Butcher OUT!

[Sonam]

Has the team improved this season? No, gone backwards. I say Butcher & Malpas for the sack. A relegation battle is hardly exciting. It will be between us & Dunfermline. Horrible feeling that we will go down. Now is the time to change management before too late. Sack Butcher and we may just survive.

[farki1]

Get a grip!

[givmeaccccc]

Hold this post until the end of October. By Butcher's own admission this is a crucial month with some winable games coming up. In any case with new 2 year contracts signed there is no chance the management duo will be going anywhere.

[Alex MacLeod]

Sorry sonam but if you honestly think sacking Butcher is the answer to this clubs problems then maybe you should go support some other team. First off we've just extended his contract so the pay-off to get him out would be pretty much beyond our means. The problems of this club are way above Terry Butcher. The club is struggling to operate within available budgets as it is so how can we be expected to attract better management and players than we already have. Besides, once the team has been picked for a match, its the players who are letting us all down. These are supposed to be SPL standard professional footballers. They should be going out onto any pitch and giving it their all. Playing for the club that pays their wages. Playing for the fans who shell out to support them. They should even be playing as if their future depended on it. These players are the ones who's heads you should call for. Not the management.

[Pele_Is_God]

To be honest I don't think we could attract a better manager than Butcher.

[tm4tj]

The natives are getting restless.

Not a good performance yesterday by all accounts but give the man a break. Another couple of months of this rubbish then maybe the time will come, but we have to be patient, it is frustrating but we will have to let it run it's course.

[BornCaley]

Are you " Bridge & a Castle in " in disguise. Seriously dude!

[marks]

Whilst I think it is far too early for Butcher out threads, I firmly believe that Butcher's contract extension was also far too early. So much for gelling the team.It looks as if TB and MM might just be thinking "We are set for two years now [they will get the full contract pay off if they fail] no point in trying anymore" perhaps they should have been put on 6 month rolling contracts like the players they put so much faith in.

Edited October 16, 2011 by marks

[tm4tj]

There is only one man that can save us now....................where is Wilsononourwing when you need him?

[alternative maryhill]

Has the team improved this season? No, gone backwards. I say Butcher & Malpas for the sack. A relegation battle is hardly exciting. It will be between us & Dunfermline. Horrible feeling that we will go down. Now is the time to change management before too late. Sack Butcher and we may just survive.

A relegation battle can be terrifically exciting! Being rooted to the bottom with several games to go with no hope of survival would be less exciting, however.

I just don't agree with your original point though. I think it's pretty obvious that Butcher has made some errors of judgement and that some of the new signings aren't quite cutting it, but sacking him would be no more than punishing him for these mistakes: what manager is going to come in and miraculously get this squad to start winning, bearing in mind that there would probably be limited money available for new signings in the transfer window and few players of sufficient quality willing to come to ICT? We know Butcher is a good motivator and also not afraid to make difficult decisions, and his first two-and-half seasons contained more positives than negatives, even though he didn't manage to keep us up. This season, so far, it doesn't seem to be working: some of the reasons might have been within Butcher's control, others clearly weren't. But how many teams in recent times have seen great success by panicking and punting the manager too early?

Edited October 16, 2011 by alternative maryhill

[Sorted]

To be honest I don't think we could attract a better manager than Butcher.

Interesting point.

Are you basing this on history, his media friendly persona or historical position as a playing legend?

Never been convinced about one and accept two as correct.

At this point I understand I am supposed to shout 'I BELIEVE' and I will be subjected to adulation, the world will be a happy place and we won't get relegated.

There are none so blind as those that will not see. Or something like that.

Who said fanatical fundamentalism was restricted to Islamic dictatorships? Some of the clearest examples post on CTO!

[marks]

I decided to have a look through some of the archived posts from the Brewster era, the similarities in our predicament are quite something. Manager blaming the players, injury list, board backing the manager, forum members split and splitting on support for the manager, manager not accepting responsibility himself, very close to being in a safe mid table position, manager had gotten rid of players the fans would rather have kept. A couple of differences worth noting back then we were not bottom after 11 games and the fans were more in favour of ditching the manager than keeping him.

Almost forgot one question which kept creeping up back then was "who will replace him?"

Edited October 16, 2011 by marks

[alternative maryhill]

I decided to have a look through some of the archived posts from the Brewster era, the similarities in our predicament are quite something. Manager blaming the players, injury list, board backing the manager, forum members split and splitting on support for the manager, manager not accepting responsibility himself, very close to being in a safe mid table position, manager had gotten rid of players the fans would rather have kept. A couple of differences worth noting back then we were not bottom after 11 games and the fans were more in favour of ditching the manager than keeping him.

