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ICT -V- Dundee Utd : Matchday Thread


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Regardless of who was on the bench, TB is becoming a broken record. He is an ex International defender who cannot organise a defence as a Manager. It is now HIS team, no excuses Terry. What on earth do these blokes do all week?

REDEMPTION: BEAT ABERDEEN ......PLEASE

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Would love to see our team finish with 11 men on the pitch sometime. I've been to a few home games this season and I am yet to see our team finish without someone being sent off.

Inspired substitution by Houston today. The game changed as soon as Russell replaced Flood. United had been toothless up to that point and our defence were having an easy ride. After that our defence buckled and were ripped apart at will by United's attack. We were defending far too deep.

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I am sorry, the buck stops with the manager.

He is a clever operator who has many of the fans and the media eating out of his hand. But the table or the goals against record does not lie.

We have a management team who were international defenders, but we could not keep a clean sheet against 11 traffic cones!

I will continue to back them and the team, but lets cut out the nonsense and stop thinking we are in a false position.

At the moment we "talk" a great game, sadly the manager or the players don't back it up.

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I am sorry, the buck stops with the manager.

He is a clever operator who has many of the fans and the media eating out of his hand. But the table or the goals against record does not lie.

We have a management team who were international defenders, but we could not keep a clean sheet against 11 traffic cones!

I will continue to back them and the team, but lets cut out the nonsense and stop thinking we are in a false position.

At the moment we "talk" a great game, sadly the manager or the players don't back it up.

Consider the bigger picture. We're working on arguably the smallest budget in the SPL, with crowds of around 3k at each home game. Time for local businesses who do well financially from us being in the SPL to help out and keep us there.

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Maybe some of the chickens that were released before the season started are now coming home to roost.

e.g. Gutting the team and removing virtually all of the steadying older team members to replace them with individually talented, but very young and inexperienced, ones is not going to succeed and never was likely to.

Either that or this is turning out to be our one-season-in-a-decade-nightmare where everything goes wrong and nothing that is done to remedy matters solves the challenges.

But if the team makeup was not fragile and backed up by experience would that happen?

Unfortunately, it is also true that a good team makes it's own luck, and overcomes adversity more readily, How? By digging deeper.

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Surely shinnie who is a full back would have been a better choice than Davis even if he does normally play on the left. Any of these would have Been better

Tokely golobart gillet shinnie

Cox golobart tokely gillet

Shinnie golobart tokely gillet

Edited by ICTPAISLEY
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What I find a little baffling about the first half substitution, is Butcher makes far more changes than were necessary. He obviously has to make one change (Hogg comes off), so there's one. He moves Tokely into centre-back that's two and moves Davis out of the midfield and into full back. That's three changes. Perhaps it could've been better had he made more of a "like-for-like" change. Hogg comes off for Graeme Shinnie and Gillet moves to centre-back. Surely that would have been far better. That's all defenders in the defensive line, Tokely stays in his strongest position, Gillet moves to a position where he can play (and apparently did so many times for Barnet) and Graeme Shinnie takes his natural position - that leaves the team with far less disruption and keeps Davis in his strongest position - the midfield. Surely that would've made more sense, but going by Butcher's post-match comments, it never even crossed his mind!

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Not even putting Piermayr on the bench (assuming he is fit) was a massive blunder. How much defensive cover do we have that TB could afford to leave him out? The second half yesterday brought back memories of the last days of Brewster the way we played. Not saying we're at that stage yet but the scary thing is we probably had a better defence then.

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:notlistening: Probably the most disappointed afternoons football ever.

I thought we were in a false position even after going 2-0 ahead. We lacked the bite and crispness that United had, although Esson was underworked. Unfortunately I could see this coming after fifteen minutes when we failed to assert ourselves on United and they buzzed about the park to good effect. I have no qualms about the result, United were the better side, I do have a qualm or two about the manner in which we capitulated, totally handing the initiative to the Arabs and they gleefully accepted, running our Davisless midfield ragged and United were able to launch attack after attack on our bewildered back four who ultimately caved in in dramatic fashion.

To be frank.........Butcher should take the blame for this. Davis moving to full back was okish, but the midfield were then bereft of ideas. Nick Ross needs to go on loan and toughen up. He is not a match winner, never will be. That is not a criticism of young Nick, but he was placed into a situation by Butcher who has his head up his erse when it comes to loyalty. It's points we need Terry, and you need to look long and hard at some of these decisions and say sorry, I ballsed it up.

From being one goal short of climbing above United in the league to absolute frustation and the depths of despair we had it all yesterday...........and it was fekkin freezin. :notlistening:

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I decided to take a day to think about what i have to say because i was in need of calming down after what i witnessed yesterday.

