key about all 7? Would they actually make the starting 11? Gillet was fit enough for the bench but there is no way he is going to get a game before G.Shinnie. So really the "key" players are Hayes, Cox and Doran (just). I don't think any off the others make us any stronger. Now some off the players he punted in the summer WOULD have made us stronger. An injured player didn't make Golaburk try to kick the ball instead of head it. An injured player doesn't stop Tade keep missing one on ones. An injured player would still be better than Proctor at centre half. Then again, I would be better than Proctor at centre half! Before anyone mentions Hogg, he doesn't make us any stronger either.

Anyone else think that TB is feeling the heat? TBH the injury card is wearing pretty thin and his reaction to someone shaking their head at him was ott. We also have Foran in the press and journal apologising to TB but not to the fans who spent good money going to the game to support the team. Anyone else think something must have happened at half time in the dressing toom? We could clearly see tensions on the park in the second half between players eg at one point Esson looked like he was going to deck Proctor he was shouting at him so much. Cant think of a striker injured now and agree that really realistically we are missing Cox and Hayes so agree with above. Actually couldnt believe my eyes when proctor lined up at centre half in the 2nd half. BNo mention of Golabart being injured either! I think Golabart is basically a fairly decent defender who is going to be prone to bomb scare moments but inho we would be better with this scenario that Proctor.

Butcher shouted up at a fan: 'Don't you shake your head at me!' Then another fan shouted: 'That was sh*te today. Get it sorted Butcher!' Butcher then shouted something ( I couldn't make it out) and waived his fist in the air in a rage and stormed off up the tunnel. He's very good at PR but seems to struggle with fans criticism!

[Jaggie994]

Golobart was hooked at half time, Butcher was livid by all accounts. He's been told he won't start against Celtic.

[tm4tj]

Who, Butcher or Golobart?

[davie]

Who, Butcher or Golobart?

Welcome back mannie, you've only been away a week! plus les choses changent plus elles restent les m?mes, allegedly.

[old caley girl]

Not happy with Butchers quote that the fans should remember that we had 7 key players out. What is so key about all 7? Would they actually make the starting 11? Gillet was fit enough for the bench but there is no way he is going to get a game before G.Shinnie. So really the "key" players are Hayes, Cox and Doran (just). I don't think any off the others make us any stronger. Now some off the players he punted in the summer WOULD have made us stronger. An injured player didn't make Golaburk try to kick the ball instead of head it. An injured player doesn't stop Tade keep missing one on ones. An injured player would still be better than Proctor at centre half. Then again, I would be better than Proctor at centre half! Before anyone mentions Hogg, he doesn't make us any stronger either.

Anyone else think that TB is feeling the heat? TBH the injury card is wearing pretty thin and his reaction to someone shaking their head at him was ott. We also have Foran in the press and journal apologising to TB but not to the fans who spent good money going to the game to support the team. Anyone else think something must have happened at half time in the dressing toom? We could clearly see tensions on the park in the second half between players eg at one point Esson looked like he was going to deck Proctor he was shouting at him so much. Cant think of a striker injured now and agree that really realistically we are missing Cox and Hayes so agree with above. Actually couldnt believe my eyes when proctor lined up at centre half in the 2nd half. BNo mention of Golabart being injured either! I think Golabart is basically a fairly decent defender who is going to be prone to bomb scare moments but inho we would be better with this scenario that Proctor.

forgot about Tudor Jones he would probably make the 1st team!

[Govan Jaggie]

Not been convinced by Mr Jones in the games he played.

I know there wasn't many but he didn't seem to force himself

into the game.

[Pele_Is_God]

Would not be the first time Butcher has lost it with our fans, remember our home game last season I think it was a defeat to Queens.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Purely from a psychological perspective the wounds are deeper than superficial. Terry has enjoyed nothing but support and plaudits from supporters, media and to a degree playing staff and the board - until recently. I suspect that he may have become too comfortable and, to be fair, appears to enjoy the Highland life and appears to have settled in the area. His personality - and management career - suggest that he uses the aggressive stance to avoid criticism or to gain respect. That ploy does not appear to be working any more. I also suspect that, despite his calm and collected demeanour, he is adverse to criticism and there must be an underlying fear of rejection or even a sense of humiliation and he has more to lose than just his job this time. There is also evidence of "splitting" behaviours in the dressing room.

I have no wish to link any of this with the earlier life of TB - but take a look at Narcisstic Personality Traits and you tell me if I am way wide of the mark.

The big question is whether he can reflect on this and/or allow anyone to confront him. I fer one sincerely hope that he can He has to adapt his personality, use the postive or even manipulative aspects of the traits, and become more of the appeaser, the defender than the aggressor and the victim.

[starchief]

If I remember correctly Tudur-Jones played 3 times. The first, he was man-of-the-match, the second, he was average and the third, he only lasted 2/3 of the final match due to injury (and how long was he injured for in that match?). That's a bit early to be writing him off. Remember, Hayes wasn't great to start with, with Eagle looking a better player early on.