Almost forgot one question which kept creeping up back then was "who will replace him?"

Much of this is true, but one difference (I think, anyway) is that to all appearances Brewster had lost the dressing room; or a large part of it at least. There were a lot of stories of excessive fining for petty misdemeanours, and of the assistant manager being widely resented. There's no evidence yet of Butcher having lost the respect or confidence of the players: if that was to happen, then maybe then it would be time to think about changing. I also think Butcher is more likely to accept responsibility himself than Brewster was: he's never shied away from making line-up changes or dropping or releasing players that he brought into the team. The biggest problem is that this is probably a poorer squad than the one Brewster had at the start of 2008-09, and for that Butcher must take some of the blame.

[Alex MacLeod]

To be honest I don't think we could attract a better manager than Butcher.

Interesting point.

Are you basing this on history, his media friendly persona or historical position as a playing legend?

Never been convinced about one and accept two as correct.

At this point I understand I am supposed to shout 'I BELIEVE' and I will be subjected to adulation, the world will be a happy place and we won't get relegated.

There are none so blind as those that will not see. Or something like that.

Who said fanatical fundamentalism was restricted to Islamic dictatorships? Some of the clearest examples post on CTO!

The interesting point is that Sorted interpreted the quote from PIG as saying there is no manager out there who is better than Butcher. I interpret it more as 'this club, due to its geographical location and financial limitations, would be unable to attract a better manager.

[marks]

I decided to have a look through some of the archived posts from the Brewster era, the similarities in our predicament are quite something. Manager blaming the players, injury list, board backing the manager, forum members split and splitting on support for the manager, manager not accepting responsibility himself, very close to being in a safe mid table position, manager had gotten rid of players the fans would rather have kept. A couple of differences worth noting back then we were not bottom after 11 games and the fans were more in favour of ditching the manager than keeping him.

Almost forgot one question which kept creeping up back then was "who will replace him?"

Much of this is true, but one difference (I think, anyway) is that to all appearances Brewster had lost the dressing room; or a large part of it at least. There were a lot of stories of excessive fining for petty misdemeanours, and of the assistant manager being widely resented. There's no evidence yet of Butcher having lost the respect or confidence of the players: if that was to happen, then maybe then it would be time to think about changing. I also think Butcher is more likely to accept responsibility himself than Brewster was: he's never shied away from making line-up changes or dropping or releasing players that he brought into the team. The biggest problem is that this is probably a poorer squad than the one Brewster had at the start of 2008-09, and for that Butcher must take some of the blame.

Good post, I will say that one point in the post I'd pick up on is that Butcher should shoulder the majority of the blame for the poor standard of our squad, by ditching a Munro he has left us with a mountain to climb.

Worth a read-

http://community.caleythistleonline.com/topic/8954-brewster/

[dead_ball_specialist]

Any team in this league would struggle with the injury list we've had. Every time I come back to this forum I see the same rubbish being posted by brand new accounts. Very suspicious.

Regeneration, in the British science fiction television series Doctor Who, is a biological ability exhibited by Time Lords, a race of fictional humanoids originating on the planet Gallifrey. This process allows a Time Lord who is old or mortally wounded to undergo a transformation into a new physical form and a somewhat different personality.

Alot of time lords on this forum.

[12th Man]

For years I have had the pleasure of winding up a pal who's a Dundee United fan about being better than them, his reply was its all about building for next season they were poor for a few years and they have done not too bad since.

So perhaps we need to start looking ahead, we dont quite have the right ingredients to make a gourmet dish this season so lets look at what we do have, what we can keep and what ingredients we can add to make various tasty meals next season.Maybe the under 19s will be coming into season by then.

A good chef will add to what he currently has to produce the best dish possible, we got rid of some cod last season in the belief we were getting some Sea Bass in and ended up with fish fingers.

[SMEE]

I decided to have a look through some of the archived posts from the Brewster era, the similarities in our predicament are quite something. Manager blaming the players, injury list, board backing the manager, forum members split and splitting on support for the manager, manager not accepting responsibility himself, very close to being in a safe mid table position, manager had gotten rid of players the fans would rather have kept. A couple of differences worth noting back then we were not bottom after 11 games and the fans were more in favour of ditching the manager than keeping him.

Almost forgot one question which kept creeping up back then was "who will replace him?"

