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ICT -V- Dundee Utd : Matchday Thread


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Okay here`s the positive spin !! A few weeks ago we would have been delighted to be in 9th place by now. Some posts were hoping for 11th by 2012.

Also its really making the bottom 4 into a mini league , so coming 1st 2nd or 3rd will do me now..... we`ll just have to forget top 6 now !

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What a shower of bottlers.

When the second goal goes in everyone sits in the stands and waits to see the collapse.

This is little to do with the defense and much to do with the midfield.

1st goal - Our two central midfielders decide to run into each other and leave the defense exposed

2nd goal - Johny Hayes decides to play at being right back and tells Davis to stay forward and then can't be bothered to actually do the job of the right back - man of the match..........really!!

3rd goal - defnse left exposed once more.

We can pretend that we are going to click at some point and move away from danger, however on this display this is unlikely. Reminds me of the season when we got relegated. we effectively get ourselves safe with a single point needed from the last few games and then bottle it

Yes, this is immediately after the game and I am raw but the facts speak for themselves at the moment!

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No excuses we were **** we took our chances but we could of lost this game 4 or 5 2 easily

Hogg went off injured about 15 minutes in and after that the defence were all at sea

Davis was wasted at right back IMO cox should of went there

Tokely and golobart don't work together

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Sorry Ten4, I am normally one of the glass half full people on here but - based on radio commentary - really, REALLY, disappointed with this performance.

I await the comments of those who actually attended the game as they may be able to mitigate this defeat, but based on what I listened to, we were cruising then fell apart.

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Okay here`s the positive spin !! A few weeks ago we would have been delighted to be in 9th place by now. Some posts were hoping for 11th by 2012.

Also its really making the bottom 4 into a mini league , so coming 1st 2nd or 3rd will do me now..... we`ll just have to forget top 6 now !

ICT are 1 pt ahead of all the teams below us, all of whom have a game in hand. thats the reality. And we are fast approaching the time when points are required on a weekly basis, coz we are getting to the business end of the season

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That was an absolute nightmare.

1-0 at half-time flattered us completely - Dundee Utd had all the possession and we just sat back and hung on.

When the second goal went in I thought it might be our day...but what a pitiful collapse. Each of the three goals was a defensive catastrophe.

With the exception maybe of Hayes and Davis (at least up to his sending off), it was an abysmal performance. Utd's 4-5-1, with an extra man in central midfield, allowed them to dominate, and even when they went to 4-4-2 it seemed like we didn't know what to do. The management deserve plenty of blame - TB's decision to bring on Nick Ross, who touched the ball all of five times and gave the ball away every time, and to leave Tade on the bench for so long, beggars belief. We were desperately crying out for a holding midfield player like Gavin Morrison on the pitch. And I can't help feeling Butcher should have been concentrating on the game for the last 10 minutes, instead of spending the time shouting back at critical spectators.

The defence did all right in the first half, but imploded in the second - not helped by an appalling lack of protection from Cox and in particular Tansey who repeatedly gave the ball away and lost every single 50-50 challenge he attempted. Typical Golobart - rock-solid for the majority of the time, then slices a harmless cross-shot into his own net under no pressure.

As for Foran, well, our captain plumbs new depths in the quality of his performances every time I see him. Like Tansey, he was a liability today. He's too slow, he can't win headers (he keeps trying to pretend he's being pushed but the ref today wasn't falling for it) and he offers his full-back no protection. With Hayes double-teamed most of the time, McKay is left with only scraps to feed on.

We've had some rotten performances this season - Aberdeen away, Dunfermline at home - but this one was as bad as any. And without Hogg, I'm not sure we're going to improve our defending any time soon.

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That was an absolute nightmare.

1-0 at half-time flattered us completely - Dundee Utd had all the possession and we just sat back and hung on.

When the second goal went in I thought it might be our day...but what a pitiful collapse. Each of the three goals was a defensive catastrophe.

With the exception maybe of Hayes and Davis (at least up to his sending off), it was an abysmal performance. Utd's 4-5-1, with an extra man in central midfield, allowed them to dominate, and even when they went to 4-4-2 it seemed like we didn't know what to do. The management deserve plenty of blame - TB's decision to bring on Nick Ross, who touched the ball all of five times and gave the ball away every time, and to leave Tade on the bench for so long, beggars belief. We were desperately crying out for a holding midfield player like Gavin Morrison on the pitch. And I can't help feeling Butcher should have been concentrating on the game for the last 10 minutes, instead of spending the time shouting back at critical spectators.

The defence did all right in the first half, but imploded in the second - not helped by an appalling lack of protection from Cox and in particular Tansey who repeatedly gave the ball away and lost every single 50-50 challenge he attempted. Typical Golobart - rock-solid for the majority of the time, then slices a harmless cross-shot into his own net under no pressure.

