The Rangers

[dougiedanger]

A lot of talk in the papers and online about the severe problems at Ibrox, even some prospect of them going down the tubes completely.

A lot of the media people seem to think automatically that this would be "a bad thing" for the game in Scotland, though some might say such a shift in power would let other teams into the frame and perhaps spark a revival in the game overall.

Where do you think ICT as a club and as supporters would stand on this issue, in particular, would the club vote to keep RFC in the SPL if it came down to that?

Or is this a chance to end the OF stranglehold on the game?

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

This is a complex issue because the facts are not currently transparent. This is exacerbated by the latest news

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9052393/Craig-Whyte-delays-publication-of-Rangers-holding-company-accounts.html

Depending on the level of debt and the status of each creditor will possibly determine what happens at Ibrox. As February advances I suspect the pressure on Rangers will increase significantly. Whether the real threat of administration begins to affect player performance will be interesting. HMRC may be meticulous in their work across different investigations or may decide to cut their potential losses by moving quickly. We do not know how the Club is being run.

If it collapses financially it may instantly have to cancel player contracts. Pompey and Dundee offer two examples of what might happen. Gretna and others offer further examples but none will be identical in terms of the end result.

The biggest losers if Rangers do implode might well be Celtic. They are more dependent on Rangers than we are.

In theory there will be better competition in the SPL which would be fantastic and might increase crowds around the country especially if Rangers supporters spent money at their local clubs. We do not know what effect it would have on TV contracts.

From a personal point of view, it will be seen as a breath of fresh air. Living well beyond ones means is a form of cheating in my book. ICT operate a well managed club like many clubs nowadays and it will be this style that maintains football in this country.

[starchief]

If Rangers collapse, who will win the SPL next year? And the year after?

Who has the support to get close to the money that Celtic will be spending, even with a reduced income from TV, Old Firm games etc.

The SPL is dull enough due to the dominance of the big two. And that lack of competition is to blame for the decline of Scottish football. But to have just one team with no competitors, winning title after title by tens of points???

Nothing will save Scottish football other than a complete redistribution of monies. Not 16 team leagues, where the Old Firm beat Queen of the South 7-0 and still win the SPL year upon year. Not investment in youth who up-sticks at the first sniff of the reserves at Derby. Only a league where a number of teams have a chance of winning could work

If only Old Firm fans cared about Scottish football above their own club (or Rangers finances in the case of Celtic fans - amazing how many tax experts the Green Brigade have).

[ictchris]

[+MrCaleyjag]

Should Rangers go to the wall, in my opinion, the biggest loser in the whole situation would be Celtic, it's ironic that the two biggest rivals in our game massively depend on each other and without one the other would have no or very little influence on the structure of Scottish Football. They may not come out and say it but the power men behind the scences at Celtic Park will be quaking over the thought of Rangers going bust.

We all know the money they generate is based around the fierce rivalry that exists and that also goes for the tv money that is generated through the SPL as well, without the 'big two' as they are put there is no way anyone would pay what they pay for Scottish Football tv rights. It is also not just down to money, when it comes to voting on certain issues with the SPL both Rangers and Celtic more often than not vote the same way and this is how they have managed to monoplise the distribution of tv money and sponsorship, without one of the other neither would be able to dominate decisions anymore and no more would the smaller clubs be scared to actually vote the way they want to. Look how ICT were treated when they voted no to the ten team league last year, it was a case of how dare you etc etc. Imagine a scenario where everyone gangs up on Celtic, they wouldn't know how to handle it and then we would see the toys thrown out of the pram but maybe that's what is needed. The same would be said if the roles were reversed and Celtic were in this situation.

For the other teams I see it as a blessing and I am sure that behind closed doors a lot of the big men involved in the other teams would see it as a good thing, I believe Celtic would continue to dominate for a few years after however slowly that gap would close as other teams would grow whereas Celtic would be the only team that would decline due to lack of money. The distribution of tv money is key to the whole thing and even a little extra for other clubs would make it possible for them to grow. Yes the money would be significantly less but with a better distribution the other teams wouldn't see a difference and if they did it would be minimul as what they get at the moment anyway is peanuts compared to Rangers and Celtic.

