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ICT v CELTIC - 25/08/12


CaleyD

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Today's performance was the most dominant I have ever seen from them against us up here. many players who I didn't recognise who obviously wanted their chance to make an impression on their manager with the possibility of champions league games coming up. I didn't expect us to win, but didn't expect us to lose such early goals - which puts us up against it straight away.

I'm more confident with this squad than last season's and think that we will more than hold our own with a young inexperienced team.

I think Butcher is a very stubborn manager and i worry that he is going ruin Sutherland. he has been played out of position so often and he looks a broken player with no confidence. Such a shame to see a young talent looking that way.

Meekings has to be our first choice right back. But anticipating that Butcher stickes with shane and raven, i will bet that will will be the first two taken off in our next game.

Doran flatters to deceive in my opinion. He looks promising, has talent and vision but looks so unfit.

The main thing that concerns me is that some things continued from last season - sending offs, conceding late or early goals and penalties.

On a plus note, County may be above us at the moment but they have only scored two goals this season, neither of which have come from open play whereas we have scored 7, and had to play with ten men on two occasions.

Forget the Celtic match - let's see what's next.

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Today, in the North Stand, only reinforced my belief that the away games are so much more enjoyable. Moans everywhere today, from those who only turn up for games once in a while. Where's Grant Munro, where's Rossco - please people, these players are gone, and however you moan they are not coming back. Even when Draper scored his two goals there were the moans, its too little, too late etc etc (and half of them couldnt even get his name right, even though he has played quite a few games for ICT now).

Its got to the stage when I now enjoy the away games so much more, the craic and the singing but, unfortunately I seem to "endure" the home games, because of the constant sniping against the team. I am not a happy clapper, but want to enjoy the games I go to, not listen to the abuse I have to suffer today - its enough to drive me to drink (especially the (one) cocktail I enjoyed in Dows today before the game!). Please note, I had no other alcohol before the game, or since.

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Ok I've had a full days drinking in me but I'll try and put this precisely and to the point

One thing that stands out for me is the lack of footballing abilities on show from that two clowns we have at the back Raven and King

Who exactly are they???? Even after ten pints I reckon I could pass the ball and put in a tackle better

I know it's early days for both of them and maybe in time they will improve as they adjust to the SPL but let's face reality they have taken a huge jump from non league football in England to the top flight in Scotland

I'm not going to dwell on the attendance but that must have been the first time ever when an away old firm support has outnumbered ICT fans judging by the number of empty seats in the main and north stands

Finally why does Terry feel the need to get into verbals with the punters in the main stand on a regular basis, not sure what was said today but he got pelters back from a sizeable number, very unprofessional no matter what

I can only hope this was a bad day at the office and I'm not going to judge everyone on what was my first ICT game of the season but I'm pretty concerned regarding our defence and lack of fight

Dougal

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Fer fecks sake Luke - the bottom line is that Butcher dumped Munro and Tokely who would have stayed here probably till the end of their feckin careers - that is a defensive partenrship that has been dismissed by the Messiah and most of us cannot figure out the logic. Bottom line is - TODAY - what combination would have been better ?

And his persistence in how he plays Sutherland, McKay and Ross is becoming tedious.

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Disgusted doesn't come close to describing how I felt after that today. My first time seeing ICT this season and I'd been encouraged by the first three results and went along today expecting to see a big improvement from last season's performances !! ..............I left with 25 minutes still to play !

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Like others I didn't expect us to beat Celtic but I did expect a performance where we would actually compete for the ball and show some desire and hunger. Instead we looked like the proverbial rabbits caught in the headlights. No guts about us at all and no-one capable of putting in a crunching tackle.

Raven is way out of his depth. Foran and Jones were equally culpable today, their stupidity cost us big time as we had no midfield and let them run all over us. Who was the captain today because he didn't show himeself when we needed him? Was it Esson who was captain?

I also have a big gripe about the programme insert today with both Butcher and Foran having a pop at our support. If they learned the basics of entertainment then they could provide a product that would attract a support. I only bought it for the team sheets and even that was garbage as the Celtic goalscorer Watt wasn't mentioned and I am sure we had a number 40 on our bench but the insert doesn't name him.

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two clowns we have at the back Raven and King

Who exactly are they????

Would you believe that Raven played for the Liverpool first team under Rafa Benitez? Hard to believe, I know, based on what we have seen from him so far.

He then seems to have been a decent player for Carlisle, Shrewsbury and Tranmere, held back by injury problems rather than lack of ability. I'm pretty sure he must be capable of playing much, much better than we have seen, but have no idea why he just hasn't performed yet.

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It is easy to be critical of players after seeing them perform below expectations in just a handful of matches. Match day situations are different from the training ground and players who show great ability in training can take some time to adapt. I have seen Raven in the 2 home league games and he has not impressed, but rather than slate the lad I think he should be given his chance if the management team feel his showing on the training ground justifies his place in the starting line up ahead of Meekings.

