Your Scotland....

[Action Man]

Divorce..separation..border control..passports. health. immigration..education..crime.........................

Don't make me laugh....( it makes me want to cry )

Is anyone else pi**ing themselves laughing at the pathetic antics of the London government in what can only be described as a poor attempt at throwing the growing tide of support for a proper debate on Independance of it's stride? We are a seperate country, we have a different culture, let's get on without interference from a government stuck in stupid arena's in which they have always lost.

Lets all work for a vibrant, all encompassing, forward looking, ......................SCOTLAND.

[Guest donmac298]

Despite all the rubbish that is being spouted by the London government you only have to ask any of them the following question and none of them will give you an honest answer:

If Scotland is such a burden to England why are you so deperate to hold on to us?

[Scotty]

It may not have been debated as long as in Scotland, but there has been a debate raging about this in Canada for years ... just substitute the word Quebec for Scotland. Last Week, Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper headed the nationalists off at the pass by putting forward a proposal to "recognise Quebec as a nation within a united Canada" ....

My heart says that I would love to see an independent Scotland, but is it workable ? I vaguely remember taking an interest in politics back in the heyday when the SNP were very strong. All sorts of claims were made that Scotland would be in the top 10 economies in the world due primarily to oil revenues, but once that is gone, what is left ? Agriculture? Fishing? Fish Farming? Tourism ? Call Centres? .... (although I am sure that Scots as a traditionally resourceful people would find something)

However, even if Scotland were fully independent of the United Kingdom, we would probably just apply to join the EU and instead of being ruled by London with a puppet parliament in Edinburgh have barmy rules imposed on us from Brussels (at least Westminster does manage to filter out some of the dafter ones !) ..... At the end of the day, no member nation of the EU is truly independent but membership does does negate some of the anti-independence rhetoric that might be thrown up as EU citizens have rights in all member countries.

[Alex MacLeod]

All the various anti-SNP comments that were spouted in Oban last week just shows how worried Jack and his cronies are about the looming elections.

High income to Westminster from North Sea oil. New fields being developed. Advances in technology boosting production from existing older fields. Guaranteed production for at least the next thirty to forty years. Development into the Atlantic frontier. Thats what the southerners are worried about.

Norway is a country of similar size and population to Scotland. They survive very well. Lower taxation, better conditions for parents and pensioners, better health care etc. Admittedly they have steered clear of the EEC. Eire, one of the fastest developing economies in Europe. Slightly higher income tax but no other sneaky hidden taxes. Those two countries are surviving very well. Why shouldn't we.

[Guest donmac298]

Scotty, what state do you think England would be in without the oil revenues?

[Johnboy]

This debate could run & run.... Just as Margaret Thatcher's poll tax helped create a devolved parliament for Scotland, Blair's folly in Iraq could very well lead to full independence for Scotland....

The protests from the top brass at the Scottish Labour Party conference were absolutely ludicrous... Do they really think the electorate are that gullible? To argue that those with relations in England will face all manner of problems with border posts etc, is a complete nonsense.

Could it be financially viable? I'm quite sure Alex Salmond & Nicola Sturgeon will present a very powerful case for it. Watch that space....

One thing is certain... we would not need to be dragged into another very costly, unneccessary and illegal war, at the behest of another tinpot American dictator again.....

[The Mantis]

You forgot the amber nectar Scotty, which is the UK's biggest export apparently.

But really- what do you mean "is it workable?"

This is what happens after 300 years of negative propaganda. Nobody has any doubts but ourselves (which I suppose is quite healthy in a perverse sort of way...

What have Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand, Belgium, etc, etc, etc got that we haven't?

The fact is, whatever you think of the SNP (and I don't have much of a regard for the party and its people, compared to the 70s), Labour have got into a knot and are losing the intellectual argument against independence, or 'divorce' or 'separation' as they call it. When Blair was forced into devolution by the will of the Scottish people (and even then tried a referendum which it was hoped would fail), Scottish Labour were forced to spout about how the SNP would try to 'wreck the parliament'.

What a dim idea that was. If the parliament was seen to work, obviously Scots would want more of it.