Gone are the glory days of Europe for Scottish teams and UEFA themselves have shown they are not interested in the smaller nations so putting that aside it may be the blessing that Scottish Football needs to completely tare everything up and start again and it may also serve as a warning to others as to the consequences of not running a club properly. I would not be surprised if Hearts go the same way, ironically again without Romanov they would be facing exactly the same issue but due to different financial reasons, it's only him having money that keeps the bank from calling the debt in.

From what I have read, know and see the only two clubs that really run their camp without really going into too much debt is ICT and St Johnstone but the rest certainly have debts beyond their means as well as running at a loss every year unless they can sell players to make ends meet, look at Hibs and Dundee Utd.

After all this though I don't see Rangers going bust, I see them going into administration before that just in order to stave off seeing the club going down, alone Ibrox is worth more than the tax bill is and if it really came to it and everything was stripped down, shipped out and sold on that would be the last thing to go, it might not be what they want however it might be needed. The very thought of administration for Rangers might even be enough for other clubs to start standing up for what they believe in and use the fact Rangers aren't the club they once were to shift the power once and for all.

[Sorted]

Rumours abound in Glasgow that 'going bust' is only a matter of time. That time will be dictated by when the SPL title is out of their reach.

Suggested to me that Craig Whyte's plan has always been to put into admin, write off the debt but retain ownership of the stadium. A newly created Rangers Football Club will be formed and buy the stadium from him and he will walk away with a tidy wedge. Very clever approach that will net him a fortune which, considering how little of his own cash he has put into the deal, will represent the smartest football dealings since Glazers bought Man Utd and switched the debt immediately.

Good or bad for Scottish football? Part of me thinks it's a clear shot across the bows to all the wannabes involved in our game that this ridiculous situation can't continue but ulitimately think our game would suffer without the associated revenue from the OF. All said, would be very happy if I never heard a song about a German queen or a British Empire ever again !

Edited February 1, 2012 by Sorted

[SMEE]

Did anyone else see the Inside Scotland special a few months back, about Craig Whyte. He has made his fortune by bankrupt businesses. the reprter was bsically saying tht they thought Whyte stood to profit should Rangers go down the tubes and maybe this is what he is angling for. Mad....but true

[CaleyD]

Scottish Football is terminally ill...even without the whole Rangers thing.

The best thing that could happen is it being administered a lethal injection. There's still some hope of rebuilding it, and rebuilding it for the better...but the longer it drags on in it's current state the more that hopes fade along with the will of the fans who will ultimately be the ones who are still around to pick up the pieces.

Rangers administration could be that lethal injection, but only if the rest have the balls and the long term vision to see beyond the short term pain.

Unfortunately I fear the rest do not have the balls and despite what they may say publicly, they will be scrambling like mad men behind the scenes to not only keep Rangers in the SPL, but keep them competitive with Celtic.

[dougiedanger]

Scottish Football is terminally ill...even without the whole Rangers thing.

The best thing that could happen is it being administered a lethal injection. There's still some hope of rebuilding it, and rebuilding it for the better...but the longer it drags on in it's current state the more that hopes fade along with the will of the fans who will ultimately be the ones who are still around to pick up the pieces.

Rangers administration could be that lethal injection, but only if the rest have the balls and the long term vision to see beyond the short term pain.

Unfortunately I fear the rest do not have the balls and despite what they may say publicly, they will be scrambling like mad men behind the scenes to not only keep Rangers in the SPL, but keep them competitive with Celtic.

Tend to agree with this. What is the point in tyring to maintain a status quo that is detrimental to the game as a whole, and which has run its course?

Let any club that has unsustainable practices take the natural punishment for them, and allow clubs time to find their feet and for the game to reorganize itsef in a way that benefits as many clubs as possible.

The worst thing that could happen would be to prop up any club that cannot run its affairs properly. We have had enough of a set-up that has all but killed the game.

All clubs should look to the post-OF future and consider the ways in which it could bring a rebirth for the game.

[Ten4]

Rangers going into administration or liquidation could be the best thing to happen to Scottish football.

