Merger Talk

[Charles Bannerman]

Found this interesting wee article from 2004 http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/30-Clubs/2065-the-moral-highlands

 

As a matter of interest what was the average attendances of the two clubs in highland league? Article above suggests 2000 average in 03/04. Now we average 3500. That suggests that crowd figures have risen since merger and rise up the leagues.

Now lets assume the merger never happened and Caledonian were granted entry to league. Would that team be in top league now with 3500 average crowds or would it be languishing with Montrose and East Stirlingshire with less than 500 averages.

The history of both clubs will not be forgotten nor will the history making of the current club but without the two there probably wouldn't be a current club in its current position.

In the latter days in the Highland League, Thistle's and Caley's typical combined attendance might have been in the ballpark of 600. In an era when a Scottish Cup tie against the likes of St Johnstone or Kilmarnock was considered a rare novelty, that could rise 10 fold thanks to the presence of a correspondingly large number of glory hunters who attended Thistle and Caley games once in a blue moon so played no effective part in the clubs' support.

I would also agree that in Division 1 in 03-04 it was about 2000, as it had tended to be for much of that period in D1. Move another rung up the ladder and indeed you do now have around 3500 which is around a 5-6 fold increase alongside the rise from the Highland League to the top half of the Premiership over the period that the pro-refusenik lobby bemoans so much damage having been done. I find it interesting that the linked article suggested that progress up the leagues had been slower than expected, given the universal ridicule attracted by Dougie McGilvray's "Off The Ball" statement that ICT would reach the SPL within 10 years - ie by 2004 - whch it did.

As for the "prawn sandwich" type references in other recent posts, the old chestnut about journalists not paying to get into football matches really is getting very tired and weary. The reality is that many of the organisations for which journalists at football matches work pay a lot of money for broadcasting rights etc. Similarly what some fans like to dismiss as the "prawn sandwich brigade" in corporate hospitality also pay for this service.

The main effect of important incomes like this is that they actually subsidise the season tickets of supporters since the lunatic economics of football are such that gate recepits do not come close to meeting running costs of football clubs.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

And is it not apt that the above is a page header. And adding even more fuel to my argument. It was those large numbers of who you refer to as "glory hunters" who I am counting in the lost attendees. Going my your criteria I was one of those Caley "glory hunters" due to travel commitments - alongside three regular mates (who will not watch ICT). If we use that criteria today ICT have quite a lot of "glory hunters" living in Englandshire. Another slur on the football fans who spend a lot of money on trying to support their club from afar.

 

I agree though that journalists not paying to get into matches has become very tiring and wearisome. Media and true fans in hospitality is two completely different things and again a slur on the ordinary fan who pays well for an irregular pleasure rather than a regular freebie. And why shouldn't the media pay towards it ?

 

In conclusion I note that the Sun are looking fer two regular big tits for their Page 3 contribution - I have e-mailed and suggested Euan Murray and Charlie Bannerman - a squirrel and a mouse.

[gordieict]

 

Found this interesting wee article from 2004 http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/30-Clubs/2065-the-moral-highlands

 

As a matter of interest what was the average attendances of the two clubs in highland league? Article above suggests 2000 average in 03/04. Now we average 3500. That suggests that crowd figures have risen since merger and rise up the leagues.

Now lets assume the merger never happened and Caledonian were granted entry to league. Would that team be in top league now with 3500 average crowds or would it be languishing with Montrose and East Stirlingshire with less than 500 averages.

The history of both clubs will not be forgotten nor will the history making of the current club but without the two there probably wouldn't be a current club in its current position.

In the latter days in the Highland League, Thistle's and Caley's typical combined attendance might have been in the ballpark of 600. In an era when a Scottish Cup tie against the likes of St Johnstone or Kilmarnock was considered a rare novelty, that could rise 10 fold thanks to the presence of a correspondingly large number of glory hunters who attended Thistle and Caley games once in a blue moon so played no effective part in the clubs' support.