So George Robertson's perception of devolution as something to 'kill nationalism stone dead' was completely wrong.

The only reason Labour want to hold on to Scotland is, they'll never win an election in England without us. The only reason the British establishment want to hang on to Scotland is a strategic one, ie the Americans would have nowhere to keep their missiles and control the North Atlantic (and don't forget all the Scots who have been happy to sign up for the British forces, out of proportion to their population). So if independence comes closer, look for the CIA getting involved and bumping off a few of our top people.

Whatever happened to Willie Macrae I wonder?

[Johnboy]

I agree with much of that, Mantis.... but Labour won the 2001 election with such a huge majority they wouldn't (for once) have needed to rely on the Scottish vote...

At the last election they lost all the substantial muslim vote in Engerlandshire, and there isn't much sign of them winning that back in the near future....

I would say the only thing that might stand in the way of an SNP victory at the May election would be Blair resigning before it takes place.....

[Scotty]

You forgot the amber nectar Scotty, which is the UK's biggest export apparently.

I knew I was missing something when I typed my comment .....

What have Denmark, Finland, Norway, Ireland, Sweden, Netherlands, New Zealand, Belgium, etc, etc, etc got that we haven't?

I cant speak for most of those countries, but having spent a little time in both Denmark and Sweden this summer, I can tell you there is one thing they do have that I think most Scots would baulk at and that is the level of taxation. Its a different mindset, as Swedes and Danes seem reasonably happy with paying high taxes as their social programs, education etc are all very well funded, but would you pay twice for your car they way they do in Denmark ? I was shocked when, after commenting on the sheer number of pushbikes lining the pavements I was told that the tax level on a new car purchase is 100%

Dont get me wrong, as i said earlier, in my heart I would like to see an independent Scotland within my lifetime, even though i dont currently live there, but my head keeps thinking of the pitfalls that such a move could bring. 300 years of negative propoganda ? perhaps. But also 40 years of being kicked in the teeth by politicians of all flavours ..... I will watch the debate with interest.

[Johnboy]

I was shocked when, after commenting on the sheer number of pushbikes lining the pavements I was told that the tax level on a new car purchase is 100%

[Kingsmills]

Why should Scotland, uniquely among the prosperous small nations of western Europe, be in peril from deciding our own affairs and taking our place, with a view to representing our own interests, at the various Europpean institutions ?

For senior labour officials and UK ministers to suggest otherwise is patronising and downright insulting. What are they affraid of ?

[Johnboy]

Well..... The labour top brass really do have their fingers on the pulse of political opinion in Scotland...

Since their attack on the SNP at the weekend by Blair, Brown & Reid, the latest opinion poll published in today's Herald puts the SNP a futher 5 points ahead..... :015: :015: :015:

[Heilandee]

I,m not a particularly political animal,but dislike extremism at either end of the spectrum so spose that makes me a bit of a liberal.Not sure that Independance would enhance qaulity of life for Scots and that costs involved would i,m sure be eyewatering, haveing seen devolution costs spiral out of sight.We can already see costs involved in appeasing nationalistic demands with the nonsense of Gaelic roadsigns throughout the highlands and now the building of a purpose built Gaelic medium school in Inverness

:hiding01:

[Action Man]

A majority of Scots want independance, a majority of English want an independant England, can somone tell me just who this government actually represents. Phoney Blair yesterday apologised for slavery which allegedly ended 200 years ago. Will it be 200 years before another PM apologises for this country's activities in Iraq today?

[caley100]

' was told that the tax level on a new car purchase is 100%'

Probably because Denmark has no car industry, so every new car has to be imported.

The last time i was in New Zealand i could not believe the amount of 'old'cars still on the go, then i was told of the import tax.

Scotland would probably come into the same bracket.

[Guest donmac298]

dee, don't knock the Gaelic roadsigns - the way things are going, in the not too distant future the roadsigns could be in Urdu.  It couldn't happen in Scotland? - that's what the people in Leicester thought about their city.

[The Mantis]

Ach, I don't need a car anyway, I just cadge a lift off Naelifts  :014:

[Kingsmills]

A few more talented hard working Urdu speakers would be a welcome addition to the Highland landscape and enhance cultural diversity.