I do think Terry can still blame injuries as they are in specific areas. All the defensive midfielders were injured. It's the heart of the team and dictates our play. Just look at Arsenal. Terrific world-class players - no bite.

Our two wide players were injured. Chippendale is an emergency loan, so there's no reason to believe he's as good as either Hayes or Doran. He may very well be a third-choice, better-than-nothing player that will be used as fresh legs from the bench.

A fit Hogg is also a better player than Tokely, Proctor or Golobart. With Hogg, Proctor, Tudur-Jones and Gillet all injured, there was really little choice in the central defence. A crucial part of the team. I know people will say Butcher should have kept Munro. Although I agree in principle, in practice, that's not the problem. It was probably Hogg or Munro - and both are as likely to be injured as each other - so it's an injury, as opposed to a player.

Who could anticipate all the defensive midfielders being injured? All the central defenders, barring Tokely being injured? Both wingers being injured? I don't think we can anticipate short-term emergency loans to be of the same quality as our first choice team.

The big player we're missing is Adam Rooney but no surprise really. We can't sign anyone of that immediate quality. And just because Golobart can play attack doesn't mean he's as good up there as he is in defence. I'd also say, when you're having difficulty scoring, losing goals through showboating is unforgivable. Perhaps the best thing for Golobart is to lose a bit of confidence, so he does the simple thing, rather than the extravagant.

That said, I do think we have to adjust our tactics a bit to make us a bit more defensive minded. Make us difficult to beat. Once we get our defence-minded players back and a winger, then we can be a bit more expressive. But for now, something that makes us solid and counter attacking is our best bet.

[Govan Jaggie]

Am I not right in thinking that Hogg and Munro both left but Hogg couldnt get a club so came back? Not dissing Jones yet just stating that I hadn't seen enough. Man of the match doesn't always give a true reflection I am afraid.

Did we sign a good standard of defender this summer? My opinion, no. We then get injuries and take young emergancy loans.

Did we sign good defensive midfielders this summer? Not to be convinved. I like the look off Tansey but he is no defensive player.

Did we sign decent forward this year? No.

Did we let key players in all these positions go or have leave at the end of a contact? Yes.

With this in mind you open yourself up to be effected by injuries. You end up with emergancy loans like Golabart, Chippendale, Davis and Aldred.

It aint burst yet but we are running out of fingers to plug this particular dyke!

[Ronaldo]

I agree entirely with the last two posts.

My question is even when we have a full squad available, who is going to score us the goals that will move us up the table?!

[Scarlet Pimple]

If Tansey does not curb that terrible tendency he apperas to have of blootering the ball ten feet over the bar then he may yet turn out to be as ineffective as anyone. I mean don't they ever practice these shots in training.Why can't he keep his eyes on the ball and the balls on the grass?

[Scarlet Pimple]

If Terry keeps losing his temper then he will eventually lose his job I fear. That will only make things worse all round.

Golabart simply did not go in to that tackle with intent . He was a ***** and the D .U . player simply overran him. Gollo must learn to be macho and determined IMHO

BUT a stern word from Terror Terry would have been enough not a tongue lashing.

Itw as Terry B that decimated a decent team out of a mad desire to be successful,overnight and threw caution to the winds And now he has no players and no cohesion. Sorry Terry, take your licks and face up to it --YOU caused it !

[Renegade]

Would not be the first time Butcher has lost it with our fans, remember our home game last season I think it was a defeat to Queens.

Indeed he did. In fact if you look through time it's not the first time he's done such a thing - his rather condescending remarks towards Australia for one and the time he flicked the Vs at his own supporters while player/manager of Sunderland is another.

To me, when a manager has a go at a support in this such a way, it doesn't show strong leadership - it shows an inability to cope under pressure. I seem to recollect one of Brewster's latter games was against Dundee United, which resulted in a 3-1 home defeat. That day ICT were well and truly outplayed - something that wasn't helped by Brew's tactical decision in playing Proctor at centre half and Jamie Duff at right back. Who did Brewster blame for the defeat? That's right - the fans! That was Brewster's episode of being seen to be under pressure - similar to the way Butcher must be feeling right now.

At times like this, a club needs somebody who can keep their cool and can be seen to be confident and composed. Of course, losing ones rag and attacking the team after a bad performance or defeat is something every manager will have done, but that is behind closed doors. Having a go at the loyal supporters after one happens to shake their head is a somewhat different matter. It doesn't show strong leadership on the manager's part one bit.