As for Foran, well, our captain plumbs new depths in the quality of his performances every time I see him. Like Tansey, he was a liability today. He's too slow, he can't win headers (he keeps trying to pretend he's being pushed but the ref today wasn't falling for it) and he offers his full-back no protection. With Hayes double-teamed most of the time, McKay is left with only scraps to feed on.

We've had some rotten performances this season - Aberdeen away, Dunfermline at home - but this one was as bad as any. And without Hogg, I'm not sure we're going to improve our defending any time soon.

An excellent summation of a pitiful display :clapping:

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First time this season that I have left a game feeling angry and disappointed.

We owned Dundee Utd in the first half. Not looked at any of the stats yet, but I would say we had about 70% of the possession. Even after losing Hogg we seemed to reshape quite quickly and maintain control of the game.

Came out all guns blazing in the second half and got a second goal....that's when it all went wrong. The team obviously thought it was a case of "job done" and switched off. Utd pulled a goal back, panic set in and we tried to put everyone behind the ball which only resulted in us falling all over each other. Utd got the second goal and the heads went down...from there on in we were never going to win the game.

Foran resorted to type and it became everyone elses fault bar his. As captain he should be trying to rally the team, not kick them while they are down. I wasn't in the Main Stand today, but it looked like even Butcher was more interested in having a pop at the fans behind him than sorting out what was happening on the pitch.

Dundee Utd will travel back down the road thinking all their Christmases have come at once after being gifted 3 points in such a manner.

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Foran must be dropped

He hase beem poor all season one goal so far is a dreadful return

Butcher must take responsibility for some very poor decisions on subs

Time for a change of management?

Edited by Alex MacLeod
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The irritating thing for me, is it seems these days, some of the decisions seem more for the benefit of Butcher's ego than for the team. How Foran gets a game, never mind stay on the pitch is beyond me. He was appalling today. The tactics weren't just wrong either - they were just plain stupid. Long ball after long ball towards a man of 5"7 - it beggars belief that Butcher even thought of that in the first place. Why was Tade on so late? In fact, why didn't he start? Baffling.

Also, what was the deal with those substitutions? Davis into right back was a waste - why not put Cox straight in there? And where was Piermayr? Also, Dundee United score and everyone in the ground knows that this is the time to put Tade on. What does Butcher do? Bring on none other than another of his favourites, "wonderboy" Nick Ross, who contributed a grand total of zero to the game. Foran should have gone off - he's way off form and his antics don't exactly look like captain material to me.

Sadly though, Butcher's ego won't allow for that. That played a big part in getting relegated in 2009 (the whole Fraser/Esson saga being the main example), and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it will relegate this team again.

Edited by Renegade
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have to say united today were imense. pace,power,running, crisp passing. after our first goal it was united attack after attack, although i must say with all their possesion the did not really threaten our goal. best away team i have seen since kilmarnock totally outplayed us a couple of seasons ago on a wednesday night to win 3-1 (the one was a consolation at the end)

2nd half we score with first opportunity and i am sitting there wondering " how are we 2-0 up", anyway who cares thats football some times

then step forward johnny russell.

we could not handle their pace and when we had the ball we always seemed to be trying to play the killer pass and were just conceding again and again to united.

today was like watching us when we were a 3rd division team playing the old firm. concede,defend,concede, defend etc,etc. it was only a matter of time before they scored

why cant we play passes like all the other teams in the league, holding on to the ball making the other team chase.

i thought the man of the match was their left winger.

PLEASE DONT TELL ME HE IS THE SAME MACKAY-STEVEN WE HAD ON TRIAL AND DID'NT OFFER A CONTRACT TO.

i thought when were 2-0 tel may have settled for this and loaded the midfield. i did not expect him to introduce nick ross who added zero instead of a more robust player.

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I'm still trying to understand that one. How we were not three up by half time is beyond me. We weren't that good, and yet United still had no answer to us. McKay and Shinnie (from the Hayes free kick) could have both added to the score before McKay did and we would have been cruising. However, as soon as United got one back we struggled, although it was the second that killed us. Even then, it could have been different had Golobart netted his header just after. Contrary to what others are saying, I thought Roman Golobart had a great game today. He held the defence together when Hogg went off and he had no choice but to go for the ball when he got the OG. Russell was waiting behind him, and he had been lost by Tokely. The cross from Armstrong should never have got there, but Hayes gave up the chase on that one. I'd agree that there have to be changes - Ryan Esson needs a rest, he's not half the commanding prescence he was last year - and a back line of Piermayer, Meekings, Golobart and Gilet might be on the cards here, despite an utter lack of experience. Tokes was ripped to pieces in the second half to a degree where it was quite painful to watch. The midfield were the most culpable, in that Tansey lost the ball far too often and Cox fitted in just like a man who had been out for a good while. Foran simply needs rested in the same way as Esson does. Nick Ross coming on was baffling. United had shown how to react to this type of game, willo flood being as effective as stevie wonder against a powerful ICT unit. The game changed utterly when Russell came on to match that, and what did we do? bring on our own version of flood. There is something worrying in this team in that there seems to be an inability to deal with any kind of adversity on the pitch. When it goes wrong, the heads go down and TBH you could see us losing as soon as they scored. we really are that fragile. Time to go for broke next week Mr. Butcher, after all we are expected to get nothing out of the game. We need something before we face Aberdeen on Christmas Eve in a game that now becomes massive, and which I have no great confidence that we can win.