But sometimes, no matter what coaches see day in and day out on the training ground, that form never translates itself to the match day situation and you just have to accept that something different has to be tried. Surely we are that stage with the way MacKay and Sutherland are played and it is worrying that Butcher persists with this. Remember when he first came here and persevered with Barrowman when Rooney was clearly a far better option on match days.

It must be frustrating for coaches when players who shine on the training ground perform poorly on matchdays. Equally it can be exasparating (in a nice way) when players who are nothing special in training do much better in matches. The skill is recognising these situations when they arise and responding positively to them. The concern with Butcher is that he seems to be too stubborn in persisting in what he thinks should work rather than recognising what actually does work.

Raven maybe just needs a few more games to adjust to the SPL before things click with him. If things click then perhaps in a few months time we will have everyone on this forum saying he must be offerred a new contract. We are shooting ourselves in the foot if we slate him and discourage him before he has had a real chance to prove himself. Let's have a bit of faith in the judgement of the management team and if Raven continues in the team for a few more matches, give him support to help him boost his confidence.

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He asked the fans to get behind the team as they needed the twelfth man to kick in, a couple of embarrassed Come on Caley and then silence again. As well as the team having the worst performance of their season (they were all poor without exception) from minute one it was like being at a wake with a noisy party going on next door.

I don't think as a team we will be so nervous again, simple passes were going astray and players weren't doing their jobs well enough. Unfortunately that happens against Celtic sometimes. However, we are always going to be handicapped by having a third division support.

Any chance you could lead the singing at Fir Park on Sunday then?

There's a solution genius
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MY PERCEPTION OF THE GAME WAS THAT WE WERE OUTCLASSED BY A MUCH BETTER TEAM. fASTER IN MIDFIELD AND BETTER CONTROLLERS OF A FOOTBALL

However we played better than we did against Kilmarnock, the difference was ICT was punished for their mistakes , which Killie didn't do.

I get the impression we should narrow the pitch. We have no wide men capable of using such a wide pitch, so why provide the opposition of Celtic's quality the room to exploit our fragile fullbacks

The boy Draper has great qualities, I am sure he will thrive as the season continues.

One begins to think how good our northern neighbours are when we consider how close they came to a victory against Celtic.

No need to worry though , I am sure we can consolidate, not many teams in this league can compete with Celtic.

Doom and gloom by the fans after this result is a bit previous I feel.

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Can you tell I'm angry?

A bit, yeah. I always really enjoy your match reports and the way you read our games, but I don't really think the tactics were the problem today, and although I broadly agree with you about Sutherland's and Raven's limitations, and also about the number of poor passes today, I can't really criticise Butcher for sticking with a line-up that has played some decent football and gone three games undefeated. We probably should have been more aggressive from the start today, but I'm guessing the manager is trying to instil a consistent philosophy of patient passing football rather than hopeful long balls.There were glimmers of this for fifteen minutes in the first half and in the final ten minutes of the game, but the biggest problem was that we met a team of naturally better players, many of whom had something to prove and so got stuck into us from the start. Today's performance might give Butcher the justification to bring in Meekings and Pepper, and I'd be very happy with that, but I hope that he does continue with the approach that the team has adopted so far this season, rather than making some knee-jerk reversion to packed defences and punted balls forward: we are going to have bad days no matter how we play.

Edited by alternative maryhill
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Munro and Tokely? The centre-back partnership at the end of our relegation season, one of whom got himself red-carded early on in the final, must not lose, game against those giants of world football, Falkirk.

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Can you tell I'm angry?

A bit, yeah. I always really enjoy your match reports and the way you read our games, but I don't really think the tactics were the problem today, and although I broadly agree with you about Sutherland's and Raven's limitations, and also about the number of poor passes today, I can't really criticise Butcher for sticking with a line-up that has played some decent football and gone three games undefeated. We probably should have been more aggressive from the start today, but I'm guessing the manager is trying to instil a consistent philosophy of patient passing football rather than hopeful long balls.There were glimmers of this for fifteen minutes in the first half and in the final ten minutes of the game, but the biggest problem was that we met a team of naturally better players, many of whom had something to prove and so got stuck into us from the start. Today's performance might give Butcher the justification to bring in Meekings and Pepper, and I'd be very happy with that, but I hope that he does continue with the approach that the team has adopted so far this season, rather than making some knee-jerk reversion to packed defences and punted balls forward: we are going to have bad days no matter how we play.

Wow that was sobering ? Good points but even Charlie Christie had a couple of clear "pops" at the tactics on ESPN. We simply sat back and allowed them to play and to dominate. We should have been pressing from the off and in their faces. I would defy anybody to tell me what roles were given out to Nick Ross and Draper in the first half - and we had front men coming back into midfield to gather the ball deep - how often did McKay and Shinnie do that. And how many times was Ross, in acres of space, ignored and Doran being constantly sought out in the old Hayes mould. And how many times did we find Shane, naturally pulling in to the middle and receiving the ball in the hole but invariably passing it astray or playing it backwards. The move leading up to the Shinnie miss said it all to me. Sutherland in a forward position, Doran on the overlap and a cross that McKay may well have tucked away had Shinnie not have got the first touch - now if we had played like that all day ??

