Butcher OUT?

[Renegade]

Higher maybe. Are injuries the only reason why ICT aren't top six? No. More excuses from Mr Butcher.

Edited March 10, 2012 by Renegade

[AJS]

Higher maybe. Are injuries the only reason why ICT aren't top six? No. More excuses from Mr Butcher.

Most problems lead back to injuries.

We've never had a settled back four? Mainly down to injuries.

We've had to sign so many short term and loan signings? Defnitely down to injuries.

Players being played out of position and not getting the best out of them? Butcher deserves some flack for this cause he hasnt always had to do it but this is partly down to injuries too.

Lack of width and attacking flair? Shinnie, Doran and Hayes are all out just now.

Im not totally standing up for Butcher as you could argue that some signings havent been up to scratch and it could be argued that he never really replaced the stalwarts. But its safe to say he's never had an opportunity to really make a mark with his new team because there has never been a moment where he has had the majority available to him.

[Joonya]

I think we're only having this discussion because we haven't won a game in our last 6 outings and with it we haven't been entertained as fans. But as I mentioned before earlier in this topic, we've had very difficult opposition and lost some key players to our squad. Players who were ever present and significant to the 7-game unbeaten spell we'd just came off the back off, are now either out injured long-term or have left the club - Davis, Hogg, Hayes, Shinnie, Cox, Piermyar...

Forgive me if I am wrong, but were people not calling for Butcher to go earlier on in the season? their reasons being because, although we were entertaining, we weren't getting the results because the team was new and hadn't gelled. We gelled, entertained, got a good wee run together, and then lost the backbone of that squad and thus haven't won since.

It's no fault of Butcher that he's had to play people out of position. We simply don't have the depth in squad to be able to swap a Torres for a Drogba or a Welbeck for a Hernandez.

What does irk me slightly with Butcher though, is his constant desire to play Foran for a full 90 week in week out. He's simply not the player he was and Monday wasn't the first time he's (Foran) made costly errors this season and proceeded to blame somebody else. You can even look at his spat with Hayes in the cup as an example of this. Yes, start him by all means. We don't have a deep enough squad to drop him completely, but when he makes howlers such as those against Utd on Monday, it would have surely been wise to hook him rather than Nick Ross for Gnakpa for the final 20-25 minutes?

[PaderbornCaley]

I think we're only having this discussion because we haven't won a game in our last 6 outings and with it we haven't been entertained as fans. But as I mentioned before earlier in this topic, we've had very difficult opposition and lost some key players to our squad. Players who were ever present and significant to the 7-game unbeaten spell we'd just came off the back off, are now either out injured long-term or have left the club - Davis, Hogg, Hayes, Shinnie, Cox, Piermyar...

Forgive me if I am wrong, but were people not calling for Butcher to go earlier on in the season? their reasons being because, although we were entertaining, we weren't getting the results because the team was new and hadn't gelled. We gelled, entertained, got a good wee run together, and then lost the backbone of that squad and thus haven't won since.

It's no fault of Butcher that he's had to play people out of position. We simply don't have the depth in squad to be able to swap a Torres for a Drogba or a Welbeck for a Hernandez.

What does irk me slightly with Butcher though, is his constant desire to play Foran for a full 90 week in week out. He's simply not the player he was and Monday wasn't the first time he's (Foran) made costly errors this season and proceeded to blame somebody else. You can even look at his spat with Hayes in the cup as an example of this. Yes, start him by all means. We don't have a deep enough squad to drop him completely, but when he makes howlers such as those against Utd on Monday, it would have surely been wise to hook him rather than Nick Ross for Gnakpa for the final 20-25 minutes?

[Tormod]

Have to say I'm staggered to find people agreeing with the original post but fair play, I only see games on the telly. From where I'm sitting Butcher made a mistake in completely overhauling the team this season but lesser managers wouldn't have been able to keep us as far as he has from relegation after having done so. I think with the benefit of hindsight he ought to have spread the changes over two seasons and getting shot of Munro was a strange one. However, I honestly can't imagine many other managers having us nine points clear of relegation with a game in hand at this stage. That's not to say we're safe.

I think most of his signings have been good. I'm not keen on Hogg and wouldn't let Proctor near the first team squad but apart from that he's got good value from both loans and signings in my opinion.

I'll be surprised if we're in this position next season. I can see the injury situation settling down and with a couple of signings/loans we'll do our usual of flirting with top six qualification.

I'd be interested to know which SPL clubs you'd be happy to swap managers with?

Edited March 10, 2012 by Tormod

[lukemackay]

Today i thought his tactics were spot on solid at the back good going forward

We actually got the ball in the box played it on the ground and i could count the amount of long balls on one hand

We outplayed killie today just getting the ball in the back of the net was an issue

Edited March 10, 2012 by lukemackay

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Here is some reading fer ya !!

[Huisdean]

Aye, vert clever and adds a lot to the debate or do I detect some other agenda!.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Un autre agenda - Moi

[+bughtmaster]

Un autre agenda - Moi

I warned you about dark glasses !!!!!!!!!!

[Sorted]

Lets deal in facts only. No 'what ifs', 'could have been' or 'should have been'.

hislopsoffsideagain lays out the numbers very clearly for us all to see in his points comparison post. No one can argue with that. Lots are trying to provide reasons but the numbers are the numbers irrespective.