I would also agree that in Division 1 in 03-04 it was about 2000, as it had tended to be for much of that period in D1. Move another rung up the ladder and indeed you do now have around 3500 which is around a 5-6 fold increase alongside the rise from the Highland League to the top half of the Premiership over the period that the pro-refusenik lobby bemoans so much damage having been done. I find it interesting that the linked article suggested that progress up the leagues had been slower than expected, given the universal ridicule attracted by Dougie McGilvray's "Off The Ball" statement that ICT would reach the SPL within 10 years - ie by 2004 - whch it did.

As for the "prawn sandwich" type references in other recent posts, the old chestnut about journalists not paying to get into football matches really is getting very tired and weary. The reality is that many of the organisations for which journalists at football matches work pay a lot of money for broadcasting rights etc. Similarly what some fans like to dismiss as the "prawn sandwich brigade" in corporate hospitality also pay for this service.

The main effect of important incomes like this is that they actually subsidise the season tickets of supporters since the lunatic economics of football are such that gate recepits do not come close to meeting running costs of football clubs.

 

 

Charles you seem to be missing my point, I just thought it was a bit rich complaining about fans who pay for the pleasure of "making an arse of themselves" when you get into games for free and I would imagine also get paid for the pleasure. 

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

He is close to the point of no return !!!!

[Huisdean]

 

And is it not apt that the above is a page header. And adding even more fuel to my argument. It was those large numbers of who you refer to as "glory hunters" who I am counting in the lost attendees. Going my your criteria I was one of those Caley "glory hunters" due to travel commitments - alongside three regular mates (who will not watch ICT). If we use that criteria today ICT have quite a lot of "glory hunters" living in Englandshire. Another slur on the football fans who spend a lot of money on trying to support their club from afar.

 

I agree though that journalists not paying to get into matches has become very tiring and wearisome. Media and true fans in hospitality is two completely different things and again a slur on the ordinary fan who pays well for an irregular pleasure rather than a regular freebie. And why shouldn't the media pay towards it ?

 

In conclusion I note that the Sun are looking fer two regular big tits for their Page 3 contribution - I have e-mailed and suggested Euan Murray and Charlie Bannerman - a squirrel and a mouse.

Don't think Charles was referring to glory hunters in the same way you are IHE. For those of us who did support Thitle, as I did, and Caley, we all know that cup ties against the "big" teams attracted much bigger crowds than league games because of the novelty factor and the possibility of a genuine cup upset. These are the glory hunters I think Charles is referring to, not exiles who no longer live in Inverness and cannot attend games as a result. Towards the end of their existence, cup shocks were much fewer for Caley and Thistle although probably down to both of them having much poorer teams than previously.

I well remember local Inverness derbies attracting well over our average gate of 3500 in the 60s and 70s but these days had long gone at the time of the merger.

[gordieict]

As I have said previously I had no real affiliation to any of the Highland League sides and was happy to see any Inverness side do well. I did however enjoy standing in the Howden End watching and listening to the real characters in there. Those type of fans are sadly lacking now, whether that is the sign of the times or to do with the merger I am not sure but i do think Inverness football is a poorer thing without them.

[Laurence]

He is close to the point of no return !!!!

 Give the bloke a chance he is by far the most knowledgeable  of all the posters on this aspect

It is getting very boring ( someone mentioned the boar war earlier) to keep taking the Michael out of Charles

[gordieict]

 

He is close to the point of no return !!!!

 Give the bloke a chance he is by far the most knowledgeable  of all the posters on this aspect

It is getting very boring ( someone mentioned the boar war earlier) to keep taking the Michael out of Charles

 

 

Just because someone is knowledgeable about something doesn't ensure that they can see both sides of the argument, something I feel Charles fails to do 

[buckett]

When flinging around statistics regarding relative attendances pre- and pro-merger for comparison, nobody seems to have considered the huge increase in the population of Inverness and surrounding area during this period.

