The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Ayeseetee]

On the "new poll" topic Ayseeteee says posting is disabled since we already have enough independence topics going.

 

In that case why the HELL has he started yet another one especally since weve got the real poll in a few weeks time?

 

Because if you notice that other poll is from march 2013 and is now closed alot has happened since.

 

If we have the real thing in a few weeks this poll should be a bit more indicative of the final result so why does it bother you so much?

Edited August 11, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

 

I don't doubt it, but it is Alex Salmond you need to convince.  He is still hell bent on the one option which is not available.

 

That would be because he is trying to work within the Edinburgh Agreement...and Westminster isn't.  Plan A is Plan A and will be until, if we vote for Independence, and all Westminster parties refuse to negotiate a currency Union.........we go to Plan B.

 

However, in the end,  it won't be Westminster who decides, we all know that.......Westminster doesn't have as much power as big business nowadays.....it will be the money men who decide...those same money men who obliged Westminster to take ownership of all the debt Westminster had run up. They want to guarantee they will get paid, so while we are waiting to see whether Westminster or Salmond will blink first, it will be interesting to see the reaction of investors, shareholders and companies (the market) to the possibility of 10% of the UK balance of payments being wiped off the balance sheet (and Scotland not paying any share of the UK debt).

 

 

You say Westminster does not have as much power as big business.  Maybe you are right and maybe you are wrong, but are you seriously suggesting that Edinburgh will have more power than both?  The reality will be that in the event of independence, what you see as the unhealthy relationship between the bankers / financial institutions and Government at Westminster will simply be transferred to Edinburgh.  The difference is that Scotland's disproportionate dependence on the financial sector makes the Scottish Government even more vulnerable to pressure from the institutions, particularly given that they have the option to simply relocate south of the Border to where the bulk of their customers are.

[Scarlet Pimple]

The U S dollar is sound currency in North American countries and also in Ukraine and probably in Russia too.

 

In Ukraine it's not that they are not printing the Hrivna any more but that it's value fluctuates so much with all the disturbances and general mayhem occurring in that part of the world that the US dollar is accepted as good value for money and as a more stable  currency of exchange for goods. 

 

Wouldn't it be  great if the whole world was on the same value system and currency?

[Alex MacLeod]

Go to the link and download the wee blue book. Loads of independent information that may held the undecided. http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/

[Sneckboy]

Go to the link and download the wee blue book. Loads of independent information that may held the undecided. http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/

A Freudian slip, perhaps?! 'Independent' information is all you'll get on Wings Over Scotland!

[Ayeseetee]

 

Go to the link and download the wee blue book. Loads of independent information that may held the undecided. http://wingsoverscotland.com/weebluebook/

A Freudian slip, perhaps?! 'Independent' information is all you'll get on Wings Over Scotland!

 

 

1

Introduction

 

"Scotland is served by 37 national or daily newspapers. Not

one supports independence. (The only publication to

back a Yes vote is a weekly, the Sunday Herald.) Newspapers

have no duty to be fair or balanced, but when Scotland

faces a decision as big as the one it’ll make on September

18th, the press being so overwhelmingly skewed to one

side is a problem for democracy.

Our website, Wings Over Scotland, is biased too. We

support independence, because we think it’ll make Scotland

a wealthier, fairer, happier place. We think Scotland will

be better off choosing its own governments to solve its

problems and make the most of its opportunities, rather

than hoping that the people of Kent, Surrey and Essex

might elect ones with Scotland’s interests at heart.

We think the facts comprehensively back that belief up. But

we’re not going to ask you to take our word for it.

A very great deal of what you’ve been told about

independence in the last few years by Unionist politicians

and the media is, to be blunt, a tissue of half-truths,

omissions, misrepresentations and flat-out lies. We want

to show you the truth hidden behind those lies, but using

fully-referenced and impartial sources that you can go and

check for yourself.

We’ll be mostly using the UK government’s own figures,

the views of academic experts and Unionist politicians and

officials, NOT those who support independence.

On September the 18th you’re going to have to make the

most important decision any Scot in history has ever made,

and it seems only fair that you should be able to do it based

on the real and full facts. Scotland’s media has only told

you one half of the story. Don’t you at least want to hear

both sides before you decide"

 

 

Atleast they are more honest than the yougov polls that are sold to newspapers who want to pay for a catchy headline that sells more papers.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

Whats the world coming to?