And finally my gripe about King and Warren again is - what were they asked to do ? They looked soild recently because they played in a line and covered each other. It was almost as if King had been asked to "sweep" and for Warren to attack the balls - but that wasnt how Cellic played.

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I don't understand how anyone can really try defend the team here to be honest. Yes Celtic had some good players but that has never stopped us from giving it a go in the past! If I am honest losing by two goals isn't that bad and certainly not the end of the world but never have i seen such a lack of effort on our part. Last week at Hearts, Warren and King were throwing themselves in the way of shots and you could sense the boys were up for a fight. It seems today that the team were scared of Celtic from the word go! This is where it is Butcher's fault for me cos he should get the team believing they can hold their own! I will not start the nonsense of Butcher out cos it ain't going to happen and I also believe that he will turn things around for us. But for right now he needs to stop being so stubborn and drop underperforming players from the next game to give the young guys, who wear their heart on their sleeve, a chance!

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The words "scared of Celtic from the word go" work for me.

I know the early goal didn't help but perhaps it may not have happened if we had been up at at em. I raise the question were our team devoid of confidence and unmotivated walking out on that pitch yesterday?

I am no expert but looked like that to me

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I don't understand how anyone can really try defend the team here to be honest. Yes Celtic had some good players but that has never stopped us from giving it a go in the past!

Yes, it has. We've been well humped by the Old Firm in the past with just as bad performances.

I suspect Raven wasn't dropped to stop disruption against a better team. With his substitutions, I think this might have been his last chance (for the moment). I fully expect Meekings to start next week. Although Arbroath might be a different proposition. Maybe he needs that game to get established.

I wonder if 4-2-3-1 was a mistake. Most of us chose that as it probably wasn't the time to experiment but without Foran or Jones, I'm not so sure we can actually play that system. Again, Arbroath might be different, where Morrison might get a chance. Maybe a change with Draper as the sole defensive mid is the way without those players.

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There's an interesting range of views on this thread concerning why this performance was so bad - and it was really bad. Firstly, the Andy Walker school of analysis which dictates that if a football team plays badly then the players can't be trying hard enough or don't care enough about the club they are representing. This is an extremely lazy way to think about football and it's offensive to a group of players who have started the season quite well considering the circumstances. Then we have the 'hold our hands up and admit we just weren't good enough' brigade. Sure, Celtic are much better than us, but as others have pointed out, this was a relatively weak Celtic team having it easier in Inverness than they have ever had it before. Nerves definitely played a part - how else can you explain the number of misplaced passes and bombscare defending? Central midfield and central defence are always key in these games - the two central midfielders have to press like **** and the centre halfs have to concentrate at a much higher level than they are used to. Injuries and suspensions obviously didn't help us in those areas, but Butcher didn't give the players out there a chance to perform. I'm more than happy to see us pass the ball a bit more this season, but the number of times we gave it away in dangerous areas was just terrible. Mostly, I think Draper, Ross and the full-backs just didn't have options when they wanted to play it forward. Apart from Shinnie, who is really looking for the ball in our attack? Shane is static out wide and only seems to offer anything to the team when he comes inside to win the ball. What kind attacking threat does he actually offer? I've never seen Doran play for more than 10 minutes in a game. He looks capable of creating chances in those wee spurts but needs to become much more involved overall. And Billy McKay. Poor Billy McKay - he didn't ask for this. I saw glimpses of good link up play from him in Paisley but we were on top for long spells in that game. When we are on the back foot he offers absolutely nothing as an out ball. It scares me that we seem to have no other options up font.

As Gavin Morrison was preparing to come on the tv camera focused on him and Butcher preparing him to come on. Butcher had a piece of paper in his hand but he looked confused and didn't say a word. Perhaps it was upside down.

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I don't think anyone expected a win against Celtic, but at least making it difficult for them is surely expected. Look at how difficult County made it for them last week. Are we now saying we can only rise to the occasion for teams of a similar standard. Not good enough.

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The discussion about Munro and Tokely is interesting and will be sure to be a major talking point throughout the season. On the face of it they appear to be doing well but I think that is more of a reflection of the way Adams sets out his team to play. They are playing not to lose and as a result Munro and Tokely are being protected and their lack of pace and mobility is less of an issue. Because we are now a more attack minded side, our back four and particularly the 2 central defenders are getting rather exposed. I suspect that if Munro and Tokely were still in our side, they would be doing no better than King and Warren. I also think that if teams can break down County early on and they are forced to push more, there are several teams, us included, who could take good advantage of the weaknesses of our 2 ex defenders. One thing's for sure, when we play County it will be a lot more than just a local derby, there will be a few people with a point to prove. Of those, nobody will have more of a point to prove than Terry Butcher, but unlike Munro and Tokely, on the day he will be reliant of the performance of others to prove his points for him. I think he will be more animated than ever. I haven't decided whether I will watch the game or watch the manager on the day!

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