 

Not, of course, due to an increase in breeding ability, but to large-scale immigration.

 

Unfettered by previous allegiances, the football-oriented among them would be inclined to embrace the local senior team, whether it be Caley, Thistle, Clach, or a combination of these.

 

Don't forget that at the time of the merger, Clachnacuddin was the most famous of the Inverness teams, mainly because of its stupid long name!

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

someone mentioned the boar war earlier

 

 

You've made a pig's ear of that reference.

Edited July 16, 2014 by HawkeyeTheGnu

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Buckett - I feel that CB unfortunately left his wording very open to misinterpretation but he did fortunately highlight an important group of supporters who I know have been lost to ICT. Of course the attendances fell near the end. That happens to any team that is not producing the goods. And thank you fer reminding us of the increasing population and the arrival of the supporters derided by Dougal.

I wonder how many on this forum come in to the arrived in Sneck after the merger numbers.

Laurence - it is I who has attempted to enter into a serious debate but CB merely appears content in utilising abuse which is a clear defence mechanism used when losing an argument. Plus two things - he is not knowledgeable about the merger - he is merely brainwashed by the INE and the supporters of his fairy tale publication. Secondly I do not need to attempt to make him look stooped - he is doing a fine job on his own.

[Charles Bannerman]

Two points before I withdraw from this topic on the grounds that it has become just as intolerant as the one on the Referendum.

 

Firstly, criticising journalists for not having to pay to get into their place of work is just about as unimaginative and mindnumbing a view point as it is possible to put forward. What will you be wanting to do next? Charge John Hughes and the players as well for access to that same place of work? Dispense with media coverage altogether and just forget about the resulting publicity and the broadcasting fees which substantially subsidise your season tickets?

 

Secondly, it is quite clear what is meant by gloryhunters here. Whenever a club reaches what its support and local community perceive to be a "big game", attendance at that game on the part of that support and local community increases to a greater or lesser extent. Typically this leads to a 2 or 3 fold increase in "support" for that team. When a Highland League club met a "big team" in the Scottish Cup, the increase was more like 10 fold because of the enhanced novelty factor. Much of that increase comprises people whose interest in the club concerned is at best marginal and fails to prompt them to attend more than once in a blue moon. However it seems that IHE's creative arithmetic motivates him to include people like that who might have gone to watch Caley once every three or four years or whatever as merger "refuseniks" and hence "lost fans" -  which is clearly ludicrous.

 

In simple summary - the decision in 1993-94 for Thistle and Caley to merge has created for Inverness a rise from the Highland League to the top half of the SPFL Premiership and a five or six fold increase in typical attendances at matches.

But instead of simply enjoying that scenario, a small minority seem obsessed with wallowing in 20 year old grievances. If a few eggs have chosen to break themselves in the course of achieving the meteoric progress which has been realised in Inverness, then that is a small price to pay.

Edited July 16, 2014 by Charles Bannerman

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

someone mentioned the boar war earlier

 

You've made a pig's ear of that reference.

Boer - boar - bore. Simply off topic and infantile.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Two points before I withdraw from this topic on the grounds that it has become just as intolerant ant poorly articulated as the one on the Referendum.

 

Firstly, criticising journalists for not having to pay to get into their place of work is just about as unimaginative and mindnumbing a view point as it is possible to put forward. What will you be wanting to do next? Charge John Hughes and the players as well for geting into their same place of work? Dispense with media coverage altogether and just forget about the resulting publicity and the broadcasting fees which substantially subsidise your season tickets?

 

Secondly, it is quite clear what is meant by gloryhunters here. Whenever a club reaches what its support and local community perceive to be a "big game" attendance at that game on the part of that support and local community increases to a greater or lesser extent. Typically this leads to a 2 or 3 fold increase in "support" for that team. When a Highland League club met a "big team" in the Scottish Cup, the increase was more like 10 fold. Much of that increase comprises people whose interest in the club concerned is at best marginal and fails to prompt them to attend more than once in a blue moon. However it seems that IHE's creative arithmetic motivates him to include people like that who might have gone to watch Caley once every three or four years or whatever as merger "refuseniks" and hence "lost fans" -  which is clearly ludicrous.