 

 

Stephen hawking and a load of english celebrities back a NO vote despite not having a vote thus trying to use their celebrity status to change peoples minds (both sides are guilty of this)

 

 

Yet the most intelligent response to the debate from someone who doesnt have a vote is from a god damn CHUCKLE BROTHER......

 

http://www.holymoly.com/celebrity/news/chuckle-brothers-finally-break-silence-scottish-independence70246

 

 

kill me 

Edited August 12, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

Written in January 2013 by a Unionist (at least he was then).......and the only things that have changed in the intervening 18 or so months,  is that the bite of austerity on the easiest marks has become tighter, as the rich, the bankers and big businesses continue to profit...and No Better Together Thanks have upped the cost of Independence from the £1 a person a year (as below), to up to £910 per person per year....or put another way £600 per year per household, .....undoubtedly arrived at using the very same calculator they use to forecast the income from oil, or the cost of setting up a Scottish government machine to rival that of bloated Westminster......or how much Scotland is better off in the Union (£1400 per person was the last figure I saw.)

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/jan/20/scottish-independence-becoming-only-option

 

From the article .........

Unionists, me included, have talked loftily about dangers of break-up and separation in a world that is thirsting for continuity and stability.

 

Yet we conveniently overlook the fact that London has already broken away from the United Kingdom and now exists as a world super-state governed by the greed of unhindered capitalism and recognisable as British only by its taxis and bad service. As the world's most newly minted oligarchs continue to colonise the independent state of London, it becomes almost impossible for families on less than £250k to live decently there. Poor London families made homeless by the coalition benefit cuts are being evacuated as far north as Middlesbrough.

Last week, Goldman Sachs, one of the banks with its fingers in the till when global economic meltdown occurred, awarded an average bonus of £250,000 to each of its employees. The gap between the richest in our society and the poorest stretched a little more and we were reminded yet again that the UK government, despite its promises, allows greed, incompetence and corruption to be rewarded. (How many people do you think will go to jail for the Libor rate-fixing scandal?) Meanwhile, Westminster politicians are dividing the poor into categories marked "deserving" and "scum".

 

and

 

Earlier this month, the UK Treasury declared that, following a period of intense and prolonged analysis of the economic numbers, each of us would be £1 a year worse off in an independent Scotland.  Put another way, for £1 a year you will never have to endure the economic privations of a Conservative government ever again. You will not be penalised for being poor or old and nor will you suffer the pain of watching your young boys being killed in illegal wars or occupations.

 

As an aside......I am still waiting for something from No Better Together Thanks.or Westminster politicians to tell me what we can't have as an independent country but can only have within the Union and no other possible way. What exactly does make us Better Together....and why is it something they find so difficult to quantify? I can see clearly why the rUK is Better Together with us......but no idea why we are Better Together with them.

Edited August 13, 2014 by Oddquine

[Ayeseetee]

anyone see this last night?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

No comment by me required.

 

http://www.yesscotland.net/news/yes-scotland-challenges-alistair-darling-nhs-funding-hypocrisy

 

Yes Scotland Chief Executive, Blair Jenkins, has challenged No campaign chief Alistair Darling to explain the difference between claims made about the threat to Scotland’s NHS funding, that helped get him elected as an MP in 2010, and the exact opposite and contradictory claims now being made by the campaign he leads.

Mr Jenkins said: "Mr Darling, you were elected saying a Westminster Tory government would 'slash funding for schools and hospitals' in Scotland but now lead a campaign that wants us to believe that Scotland’s funding is safe in Tory hands."

The Scottish Labour Party’s 2010 General Election Broadcast makes clear that a Westminster Tory government has and would cut Scotland’s health spending and that this is a ‘risk’ that Scotland faces. The broadcast states:

    "They [the Tories] starved our schools and hospitals of funding and there’s a real risk they’d do the same again."
    "They wouldn’t fight for the NHS, they call it a 60 year mistake."
    "The Tories would . . . slash funding for schools and hospitals . . . The Tories haven’t changed."

The official No campaign is now arguing that there would be no impact on Scotland’s schools and hospitals from Westminster Tory policies, including the ongoing privatisation of the English NHS.

Commenting, Mr Jenkins said: "Mr Darling has been caught out saying two very different things in two campaigns. He was elected on the back of the claim that a Westminster Tory government poses a threat to Scotland’s NHS, and now leads a campaign that is trying to argue the exact opposite.