The confidence in this team is as fragile as it has ever been. Never in my entire life have i seen an ICT team crumble like a freakin digestive as that team did yesterday. At 2-0 i thought we had really turned the corner and were maybe going to push on for more but how stupid was i? Johnny Russell came on and instantly dominated the game bringing it back for United and after that the rest of the game is just a blur. Golobart's OG was a howler yes but Tokely should never have given the ball as easily as he did and Gillet shouldve stood stronger against Russell for the 3rd, yet again individual slackness and lack of confidence has cost us.

In terms of tactics i would say Butcher got it wrong. Ive heard that Piermayr was unfit so if thats the case nothing can be done. But putting Davis at right back was the wrong move. Especially against Mackay-Steven who spent the whole game running round him and ultimately getting him sent off. Cox for me would have faired better at right back or Shinnie on and shifting Gillet to center back.

The goals were well taken especially Billy McKay's, a wonderful swerving header and if he carries on producing things like that Butcher may well have a decision to make on how to accompany Tade.

There is no question about it though, our confidence is as low as it could be imo, even after picking up results we seem to struggle when up against it in games and we dont seem to cope under pressure. This has to be addressed and fast if we are to have any chance of improving.

Hogg's injury looked a nasty one. Its ashame becuase he has never had a chance to get to full fitness or form and if he is out for the season imo he would be a massive loss to the defence. Regardless of his length of time out we need at least 1 new defender in January, one of experience and composure if possible, i think its pretty clear though that our defence is not working no matter what is done to change it (which may be a problem in itself). But the quality and depth in quality is defnitely not good enough.

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The irritating thing for me, is it seems these days, some of the decisions seem more for the benefit of Butcher's ego than for the team. How Foran gets a game, never mind stay on the pitch is beyond me. He was appalling today. The tactics weren't just wrong either - they were just plain stupid. Long ball after long ball towards a man of 5"7 - it beggars belief that Butcher even thought of that in the first place. Why was Tade on so late? In fact, why didn't he start? Baffling.

Also, what was the deal with those substitutions? Davis into right back was a waste - why not put Cox straight in there? And where was Piermayr? Also, Dundee United score and everyone in the ground knows that this is the time to put Tade on. What does Butcher do? Bring on none other than another of his favourites, "wonderboy" Nick Ross, who contributed a grand total of zero to the game. Foran should have gone off - he's way off form and his antics don't exactly look like captain material to me.

Sadly though, Butcher's ego won't allow for that. That played a big part in getting relegated in 2009 (the whole Fraser/Esson saga being the main example), and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that it will relegate this team again.

Can I initially stress that Renegade is not a IHE alias !! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: But how the feck does he get green dots fer saying what I have been alluding to fer months ?? :rolleyes:

Wholly agree with all of the post - I wasnt at the game but PLEASE tell me that McKay wasnt the lone striker.

Lets just add that Houston sussed us and changed the Arab system and saw that the introduction of Russell would tear us apart.

Even the "blinded loyal" are having their eyes opened.

And yet it is not all doom and gloom as wew are still in the mix and fortunately not falling behind at the bottom - but the transfer window may decide our fate.

Togetherness is borne out of desire to play for the shirt, dressing room and team bonding - have we got that ?

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Yesterday was like the Challenge Cup Final debacle all over again. For me the biggest weakness in our team is a lack of defensive cover from midfield. The best anchor man in our squad (imo) is Gavin Morrison. I would put him in as the holding midfielder next week to help support our back 4. Also agree with shouts to give Jonny Tuffey a start. Esson shouldn't be made the scapegoat for our shocking goals against tally, but his performances this season haven't been up to his usual standards. Tuffey deserves a chance.

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Well here I feckin go again - this was always going to be a consolidation season and one where we should have prioritised the introduction of the likes of the Shinnie's, Ross, Morrison and Sutherland - plus a YOUNG central defender on a contract alongside a journeyman central defender - even keeping Munro fer at least another season - as a layer fer the future. Instead we have gone the way of loan signings in desperation.

And I know feckin narcissism when I see it, :irritated:

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Man of the match for me was Russell.

What went wrong ? Pass.

We just couldnt pass,I hope Davis stays because the midfield disappeared when he went to RB and things deteriorated when Russell came on (our own Russeldeniho was at the match today too,wonder what his views are)

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If Duncan was still up to it, he would be getting more matches with Ross County. Munro's a mistake for sure but Russell wouldn't have made that big a difference. A fit Cox or Jones is a better bet. Naturally, they're not fit but Duncan's just as likely to be in plaster as anyone else. Jones? Well, he has a history...