 

In simple summary - the decision in 1993-94 for Thistle and Caley to merge has created for Inverness a rise from the Highland League to the top half of the SPFL Premiership and a five or six fold increase in typical attendances at matches.

But instead of simply enjoying that scenario, a small minority seem obsessed with wallowing in 20 year old grievances. If a few eggs have chosen to break themselves in the course of achieving the highly laudable objective which has been realised in Inverness, then that is a small price to pay.

I would rather peeple had a go at journalists rather than demeaning true football fans. The comparison with the playing staff is simply incredulous and again clutching at straws.

When Caley played big games peeple from all over Britain came along - just as what happens with ICT. I only ever watched Caley when I was home on holiday or to see family or to the bigger games and I include Thistle and Elgin in that.

I am not wallowing in old grievances and I evidently fully support ICT and have some great memories and made a lot of new friends. I am attempting to challenge some of the nonsense being spouted and the pathetic demeaning of true and loyal football fans. And if it was an egg scenario it would be a contender for the Worlds biggest omelette.

[Alex MacLeod]

Ach some folks have too much time on their hands

[+HawkeyeTheGnu]

Boer - boar - bore. Simply off topic and infantile.

 

 

If the cap fits...

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Ach some folks have too much time on their hands

  

Boer - boar - bore. Simply off topic and infantile.

 

If the cap fits...

I can't win - I attempt to be serious but I am abused and derided

Ach some folks have too much time on their hands

There are some issues that need to be stoutly defended.

[Alex MacLeod]

Stoutly

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

Jhesus are you Bannerman in disguise ?

[12th Man]

So to sum it up if Caley had gone it alone they would be somewhere between bust and regulars in the europa league and would have between 300 & 20,000 fans, their stadia would be on the high school grounds and the kids would get taught in the old b&q

[Alex MacLeod]

On the subject of so called glory hunters I must also be one by some folks reckoning. I cant get to every home game. I dont live near the stadium and I work abroad. On second thoughts I'm maybe not a glory hunter. I didn't get to any cup games last season either.

[IMMORTAL HOWDEN ENDER]

I am not shure how this has got deflected on to IF Caley had been funded etc., etc. The sore point that I initially responded to was in regard to attendances and the "loss" of a much larger number becos of the merger than was being argued. This led on to dismay and disgust at some of the comments made about loyal and respectable followers of both Caley and Thistle, some who have shown the same level of commitment to ICT. It would appear that some feel that you have to practically have had to attend every game pre 2004 to qualify to be considered to be a real supporter.

At least I have clearly succeeded in winning that debate and hopefully have cleared up some of the myths previously published about the merger process. I am shure that many of the post merger affiliatiors to ICT will have a clearer understanding now.

[Laurence]

 

 

someone mentioned the boar war earlier

 

You've made a pig's ear of that reference.

Boer - boar - bore. Simply off topic and infantile.

 

 Infantile - Brilliant  I so wish, 71 I am two weeks Friday. Oh to be Infantile !!

 

Bombs dropping on London on  my birthday -  now that is another topic and definitely off but not simple - oh for quiet times and the infantile references that fill our days.

[caleydawson]

Just a question where was the first chairman from was he Caley or Thistle 

[Laurence]

I will sign off as I'm accused of being infantile  - To say one last and final point

About attendances at football matches

They have dropped throughout all leagues

eg.

In 1971 or so Bury played Bolton at Gigg Lane and 35,000 souls turned up

Rochdale entertained Bury in a 3rd Div North match and had about 19'000 there

so to compare historical attendances with modern day crowds is pointless