"Of course, Mr Darling was right back in 2010 when he warned that Westminster Tory cuts could damage Scotland’s schools and hospitals.

"Elsewhere in the UK, the Labour Party is warning that the privatisation of the NHS in England could mean cuts. This would have a direct and automatic impact on Scottish spending as a result of the Barnett formula.

"Given that Mr Darling’s party identified the threat to Scotland’s NHS in 2010 and his colleagues, including the Welsh Health Minister, are repeating that warning today, it is simply not credible for the No campaign to continue with their assertion that Tory health privatisation won’t have a damaging impact on Scotland’s NHS.

"The NHS is Scotland’s most valued public service. We simply can’t risk any knock-on damage to our health service in the future from the Westminster government’s privatisation agenda. Scotland needs to fully protect its NHS, and that comes only from a Yes."

 
 

[Sneckboy]

My voting form arrived on the doorstep this morning. After, months and months (and years for some, and 'centuries' for others!) of debate, it's now become very, very real!

There will be an actual vote on Scottish Independence in a little over 4 weeks time.

It's a massive question..an enormous call - do we want to break up the United Kingdom and go it alone?

 

It's a once in a life-time opportunity to vote for this.

 

There's no point moaning in a couple of years time, or even 5 or 10 years from now. Make that 20 years or 50 - or more. Westminster will ensure that there are no further referenda on Scottish Independence - by hook or by crook.

 

Certainly, the rules will be changed to prevent or hinder any further 'attempts' from us Scots trying to 'break away' or better ourselves.

It's effectively now or never. The UK parliament will be swiftly 'changing' their statute books to ensure this opportunity never, ever occurs and embarrasses them again.

 

Don't think, "I wont vote for Independence this time - but, next time, I probably will!"

There will be no next time!

 

Regardless of preference, it's the biggest vote in many generations; and certainly the most important ballot we'll all have in our lifetimes.

Good luck to those who are campaigning over the next month.

 

I hope we can get 80% turnout! Game on.

[Ayeseetee]

My voting form arrived on the doorstep this morning. After, months and months (and years for some, and 'centuries' for others!) of debate, it's now become very, very real!

There will be an actual vote on Scottish Independence in a little over 4 weeks time.

It's a massive question..an enormous call - do we want to break up the United Kingdom and go it alone?

It's a once in a life-time opportunity to vote for this.

There's no point moaning in a couple of years time, or even 5 or 10 years from now. Make that 20 years or 50 - or more. Westminster will ensure that there are no further referenda on Scottish Independence - by hook or by crook.

Certainly, the rules will be changed to prevent or hinder any further 'attempts' from us Scots trying to 'break away' or better ourselves.

It's effectively now or never. The UK parliament will be swiftly 'changing' their statute books to ensure this opportunity never, ever occurs and embarrasses them again.

Don't think, "I wont vote for Independence this time - but, next time, I probably will!"

There will be no next time!

Regardless of preference, it's the biggest vote in many generations; and certainly the most important ballot we'll all have in our lifetimes.

Good luck to those who are campaigning over the next month.

I hope we can get 80% turnout! Game on.

It will be 25 years until the next one (roughly)

Unless something big happens like the uk leaving the eu when the majority of scottish people want to stay then expect another alot sooner!

[Joe DiMaggio]

My voting form arrived on the doorstep this morning. After, months and months (and years for some, and 'centuries' for others!) of debate, it's now become very, very real!

There will be an actual vote on Scottish Independence in a little over 4 weeks time.

It's a massive question..an enormous call - do we want to break up the United Kingdom and go it alone?

It's a once in a life-time opportunity to vote for this.

There's no point moaning in a couple of years time, or even 5 or 10 years from now. Make that 20 years or 50 - or more. Westminster will ensure that there are no further referenda on Scottish Independence - by hook or by crook.

Certainly, the rules will be changed to prevent or hinder any further 'attempts' from us Scots trying to 'break away' or better ourselves.

It's effectively now or never. The UK parliament will be swiftly 'changing' their statute books to ensure this opportunity never, ever occurs and embarrasses them again.

Don't think, "I wont vote for Independence this time - but, next time, I probably will!"

There will be no next time!

Regardless of preference, it's the biggest vote in many generations; and certainly the most important ballot we'll all have in our lifetimes.

