The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Sneckboy]

Yeah, a bit like that!

[Ayeseetee]

Just got a wee tidbit for now

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25626977 (last paragraph)

 

"Oil would continue to be managed at a UK level, as would welfare and pensions, defence and foreign affairs, Under the plans, the Act of Union between Scotland and England would be scrapped and replaced with a declaration of federalism."

 

 

So yes and no vote will both end the union lol?

Edited September 7, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Sneckboy]

Now she's contradicting her standpoint from last night!

I only just asked if her 'gay friend' had demonstrated all the possible ins-and-outs and if all positions had been covered?

She's just stormed out shouting 'No, No, No'!

Maybe she's changed her mind?

[Ayeseetee]

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/polish-workers-told-by-no-activists-you-would-have-to-leave-an-indy-scotlan.25260906

 

I she polish?

 

she might have heard that she would have to leave scotland if we voted yes 

Edited September 7, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[IBM]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-29099431

 

Getting an update on the BBC website, cant help noticing the out of date picture of Inverness in the background on Alex Salmond's clip.

 

It's squeaky bum time for the No campaign!

[Oddquine]

In the next few days, we will be getting, from Westminster, according to Alistair Darling, just now, a strong vision of how the UK  will deal with Scotland if we stay, so we will be better together......honest!  From his interview...in which he said we were told weeks ago what was offered (which was nothing of use or ornament)..he says there will be yet another talking shop set up to discuss further changes...talking shops like Kilbrandon and Calman......all .the recommendations of which did not get into the subsequent acts placed before Parliament,  and many of those which did get included were removed/amended in the process of the readings and watered down.

 

A timetable to talk about something which then has to get through Parliament is not a guarantee of anything at all, as we have found in the past.....and nobody is talking about anything even vaguely approaching Devo-max anyway.  I do hope that 1979 has taught us a lesson about how much Westminster can be trusted...but I'm seeing 1979 deja vu all over again.   I do hope that Scottish heads no longer zip up the back!

[Yngwie]

Hopefully you can bring yourself to agree that a commitment from all 3 major political parties to give more powers for Scotland is a GOOD THING.

 

1979 was 35 years ago, a whole generation, and is pretty irrelevant to most of us these days, everything has moved on.  (case in point: the SNP were Tory allies that year)

 

As far as I am aware "Westminster" didn't promise anything back then, and presumably you are referring instead to the pledges of one Tory who was speaking in a personal capacity, it wasn't party policy and he wasn't even in government.

 

Now, though, if the UK PM is promising that this will happen, and that is backed by party policy for all 3 major parties, then it is pretty reasonable to believe that it will go through parliament, it will happen. 

[dougiedanger]

Your naivety is touching Yngwie.

[Ayeseetee]

Thinking politicans would never lie WOW.....

 

 

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-turn-out-to-support-darlo-mums-protest-against-nhs-privatisation-9716734.html

 

 

you heard it here first: Vote no if you trust westminster politicians   

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

Devo-Max is a red herring here because the question being asked is whether or not we want independence.  Once Independence is rejected, then you can discuss whether more devolution is desirable.  The better together campaign and the Westminster based parties are shooting themselves in the foot getting sidetracked on this when they should be focussing attention on attacking the case being made for Independence.  There are two things fundementally wrong with the approach they are taking.

 

Firstly, if the response is simply to offer more and more by way of devolution of powers, it is not unreasonable for the voter to say "well, if you want to hand over more and more powers, why don't you go the whole hog and gives us independence?  If giving us all these addition powers is good, why is independence not good?"

 

Secondly, by offering the voters a sweetener to remain in the union, there is an implication they accept that when Salmond promises a land of milk and honey, he actually has got milk and honey to offer. 

 

What they should be saying is that it is not a jar of honey that Salmond is holding, it is a jar of vaseline which he will be using liberally to shaft the voters if we make the mistake of voting "YES".

 

The Scottish leaders of the Unionist parties are no better.  Johann Lamont, Willie Rennie and Ruth Davidson make strange bedfellows. They seem to have no idea of who should do what with whom and to date their fumbling around has done little to get anyone excited.