[Alex MacLeod]

Wonder if Terry reads these forums. If he does then maybe for the next game he leaves Golobart in and plays

Piermyer, Tokely, Golobart, Shinnie G

Proctor

Foran, Ross, Davis

Tade, McKay

And, of course, Esson in goal

[+MrCaleyjag]

Wonder if Terry reads these forums. If he does then maybe for the next game he leaves Golobart in and plays

Piermyer, Tokely, Golobart, Shinnie G

Proctor

Foran, Ross, Davis

Tade, McKay

And, of course, Esson in goal

If Terry reads these Forums then maybe he should take some advice from the fans before he decides to turn on one, regardless of what the fans are saying they pay their money and are entitled to voice their opinions. He must also remember that he is the face of the club and therefore any unneccessary exposure especially in the face of bad results will be picked up on straight away and be focussed on more, he is working and must keep a professional head on regardless of his feelings.

The best thing he could do is apologise in some way for his actions towards said fan(s) I wasn't there so can only comment generally but it is not the sort of behavior I expect from the manager of my team. I am still 100% behind TB but if he is losing the head how does that portray to the players as well.

[starchief]

Och, I enjoy all that. It's all part of the passion. Do you really want Steve McLaren sitting with his umbrella? I much preferred it when I saw Brian Clough and Jock Wallace lamping their own fans for daring to cross them. That's the fun and the passion. The more of that, the better.

[tm4tj]

Since when has any manager taken advice from fans? I also doubt your ticket entitles you to anything more than entry to the stadium and watching a game within the rules of the stadium. Voicing your opinion is optional. If fans can't take it, then don't dish it out.

Get over it.

[old caley girl]

Agreed but I don't know if shaking your head is dishing it out.

[Huisdean]

Since when has any manager taken advice from fans? I also doubt your ticket entitles you to anything more than entry to the stadium and watching a game within the rules of the stadium. Voicing your opinion is optional. If fans can't take it, then don't dish it out.

Get over it.

Totally agree. Too many fans think they can shout abuse at players & managers the whole game then complain loudly when they have a go back. This is not exclusive to ICT but some fans need to remember this. Also can we please stop harping on about the players let go in the summer. We are trying to play a different way and Munro cnnot play that way (witness the display against Celtic tonight, same old hoofs up the park. We are not the only team struggling just now but no team has had the injuries we have. Some fans sem to forget that the majority of the injuries are to first team players and their deputies are either not yet at the same standard or the loan signings have still to prove their worth.

[Alex MacLeod]

Sorry Mr CJ but I have to agree with the comments after yours. If fans want the right to express their disappointment at the manager then they must also accept that the manager has as much right to retaliate. Fans begin to lose their tempers with the manager when things are going wrong. The manager does the same. Its a natural symptom of frustration.

[CaleyD]

The point that Butcher (and one or two on here, some of who weren't even at the game) seem to be missing is that much of the disappointment is not a result of us losing, it's the manner in which we lost.

That has nothing to do with injuries or bad luck or the team still gelling...it's due to players not doing what we know they are capable of doing, getting the tactics wrong and failing to adapt.

What does he expect in return for that...rapturous applause???

He thinks ICT fans are bad...the fans of many other clubs would be calling for a Managers head for being in the position we are in at present. He should be thankful that the fans, for the most part, appreciate what he's trying to do and appreciate that plan has been hampered a bit by injury and continue to show willing, support and Trust that it will come good. If he thinks the fans are against him then he's very much mistaken.

If he wants to alienate the fans and turn them against him, then swearing at them in the vile manner he did is the surest way to go about it....especially when their was absolutely NO justification for it.

[AJS]

He thinks ICT fans are bad...the fans of many other clubs would be calling for a Managers head for being in the position we are in at present. He should be thankful that the fans, for the most part, appreciate what he's trying to do and appreciate that plan has been hampered a bit by injury and continue to show willing, support and Trust that it will come good. If he thinks the fans are against him then he's very much mistaken.

This!

Butcher has alot to justify to us with the amount of changes he has made over the summer. Injuries have been a major disruption but its not a strong enough excuse. Our form of the previous season was a reflection of how settled our squad was, strange how much can happen in a year. So far the only consistent factors in our form this season are that we have no clean sheets and that out of the 8 games weve played 3 of them have seen us drop points in the last few minutes. This is simply not good enough, regardless.

However despite our hurrendous start i havent heard anyone calling for Butcher's head and i dont think we should. He isnt one to walk away from a challenge, he's made his changes and will stick with them. After the Celtic game we have some key games against the likes of St Mirren and Dunfermline, these are the games i think that will define where we stand for the season, however if we fail to take anything from these games then i will start to worry.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

In fairness to TB - and in line with my prior psychological profile - the man is a winner and hates losing - he also comes across as a bit of a perfectionist. His recent outburst was probably borne out of frustration and anger at players but unfortunately projected at the support. I dont think that he has to say sorry but he should bear the blame.

And as I said before - this pre season was a chaotic shambles where many errors were made.

[Renegade]

Golobart was hooked at half time, Butcher was livid by all accounts. He's been told he won't start against Celtic.

And that'll probably mean Proctor's back in - I don't think that bears thinking about!