Much of this is true, but one difference (I think, anyway) is that to all appearances Brewster had lost the dressing room; or a large part of it at least. There were a lot of stories of excessive fining for petty misdemeanours, and of the assistant manager being widely resented. There's no evidence yet of Butcher having lost the respect or confidence of the players: if that was to happen, then maybe then it would be time to think about changing. I also think Butcher is more likely to accept responsibility himself than Brewster was: he's never shied away from making line-up changes or dropping or releasing players that he brought into the team. The biggest problem is that this is probably a poorer squad than the one Brewster had at the start of 2008-09, and for that Butcher must take some of the blame.

Perhaps Grant Munro and Russel Duncan would have something to say about that ?

[AJS]

He's not going anywhere, the board have made their intentions clear by shelling out a new 2 year deal.

[alternative maryhill]

There's no evidence yet of Butcher having lost the respect or confidence of the players:

Perhaps Grant Munro and Russel Duncan would have something to say about that ?

I'm sure they would, and the way they were got rid of still upsets me, but I was referring to players still at the club. I've no idea at all how the manager is perceived by the players: I just haven't heard any of the sorts of stories that had begun to circulate about Brewster by this sort of time in 2008.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Spot on post by Mary Hill. My concern is that Butcher is beginning to gnaw at some of the squad but he is strong enuff to survive. Given the injuries he would have been given the season anyway. I always hoped that this would be a development season but that has fallen apart - but not only becos of the injuries but also due to a very complacent and amateurish pre season planning where we got totally caught out by the early start and then Terry tending to play peeple out of position and not give some their opportunity as to whether they can hack it or not.

My biggest concern is that Terry has been dragged in to the Boardroom Politics - despite his favourable contract I hope that he is wise enuff to sit on the fence.

[The Mantis]

We had the very same discussion two years ago when we were about 6th in div 1 and beaten twice by the cabbagemen.

I even said myself I expected (and hoped) that Butcher would see out the season and be on his way, but remember what happened.

I know one long serving player's dad who says Butcher rules by fear and is a bully to the players, hence Roy, Russell and Grant leaving. However there is no way this compares to Brew. I'm keeping the shoes tied up for now.

We got over Stratford and Eagles, let's hope we can get over this when the injured players start returning.

[Tug]

nope sorry dont agree

hypothetical for you

we lose to dunfirmline and you get your wish...butcher gets the boot...3-4 weeks later a new manager is appointed ( no saying who acts as caretaker)

new manager is given how long to take effect?? 6 -8 weeks perhaps?? so you are talking a further 3 months of disruption and inconsistency by which point i have every faith that the current management team will have got things clicking and we will be climbing the table as opposed to potentially starting new discussion about sacking the hypothetical new manage because he hasn,t managed to get the players performing as he wants in January February time when we really would not want to be looking at trying to secure a new manager to sort things out

[caley100]

Cant see Butcher getting the heave unless things go into complete meltdown, we would need all the muirfield groups dosh just to pay him off.

It was the same team that beat Midden that started yesterday, was it attitude that was wrong or were the players suffering from the last vestiges of the flu that hit TCS?

Someone mentioned in a post about playing for the shirt and thats a valid point, do the players need motivation avery time they start a game? if so then thats a problem, if they cant get themselves up for a positive start we are going to be heading up that little brown creek.

Anyway, still think Butcher fecked up pre-season, he delayed getting someone to replace Rooney when we all really knew he was offski daan sarf for more money, Tel obviously does not like Billy Mackay as he surely would have had him on before now, Aldred was another that did not turn into a TB yes man and he got shifted PDQ.

Butchers spell with us has been littered with slightly controversial decisions namely putting out teams that suited him personally rather than benefitting the club.

I still think he will sort it out, but he needs to play players in positions that they are strongest, Proc aint a central defender, Rossco is getting found out more and more often, we have the basis of a good defence in Piermayer,Esson and G Shinnie, lets build on that.

The other issue is scoring goals, we knew Tade was a 100% effort player but couldnt score in a free brothel, give Shane and Mackay a chance and see what we get, it cant get any worse....... can it?

Edited October 16, 2011 by caley100

[Ronaldo]

I would not sack TB for the majority of reasons already given and suspect if things turned pear shaped IMHO he would resign because he is that kind of guy.

For me, best case scenario is that we stutter on until the new year and then beg steal or borrow a striker.

Our main problem at the moment is the fact that we are getting no breaks because we are at the foot of the table and that's what happens to the bottom team.