 

With just a few days to go before the poll and with many already having voted by post, we still do not have answers to basic questions and we are being asked to believe in an economic case which is fundamentally flawed.  The fact of the matter is that first and foremost, the leadership of the YES campaign want an independent Scotland for better or worse.  What is in the best interests of Scotland is a secondary consideration to the fact that Scotland should be independent.  In order to get enough people to vote for indepence the YES campaign are offering the electorate a vision which sounds great but which is not affordable.  The undecided and even some who would normally vote "NO" have fallen for the con.  Hopefully the Better Together leadership can refocus on the issues that matter before Scotland's economy is plunged into crisis.

[Ayeseetee]

I will tell you what awaits us if we stay in the uk....

 

current uk debt    £1,312,636,783,371

 

(Not 100% accurate but pretty close)

 

www.debt-clock.org/

 

 

 

£20,777

per person

 

£50,106

per household

 

£97,861 per child

Our children and grandchildren will have to pay off our debts, not us.

[Ayeseetee]

That figure is only going to rise and you are going to leave it for your children and their children to deal with personally I cannot bring my self to do that and I DON'T even have any kids yet, so don't tell me the only risk to their future is with a yes vote....

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[+DoofersDad]

Thinking politicans would never lie WOW.....

 

 

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/thousands-turn-out-to-support-darlo-mums-protest-against-nhs-privatisation-9716734.html

 

 

you heard it here first: Vote no if you trust westminster politicians 

 

But he's not the one who's lying on this issue.  The Tory Government has actually increased public spending on the NHS in England in line with the pledges they have given. 

 

http://www.england.nhs.uk/allocations-2013-14/

[Ayeseetee]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/nhs/10610648/Scale-of-NHS-financial-crisis-revealed-amid-looming-staff-cuts.html

 

http://voiceofrussia.com/uk/news/2014_09_08/English-cancer-care-service-at-tipping-point-after-years-of-budget-cuts-0563/

 

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/08/378052/cuts-harming-uks-nhs-cancer-care/

 

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/warning-over-nhs-cuts-impact-30559760.html

 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/public-sector-cuts+health

 

http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/sandwell--west-birmingham-nhs-7646507

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/cuts-blamed-as-nhs-cancer-waiting-time-targets-missed-for-second-quarter-in-a-row-9699908.html

 

http://www.mancunianmatters.co.uk/content/160870241-specialist-status-hazel-grove-mp-leads-battle-beat-nhs-cuts-stepping-hill

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/aug/30/ed-miliband-labour-put-nhs-centre-general-election-campaign

 

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/11409497.NHS_cuts_blamed_for_rise_in_staff_stress/?ref=mac

 

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/health/top-medical-advisor-offers-a-stark-warning-over-risks-of-health-cuts-1-6277623

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/health/news/article4193731.ece

 

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/midwives-wales-set-balloted-strike-7732024

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/nhs-crisis-nurse-morale-hits-4176868

 

http://www.lgcplus.com/briefings/joint-working/health/nhs-england-to-cut-a-quarter-of-senior-posts-in-major-shake-up/5074570.article?blocktitle=Latest-Local-Government-News&contentID=2249

 

http://www.gponline.com/campaigners-call-gp-revolt-nhs-england-meeting/article/1311017

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-28859371

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-29054062

 

 

 

Sorry I guess I made it up.....

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

Thinking politicans would never lie WOW.....

 

All politicians are economical with the truth and selective in their choice of words, but if you want an example of an outright lying politician look no further than Salmond.

 

"We have obtained legal advice which confirms that we won't have to reapply to get into the EU"

"OK, can we see it?"

"No, I'm not allowed to disclose this legal advice, but it is there, honest."

"Well I'm afraid we'll take you to court to force you to reveal it"

[salmond spends tens of thousands of pounds of our money trying to prevent the truth coming out]

Outcome:  there was no advice at all, it was a complete and sustained lie to make independence seem less problematic than it actually is. If Scotland had a critical press, it may well have resulted in his resignation.

Edited September 8, 2014 by Yngwie

[+DoofersDad]

That figure is only going to rise and you are going to leave it for your children and their children to deal with personally I cannot bring my self to do that and I DON'T even have any kids yet, so don't tell me the only risk to their future is with a yes vote....

 

I see little point about complaining about the UK debt when despite basing their economic case on top end oil revenue projections the SNP still see the need to borrow massively in the first few years of independence when the UK debt is likely to be reducing. 

[Ayeseetee]

 

Thinking politicans would never lie WOW.....