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I believe we did offer a contract to Mackay-Steven but he wanted too much for someone very injury prone, who couldn't even play in all of our friendly matches. IIRC, he had to come off in the only one he played due to injury. It's a convenient excuse but no other SPL team (or SFL1) took a chance on him either at that time. Can't blame ICT for not offering a colossal contract for someone who looked like playing a game a month.

It's the same old story. IF we either had Hogg fit for the season, or Munro staying, we wouldn't be having these problems. Someone like John Potter would have been a good player (freed by Saints to sign for Dunfermline). It's a terrible excuse but we really have been unlucky with injuries, refereeing decisions and, today, United scoring with every shot on goal. It's tough to cope with all of these factors but what can we do?

Not overly worried about teams below us and their games in hand. They aren't all going to win them. To have a good season, all we need are key players back and staying fit. It's not easy but without a budget to spend, it's going to be a struggle if that doesn't happen.

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I believe we did offer a contract to Mackay-Steven but he wanted too much for someone very injury prone, who couldn't even play in all of our friendly matches. IIRC, he had to come off in the only one he played due to injury. It's a convenient excuse but no other SPL team (or SFL1) took a chance on him either at that time. Can't blame ICT for not offering a colossal contract for someone who looked like playing a game a month.

He played the first half in a friendly against Clach at Grant Street and then came off (supposedly injured at half time) - he was brilliant in that first half by the way, in fact I seem to remember Butcher saying that he could push Hayes for a place. He was then in the squad for another friendly later that week (against Forres IIRC) and got injured in the warm-up. The story of his career up to that point I believe. It's a shame he never signed cause I've always thought he was a great player.

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Hayes man of the match was a disgrace. Never bothered his ar*e after scoring and laying on the second. He cost us big time by not tracking back and didn't look at all interested after 60 minutes played.

Why on earth did Butcher expose Davies, who had been booked earlier, by putting him at full back? He was a cert to be sent off. Ridiculous decison when Piermiyr is on the bench.

Foran is, and was today, absolutely hopeless, he cannot win a ball in the air, he cannot hold a ball, he cannot find a man with a pass, he cannot get a shot on target, he has no pace.............., he mumps and moans all game ...............

Finally Butcher shouting at unhappy fans is totally unacceptable, he is massively well paid compared to most of the fans sitting in the stands, if he can't stick it then tough, move on, all talk and no action.

Loosing over 2 goals per game is a complete joke.

Dundee United deserved to win because they wanted it and we didn't, simples

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Yeh TB at his usual, everyone's fault but his. Fact is he made a massive error today in putting Davies at full back and he knows it. After Hogg wnet off, massive bad luck for us again, we lost the midfield battle big time. We got really lucky getting the second goal when we did even although it was a great goal and then we capitulated.

Butcher guilty, despite what he said he had plenty options and he picked the worst.

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so when davis had possibly the best first 15 minutes id seen him play for us he decides to move him to right back instead of cox?? im sorry i usually side with butcher on most things but have to disagree on this im certai moving cox there would of been the better decision

i usually feel the players let the manager down but today i think butcher let everyone down for the first time in a long time subs made no sense

not to say the players played no part in this loss but it wasnt 100% their fault for once

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Ridiculous decison when Piermiyr is on the bench.

He wasn't. He's supposedly back from injury, but why he wasn't on the bench I don't know.

interesting to hear butcher being critical of the fans on the bbc.... im sure it sounds like he is mentioning the rb position.

near the end

What I found strange is he says "I didn't want to take Davis out of midfield, but who do we play at right-back? Graeme Shinnie?"

Is he not aware that the man he brought on, Lee Cox can play at right back?

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Yeh TB at his usual, everyone's fault but his. Fact is he made a massive error today in putting Davies at full back and he knows it. After Hogg wnet off, massive bad luck for us again, we lost the midfield battle big time. We got really lucky getting the second goal when we did even although it was a great goal and then we capitulated.

Butcher guilty, despite what he said he had plenty options and he picked the worst.

Yep, I'd have more respect for the guy if he could hold his hands up and say I've fecked up (not only about this), I'm the gaffer the buck stops at me and I've made some bad errors in judgement and this is what I'm gonna do to try and make things right. It would appear though that his ego will not allow this.

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