Same as Livingston or Airdrie send them packing to the 3rd div.!

What a boost to the finances of every scottish league club as they work there way back up through the leagues !

[CELTIC1CALEY3]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/16710949

The Pompey Experience.

[CaleyD]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-16833798

David Cameron to the rescue?

Think he's setting a dangerous precedent by getting involved and throwing any weight behind swaying a decision one way or the other.

[Yngwie]

I wouldn't read anything into that D. He gets asked a question at PMQs as to whether he agrees it would be a good idea for HMRC to hold a meeting with Portsmouth, that's all. He's hardly going to say "No, just wind them up as quickly as possible, put more people out of work and just write off all the taxes outstanding".

It'll be interesting to see what sort of political backing Rangers get when they go into administration - my perception is that they have always been the team of the "establishment" in Scotland and have a lot of support in high places.

[Charles Bannerman]

- my perception is that they have always been the team of the "establishment" in Scotland and have a lot of support in high places.

Mmm... I just wonder how many members of The Scottish Referendum Party are "loyal" devotees of football's Unionist Club?

Edited February 1, 2012 by Charles Bannerman

[CaleyD]

Think I preferred the days when Politicians just said "No Comment".

[Yngwie]

But PMQs would be even duller than it currently is!

[Yngwie]

I don't think this is common knowledge, but taxpayers' money has actually been used (or abused) to help save a Scottish football club before. Someone in a position of great power ordered government lawyers and officials to help rescue a Fife club, one that he just so happened to support.

[PaderbornCaley]

Suggested to me that Craig Whyte's plan has always been to put into admin, write off the debt but retain ownership of the stadium. A newly created Rangers Football Club will be formed and buy the stadium from him and he will walk away with a tidy wedge.

Interesting. If a 'new club' was formed. Would they retain SPL status? After all, if they are a new club wouldn't they have to apply to enter the SFL first?

It would be unfair on teams who don't abuse the tax system, if Rangers started again with a new club, and were automatically granted access into the SPL. Lots of First Division teams who pay their taxes would have something to say. Actually, the team that gets relegated from the SPL, whilst not abusing the tax system to enhance their team could have a case.

[CaleyD]

Entirely up to the SPL whether or not they wanted to transfer Rangers SPL status to a new company.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Overspending is simply spending money they don't have. It's like the Municipal Council here in Maple Ridge, Canada, spending great gobs of money that does not yet exist on projects of dubious merit because they assume that great gobs of money will come in from property developers simply based on past experiences.This behavour, once it reveals itself, is a red flag since it points to unorthodox methods of operation that have not been tried and truly tested and must depart fron normal accounting practices. Even if they can make such a scheme work in the short term it is not sustainable over several financial periods and ultimately is a recipe for disaster.

This simply forces them to increase the taxes residents have to pay in property taxes, year by year, by amounts at least twice, if not greater than, the annual inflation rate. This situation then perpetuates itself until they face banklruptcy but , as a Council, this would not only be unthinkable but would never happen because, like all Governmemnts, they simply find another tax to impose on the already burdened residents. Their percepton is that spending money is a must and to get re-elected and they need to show "improvements " in either flower beds or new homes developments. The problem is always that the money they receive from developers never meets all the ongoing costs of sewers etc that these new developments require and this is usually accompanied by a set of Councillors who may be well meaning but lack the financial experience and vision to implement a policy of control and savings. Which, incidentally, mirrors the attitude of the average Canadian resident who is so deep in debt that they will have bleak financial future when the Feds do away with the OLD AGE SUPPLEMENT.

Rangers must have spent money they did not have to get into this situation in the first place. And then used money, that they may have saved, to start propping up a deteriorating financial siiuation or not having spent it on paying off accumulating debt. Their fan base which is dwindling cannot support their thinking that they must do this to get more fans in the gate. And whereas the fees for big players get higher each year the revenue does not follow suit because there is a limit to what the average fan can afford to pay...or is willing to pay.