Ross got a lot of plaudits earlier on (as did G.Shinnie) and was a certain starter. They both had a bit of a loss of form but they'll both be back soon I'm sure. Both worthy of a place in the squad over the course of a season.

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i have always said on this forum that we are the worst " footballing " side in the spl. that includes all seaons we have been in it.

we cannot keep the ball for more that 3-4 passes before loosing possesion.

even when munro was playing we would pass about our back line going nowhere only for him to play a howitser pass over everyones head into touch.

yesterday we could hardly string a pass together. if we did manage it our forwards cannot/ struggle to hold the ball up. we were conceding possesion to du just about every time we tried to pass

united on the other hand were a joy to watch.. crisp passing, movement off the ball. oh how i wish after yesterday mackay-steven played for us.

wont even mention russel's contribution when he came on.

how often this season have we lost the ball around the half way line or further forward that resulted in a goal for the opposition, when we should have been "seeing" the game out.

eg dunfrmline away 3rd goal 3-3 last few seconds, hibs at home 0-1 last few seconds, dunfermline penalty at home 1-1 last couple of minutes etc,etc

we are at our most effective when he hit on the counter with speed. that usually means only 3-4 players are involved.

even dunfermline at our place stroked the ball about better than us.

we need at this time to be more solid in middle of park. united 5 yesterday overran us. would have thought after going 2 up tel would have taken on morrison for shinnie and tade for mackay (to give us an out ball/ run the united defence) instead of wave after wave on united attacks.

watched the game on alba last week against st mirren. if i was not an inverness supporter would have switched to strictly come dancing after 10 mins, thats how bad a spectacle the game was. could not imagine many nuetrals watching on a saturday night

from this site last week used the link to the players after match comments. could not believe the top 6 comments.

until yesterday....stats dont lie, no team has let in more goals than us.

yet only celtic, rangers and kilmarnock have scored more

bit of a clue there to our problem

we need to be realistic, survival is our aim every year.

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Guest Mahonio

Foran must be dropped

He hase beem poor all season one goal so far is a dreadful return

Butcher must take responsibility for some very poor decisions on subs

Time for a change of management?

Don't be stupid!! I was very critical of Butcher as some people will know very well. Once i had been to Celtic game last month, my opinion of him changed, its funny that, guys always say not to be critical unless you have been to matches this season and after that game, i can understand why.

Its time to stick by the team and management :twothumbsup: , good times do lie ahead, have faith guys :biggrin:.

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Just watched the highlights on BBC, their three goals were of interest as i canna see much from the bridge end.

The first was preventable, someone should have taken the player out long before he got near the box.. counted 4 missed tackles before the ball broke kindly for Russell to touch it past Esson( who was not too clever today) Gillet was slow to react there.

The second was a farce.. should Esson have shouted to Golly?

The third was a forkup from start to finish, Rossco's poor clearance( one of many aimless headers) left him in the middle of feckin nowhere, a smack upfield from Rankin and Russell was away, now Gillet should have done better but for me Ryan was way too far off his line and the poor shot slid under his body when had he stuck a foot out he could have stopped it no prob, so all in all unlucky/poor defending/and a pretty severe lack of confindence caused our downfall yesterday.

But some players have to look at themselves in the next week or two and ask whether they are giving their all for ICT, Foran/Tansey were a waste of space and putting our best midfielder into right back was criminal.

The Hogg incident was just typical of our luck this season, just hope bad luck affects Dunfermline as well!!

Edited by tm4tj
tsk tsk
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Just watched the highlights on BBC, their three goals were of interest as i canna see much from the bridge end.

The first was preventable, someone should have taken the player out long before he got near the box.. counted 4 missed tackles before the ball broke kindly for Russell to touch it past Esson( who was not too clever today) Gillet was slow to react there.

The second was a farce.. should Esson have shouted to Golly?

The third was a fork up from start to finish, Rossco's poor clearance( one of many aimless headers) left him in the middle of feckin nowhere, a smack upfield from Rankin and Russell was away, now Gillet should have done better but for me Ryan was way too far off his line and the poor shot slid under his body when had he stuck a foot out he could have stopped it no prob, so all in all unlucky/poor defending/and a pretty severe lack of confindence caused our downfall yesterday.

But some players have to look at themselves in the next week or two and ask whether they are giving their all for ICT, Foran/Tansey were a waste of space and putting our best midfielder into right back was criminal.

The Hogg incident was just typical of our luck this season, just hope bad luck affects Dunfermline as well!!

:tuttut: language timothy

Edited by tm4tj
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