That hopefully, is the difference between inclusive and outward looking Scottish nationalism and the dangerous zenophobic British variety.

[Action Man]

I have to disagree with HD a bit on this one, the Gaelic signs are not a nationlistic demand, simply a way of preserving our culture for future generations. Worth it for the songs alone.

Donmac298 is taking this debate into dangerous waters, this is not about Leicester and its migrant population, this is about the people of Scotland being given the opportunity to forge their own future, and all that entails. Yes the question of migration will come into that equation but that will be for the people of Scotland to decide, not a failing government in London which has different needs to Scotland.

Kingsmills... :025:

[Scotty]

found this interesting snippet about Denmark and taxes .......

Denmark is the master of tax. According to international statistics, Denmark has the highest overall taxation in the world. The following is a selection of the taxes:

    * A complex system of income taxes takes up to about 70% of peoples' salaries.

    * Plundering of personal pension funds. One of the underlying principles is that the funds are allowed to grow with the inflation plus 2-3%. Any revenue above that is confiscated as tax. In fact, the calculations are so complex that it's impossible for anyone to verify them.

    * The Value Added Tax is the highest in the European Union with 25% on all products and services, food and children's articles included.

    * Excise duties ("punktafgifter") add some extra tax to specific products like alcohol, tobacco, chocolate, soft drinks, packaging, matches and petrol. The excise duty is calculated on the goods and the VAT, resulting in a system where one pays tax on tax.

    * Car registration tax of 180% of the car and the VAT (the first 45.000 kr. are taxed "only" at 90%, and there are deductions for some safety equipment). Note that this includes a "tax tax" because the registration tax is also calculated on the VAT.

    * Annual road tax.

    * Tax on car insurance.

    * Fuel tax.

    * Energy taxes.

    * Green taxes.

    * Driving licence tax.

    * The European Union's most expensive television licence of 1894 kr. a year.

    * Various stamp duties, such as 600 kr. for a passport.

    * Tax on the number plates for cars of about 1200 kr.

    * Full income tax on all savings interests and capital gains. Many countries have taxfree schemes to encourage individual savings. Not Denmark.

    * Property tax.

    * Another tax on owned property. This used to be called tax of lejeværdi af egen bolig (letting value of own habitation). The communist principle behind it was that the habitation represents a potential taxable letting income. The letting value was calculated on a progressive scale from 2.5% to 7.5% of the public valuation. The letting value was added to the personal income before income tax was calculated. Thus, one paid tax of an income one never had. The principles have now been changed in order to hide the fraudulent nature of this tax. This tax is due even on properties abroad owned by residents of Denmark, and even if such properties abroad are already taxed in the country where they are.

    * Inheritance tax.

    * Emigration tax.

[Action Man]

Just reading that was taxing Scotty. Sounded more Conservative than communist :023:

The point being missed with all this talk about other countries is that these small wealthy countries have the choice to pick how they want to be governed, we don't! There will always be taxes, it is how they are gathered and distributed that is the key to being a socially inclusive country. how much more do we waste on Trident and Nuclear stations? ( I do however like the idea of dumping all our waste in england! ) :022: Jacky boy got at least that bit right!

[The Mantis]

OK, OK strike Denmark off the list FFS  :015: :015: :015: :015: :015:

Seriously though, you have to put taxes into perspective with the standard of living. The Norwegians, apparently, can afford to buy beer at £7 a pint, so it doesn't bother them, just puts off the tourists. Presumably the Danes can afford the taxes, whether or not they have the mindset you mention. I bet they don't all emigrate and have a falling population as we do- another thing I put squarely at the door of Westminster.

If they can't preside over a nation with a thriving economy and population after 300 years, it's time to move over.

They've had no problem getting the SE of England full to bursting with people, with interest rates etc now designed to cool down their economy, that actually harm us in Scotland.

[Action Man]

" I agree with Mantis".. :015:

[Kingsmills]

The man does indeed talk much sense, for once !

[Guest donmac298]

Action Man, I am not "taking this debate into dangerous waters" at all - you have put your own interpretation on it and you have got it wrong so don't jump to stupid conclusions.