Good luck to those who are campaigning over the next month.

I hope we can get 80% turnout! Game on.

It will be 25 years until the next one (roughly)

Unless something big happens like the uk leaving the eu when the majority of scottish people want to stay then expect another alot sooner!

There hasn't been one in the past 307 years! What makes you think there would then be two in 25 years. Westminster will ensure this never arises again.

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

My voting form arrived on the doorstep this morning. After, months and months (and years for some, and 'centuries' for others!) of debate, it's now become very, very real!

There will be an actual vote on Scottish Independence in a little over 4 weeks time.

It's a massive question..an enormous call - do we want to break up the United Kingdom and go it alone?

It's a once in a life-time opportunity to vote for this.

There's no point moaning in a couple of years time, or even 5 or 10 years from now. Make that 20 years or 50 - or more. Westminster will ensure that there are no further referenda on Scottish Independence - by hook or by crook.

Certainly, the rules will be changed to prevent or hinder any further 'attempts' from us Scots trying to 'break away' or better ourselves.

It's effectively now or never. The UK parliament will be swiftly 'changing' their statute books to ensure this opportunity never, ever occurs and embarrasses them again.

Don't think, "I wont vote for Independence this time - but, next time, I probably will!"

There will be no next time!

Regardless of preference, it's the biggest vote in many generations; and certainly the most important ballot we'll all have in our lifetimes.

Good luck to those who are campaigning over the next month.

I hope we can get 80% turnout! Game on.

It will be 25 years until the next one (roughly)

Unless something big happens like the uk leaving the eu when the majority of scottish people want to stay then expect another alot sooner!

There hasn't been one in the past 307 years! What makes you think there would then be two in 25 years. Westminster will ensure this never arises again.

 

 

 

1979 - devoloution referendum

 

1997 - devoloution referendum

 

2014 - independence referendum

 

We havent had the power for long and I would hope westminster could do **** all about another referendum (if it is a no) but you never know that whole iraq war wasn't exactly lawful or justified and no one is in jail.... except the ones in guantanimo bay yup that horror is still open.

 

lol 3.3 stars.... https://plus.google.com/106568354491101775421/about?gl=uk&hl=en

 

lol a uk citizen.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2312284/Shaker-Aamer-Hes-cleared--devastating-secret-MI6-Iraq-invasion-means-freed.html

 

lol warcrimes....

 

 

maybe you are right!

Edited August 16, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Scarlet Pimple]

Now you are thinking!

 

Although the likes of that  pretty boy, unscrupulous Cameron will have gone, the Westminster-ites will never forget it if the vote is a narrow defeat for the yes voters and they, and their like-minded politicians, will move heaven and earth to make sure that their cushy life-style is NEVER threatened again. Oh my goodness, did you think that the issue was about something else.....?

 

To date they rarely think of Scotland but this vote will strongly focus their eyeballs on the Scottish scene and, one way or the other, it won't be with love in their hearts I can assure you.

 

This is last chance gulch coming up and the Indians in the Southern states are trying to block the pass as hard as they can.

 

Your choice is simple:        servitude or freedom.

[+DoofersDad]

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

[Alex MacLeod]

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

And when you're paying for education and paying for health services and still driving over potholes and still complaining about empty shop units in the high street and the high taxes and interest rates and the fascist state we'll be living in dont come greeting to me.

[Ayeseetee]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11038121/David-Cameron-Isil-poses-a-direct-and-deadly-threat-to-Britain.html

Iraq war part 3 anyone?

Vote no and pledge to kill another 140,000 innocent iraqi men women and children in your name!

Edited August 17, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Oddquine]

 

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

And when you're paying for education and paying for health services and still driving over potholes and still complaining about empty shop units in the high street and the high taxes and interest rates and the fascist state we'll be living in dont come greeting to me.

 

 

It will, at least stop us blaming Westminster for everything, after September 19th, if there is a NO vote....we will blame the NO voters/non-voters who kept us thralled to Westminster.