Another fact is that our football management costs are higher now than they ever have been.

And one final fact: If my auntie had balls she'd be my uncle!

Edited March 11, 2012 by Sorted

[caleyboy]

Can I just ask those who are unhappy with TB & MM who they see as suitable replacements at the same or less money or if they are available?

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

The bottom line is that there are probably a considerable number of replacements from a coaching and tactical perspective but very few who could compete with the presence, charisma and personality of Terry Butcher. I am surprised that Malpas has not looked at a managerial post of his own and that may well be in the offing.

[bdu98196]

TB started this season by clearing out some players from the club, some left and with it a dose of experience in key areas then brought in a crop of young players either on permanant contract or loans - some are working some haven't. Now personally I don't see this season being a disaster or blaming TB exclusivley, we have had injuries and been unlucky in games but in others the players have failed to step up either due to lack of commitment or skill?

Look at the issues AVB had trying to change the Chelsea team and bring in youth etc, not saying TB is the same league but it has its similarities. This year we have to stay up and results over the rest of the season need to improve and TB must realise and settle for starting 11 or make good assessments as to who we will keep and who to let go in the summer.

Its obvious we need a striker and with Rooney leaving there was little choice, I said at the time Tade was a good supporting striker but not the man to lead and looks like thats sadly the case. With Grant leaving in the summer its left us weak at the back to.

Let TB have the summer to do some more transfer moves and see what he brings in (experienced centre back & proven striker) and who he lets go, then in 12 months if we are in the same situation and not shown progression or improved play then maybe its time for a change.

Lets give managers time at ICT - instead of following the merry-go-round the EPL have created.

[caleyboy]

I still think TB & MM are as good as we are going to get and would totally agree that managers should have time to build. However, our budget is very limited so we can't, although we do, expect our managers to perform miracles. We should however expect to see some structure and stability in the squad but with all the loan signings I just can't see how this can be achieved.

[PaderbornCaley]

Can I just ask those who are unhappy with TB & MM who they see as suitable replacements at the same or less money or if they are available?

When Butcher came in and up untill we got relegated, I would say 'fairly statisfied'. Once we got relegated on the last game of the season I went down to 'neither satisfied or dissatisfied' as I couldn't blame him for relegation. I remained 'neither satisfied or dissatisfied' for the first half of Division 1. From the second half of Dvision 1 untill April last year I had jumped up to 'Very Satisfied'. On the announcment that Munro and Duncan were getting booted, I went down to 'fairly satisfied' (I presumed there was a grand plan but wasn't happy with the decisions). As the pre season unfolded I would say I bordered on Fairly Satisfied - neither satisfied / unsatisfied. As the season started up untill present day, I would say I have decreased to 'fairly unsatisfied'. Some of the signings have been poor and tactics baffling at times. But the new season will bring new faces and hopefully a bit more stability. So, I am optomistic that I will be fairly or even very satisfied by this time next year. I may be fairly unsatisfied at the moment, But I am happy for Butcher to be here for the long haul - there will be ups and downs! A few wins against County next season will be fantastic for morale!

[Scotty]

Football is a roller-coaster ride ..... and for most of us that don't support perpetually successful teams, this should be the design of our stadiums !

[Scarlet Pimple]

T B can have all the personality and charisma in the world but if his decisions about brininging in loanees, i.e only temporary players really, and players from far away with no possibility of identfication with this area, then what good is it?

The ideas floated around here about scouring the lower divisions is equally as good as the ones about going to English teams for loanees. And I am sure that it is likely that we can get them for a small amount of money.

I just do not subscribe to the view that any player coming in on loan from way down south is ever going to have his heart committed to ICT and, to be quite honest , I don't see Terry being that emotionally committed either. Success and recognition for being a winner is probably his motivator. Later, if he stays in Inverness this might change.

In the short term I think he has his hands full ,judging by his policy to date, to get this team into the upper echelons of the SPL. It's all about time and I don't feel that he has a lot of it at his disposal. To set up a winning, consistent and stable team he needs more time, more players committed exclusively to ICT.....AND and more players with experience. And, in all categories, being Scottish.

[bdu98196]

We get players on loan as they are here to prove themselves with regular football so should be 'hungry' to get experience and make a point to their parent clubs. Plus the fact a young player on loan may only cost wages or part wages is better than signing players who require fees and are tied to contracts long term. Sadly we have to cut our cloth to suit the finances so if we did get relegated any season we can trim the wage bill easily - which is done by the end of loan contracts rather than a big squad of longterm contracts and wages we cant sustain so how can we critisise the club for trying to manage finances in this manner while trying to remain competitive?

As for players being Scottish, dont see that being relevent unless they are local boys who support and love the club then whats it matter where they are from - Foran plays and gives ful effort every game, as do others - nationality isnt an issue, its player attitude.

As fans we can all see the positives this season (Ross, Sutherland, Shinnie - young players coming through) but equally can see the failings in defence (perhaps he will think letting Grant leave was a mistake now) and scoring - now we need to give TB time to address this for next season and judge based on that progress. He got us straight up from D1 to SPL and now after 1 season back he will see where he has 'understimated' areas of the squad. Perhaps as fans we need to be realistic - SPL survival, 1 or 2 good cup runs and a possible top 6 finish some seasons - is anything more is achievable?

Edited March 21, 2012 by bdu98196