Rangers going bust could be very good for Scottish football. Celtic might easily follow. And it would open up space fpor Scottish football to breath and expand at a pace not determined and controlled by the Old Firm. Tension in the SPL would be released and a more free -flowing product , more equality-based, would flourish. The emphasis would be less on money coming in, hopefully, than getting a higher quality entertaining football game onto the park because there would be more money to dish out to everybody instead of almost all of it going to these two.

The Spl at the moment is extremely unbalanced and unequal and getting rid of both teams would not, necessarily,be the worst thing possible against its survival.

[Sorted]

Suggested to me that Craig Whyte's plan has always been to put into admin, write off the debt but retain ownership of the stadium. A newly created Rangers Football Club will be formed and buy the stadium from him and he will walk away with a tidy wedge.

Interesting. If a 'new club' was formed. Would they retain SPL status? After all, if they are a new club wouldn't they have to apply to enter the SFL first? It would be unfair on teams who don't abuse the tax system, if Rangers started again with a new club, and were automatically granted access into the SPL. Lots of First Division teams who pay their taxes would have something to say. Actually, the team that gets relegated from the SPL, whilst not abusing the tax system to enhance their team could have a case.

CD is right. It would be up to those who run the SPL. That would be an interesting meeting eh?

Sadly, this kind of 'prepack' deal is all to common in business nowadays. Fold Friday, pay no one, start Monday. Some of the worst examples involve small companies who then go and give the 'newco' more credit ! Better examples pay everyone but the institutional creditors and often do the deals with their knowledge. Good example close to a big mountain that people ski on on the A9 not the A82. Fundamentally wrong.

How will the chiefs of our top league react to a reformed Rangers (suggest in name only!)? Roll over and have their bellies tickled I suspect.........

[starchief]

Have to say, I think it's pathetic that the old directors are coming out against Craig Whyte in respect of debt. What is the one biggest threat that could make Rangers fold? It's the tax bill. Run up by the very same directors who criticise Whyte for not spending money. It's the old board that is to blame.

Yeah, Whyte seems a dodgy character but the only reason a dodgy character is in charge is because the previous regime was so monumentally bad that their decisions almost (and perhaps still might) close the club.

Much as I'm surprised that Rangers sold but didn't buy in the transfer window, it's probably the right decision. Sacrifice the title to stay alive. Save their powder for after the tax bill and judge what they can afford next season (if they have any sense, free transfers for Riordan, O'Connor, Skacel and Hayes with McGregor being sold for extra cash).

Wouldn't it great to get back to a situation where the Old Firm weren't quite so out of touch that a good manager could make his club challenge for the title? These days, Sir Alex and Big Jum McLean wouldn't be able to achieve anything with DU and the Dons. How woeful a state of affairs is that?

[Sorted]

Murray and Co have to take a hell of a lot of the blame. Having said that with MIH in debt of over £700 million he probably has bigger concerns.

Whyte has made his own nest and has to shoulder the blame for the here and now. Nothing he didn't know pre deal has transpired and he still manage to lift the league trophy at Ibrox days after taking control (crass stupidity of the highest order!). He then went on to make promises in the knowledge that he couldn't deliver them. Madness.

No apologist for the metal man by Whyte has to take full responsibility for where he sits and the the flack for telling porkies! How much was Aunt Sally promised? Each year and every year?

[CaleyD]

Only just realised today that they have borrowed (and it would seem already spent/squandered) £24 Million against future Season Ticket sales....no wonder Whyte is delaying publishing the accounts and holding an AGM!!!

That must put them in excess of £80 Million in debt and no doubt they're racking up other debts elsewhere all the while as well.

[Alex MacLeod]

If RFC dont take action very soon and call in the administrators they could find themselves in a similar position to Portsmouth who are facing a winding up order. If HMRC decide to persue this route and its granted then the company would cease trading and effectively be wound up.

Its hard to predict the future of football in Scotland without either of the OF. Without the competition of those two would the TV companies and major sponsors of the league pull out? Its easy to think that, maybe, the competition would be better with all teams having the chance of top positions but would we then become a similar standard to League of Ireland with very little TV coverage and little money to share around? Would the lower standard drive more fans away?

Love them or hate them I feel both halves of the OF are a necessary evil in Scottish football.