 

I suspect that in ten years time, there will be nobody who is prepared to admit having voted NO, or not voted, when we become the English region of North Britain; when Scottish Water, Scottish NHS and Scottish education, as they are now, become unaffordable on our pocket money, and we have to go down the privatisation route, thus filling the pockets of those of our legislators with interests in the private companies; when we are being fracked to hell and beyond for the benefit of the UK treasury and the pockets of our legislators with interests in the private companies, despite the fact that we will have enough money kept back from us to contribute to the £1.3 trillion projected cost of upgrading London for the 21st century, the money to pay our share to upgrade the UK's nuclear "willie" so they can flash it at the world, the money to pay towards the UK debt mountain and help pay for the costs of bloated Westminster Government (or Westminster will borrow the money on our behalf, as they have only balanced seven budgets in the last 30 years) and cite that as a reason we can't ever be independent as we have swingeing debt, which was incurred to pay for Westminster's incompetence and profligacy.

 

And when we wake up to the coming reality that we are not considering now, as we draw the security blanket of the known dependency around our shoulders and over our heads, it will be too late to change anything. We should be voting on September 18th for the best option for our children's futures, not just to maintain our own present.....because that present is no more certain than independence.

 

This referendum is not a choice between uncertain Independence and a certain Status Quo, it is a choice between independence, with no certainty as to how it will be accomplished, bar that the aim is to end up with a fairer and more equal society and to provide more opportunities for all of us in Scotland, and a Status Quo which simply means what Westminster decides will keep London and the South booming, and which means there is no certainty there after 2015, bar that we know there will be more austerity and cuts, more daemonisation of those on benefits, who are easily trashed, an increasing "working poor", as zero hours contracts are deemed work to massage the employment figures, and it will provide more opportunities to build an even more unequal society as private companies encroach more and more on provision of public services to give profits to shareholders, and the taxpayer subsidises private companies to pay the kind of wages which produce the "working poor".

 

If we do vote NO, at least I'll get some use from my  three YES T-shirts...as I will get added above the YES. "Don't Blame Me, I Voted"  . Any suggestions as to how I can alter one which says"HOW NO?"  and another which says "Auld Wifies for YES" to give the same message?

[dougiedanger]

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

 

Ah, a fully signed-up member of the Bannerman Front for Outdated Conceptions of a Benevolent Union and Nice Tories as Opposed to Those Nasty Reds in Hey Jimmy Land.

[dougiedanger]

 

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

And when you're paying for education and paying for health services and still driving over potholes and still complaining about empty shop units in the high street and the high taxes and interest rates and the fascist state we'll be living in dont come greeting to me.

 

 

Hey, that's the "thriving and vibrant UK" you're talking about there.

[starchief]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11038121/David-Cameron-Isil-poses-a-direct-and-deadly-threat-to-Britain.html

Iraq war part 3 anyone?

Vote no and pledge to kill another 140,000 innocent iraqi men women and children in your name!

And your response to religious genocide would be...?

[Ayeseetee]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11038121/David-Cameron-Isil-poses-a-direct-and-deadly-threat-to-Britain.html

Iraq war part 3 anyone?

Vote no and pledge to kill another 140,000 innocent iraqi men women and children in your name!

And your response to religious genocide would be...?

 

 

 

Not Scotland's problem sorry we have our own problems let the americans deal with it alone....

 

Do you want to be associated with this place?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

 

 

Talking about genocide maybe the uk could stop selling weapons to isreal?

 

http://rt.com/uk/180880-uk-weapons-israel-court/

Edited August 17, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

 

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

 

Ah, a fully signed-up member of the Bannerman Front for Outdated Conceptions of a Benevolent Union and Nice Tories as Opposed to Those Nasty Reds in Hey Jimmy Land.

 

Still on the "you must be a Tory if you vote "No" bandwagon"?  Tell that to the majority of the population who intend to vote "No" when support for the Tories in Scotland is so low. 

[Ayeseetee]

 

 

Well I'm voting "No" to the servitude of a central belt dominated socialist state and instead will vote for a continuation for the freedoms enjoyed as part of a thriving and vibrant United Kingdom.

 

Ah, a fully signed-up member of the Bannerman Front for Outdated Conceptions of a Benevolent Union and Nice Tories as Opposed to Those Nasty Reds in Hey Jimmy Land.

 

Still on the "you must be a Tory if you vote "No" bandwagon"?  Tell that to the majority of the population who intend to vote "No" when support for the Tories in Scotland is so low. 

 

 

 

Well all 3 major uk party's are all on one side on this debate and it is getting harder and harder to tell the difference between the conservatives and labor politicians so cut him some slack.

 

I get branded an snp voter because I am voting yes so it happens on both sides

Edited August 17, 2014 by Ayeseetee