 

All politicians are economical with the truth and selective in their choice of words, but if you want an example of an outright lying politician look no further than Salmond.

 

"We have obtained legal advice which confirms that we won't have to reapply to get into the EU"

"OK, can we see it?"

"No, I'm not allowed to disclose this legal advice, but it is there, honest."

"Well I'm afraid we'll take you to court to force you to reveal it"

[salmond spends tens of thousands of pounds of our money trying to prevent the truth coming out]

Outcome:  there was no advice at all, it was a complete and sustained lie to make independence seem less problematic than it actually is. If Scotland had a critical press, it may well have resulted in his resignation.

 

 

 

On the other hand better together have said

 

We will not get in the eu but all david camereon has to do is ask but: "We are clear that we are not pre-negotiating the terms of separation from the UK ahead of the referendum.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/nov/01/alex-salmond-scotland-eu-membership

[Ayeseetee]

 

That figure is only going to rise and you are going to leave it for your children and their children to deal with personally I cannot bring my self to do that and I DON'T even have any kids yet, so don't tell me the only risk to their future is with a yes vote....

 

I see little point about complaining about the UK debt when despite basing their economic case on top end oil revenue projections the SNP still see the need to borrow massively in the first few years of independence when the UK debt is likely to be reducing. 

 

 

 

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/markets/article-2586351/National-debt-keeps-going-UK-sinks-deeper-red.html

 

 

So stay in the uk for more cuts YAY I wonder who will get them first if scotland votes no 

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Yngwie]

 

That figure is only going to rise and you are going to leave it for your children and their children to deal with personally I cannot bring my self to do that and I DON'T even have any kids yet, so don't tell me the only risk to their future is with a yes vote....

 

I see little point about complaining about the UK debt when despite basing their economic case on top end oil revenue projections the SNP still see the need to borrow massively in the first few years of independence when the UK debt is likely to be reducing. 

 

 

Indeed. The Scottish Government's own figures showed that we incurred a £12bn deficit in the most recent year, which worse per head than the UK, and that is even after the £500 a head subsidy we received from the rest of the UK (£1,300 additional public spending less £800 additional tax revenues we contribute due to oil).

 

So it's a pretty unhealthy starting point. From that, you then have the £2bn of set-up costs, followed by all sort of ambitious plans to spend more money on pretty much everything, in the face of long term decline in oil revenues. You don't need to be an economist to work out the outcome.

 

And then you've got the loss of tax revenues and jobs in the defence sector and much more significantly financial services which employs 200,000. To quote Robert Peston yesterday: "As I have mentioned before, Royal Bank of Scotland would announce an intention to move its home to England as and when a yes vote is declared (and I have just had it re-confirmed that RBS has a contingency plan to emigrate south of the border)" Standard Life too, and others.

 

Being concerned about national debt is not a valid reason to vote Yes, quite the opposite in fact.

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

Sorry I guess I made it up.....

 

Yes, you did.  There is the world of difference between cuts in service and cuts in funding.  I have given you a link to an official government website that explicitly states that total funding for the NHS in England has increased in real terms this last year.  Commisioning bodies who have the responsibility for spending that money have to make decisions on where that money will go.  A common theme is that some services are merged, typically where two old and inefficient hospitals are closed and replaced by a single and better equiped hospital.  Frequently local campaigns fight for the old hospital local to them to stay open and the closure is portrayed in the media as a "cut" when the reality is that a better and more efficient facility is being provided, often with resource being released for other priorities.  There will also be cases when some service is actually reduced to some extent to allow resource to be directed to a higher priority area which has been inappropriately underfunded before or where significantly better but more expensive treatments have emerged.  No matter how massively funding increases, there will always be some reallocation of funding which will be perceived as "cuts" by some.

 

Fact is that public spending on the NHS in England has increased year on year under the current Government.  Is your priority what is best for Scotland or to have an independent Scotland at any cost?  If it is what is best for Scotland,  can we please have a debate based on the facts? 

[Ayeseetee]

"I will cut the deficite not the NHS"

 

 

He is ******* cutting the nhs.... he did not say

 

"I will raise the budget given to the nhs, not up the deficite"

Edited September 8, 2014 by Ayeseetee

[Ayeseetee]

Ed Miliband: We will get the process of giving more powers to Scotland started 'right after' the referendum

 

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/ed-miliband-process-giving-more-4180098

 

 

[dougiedanger]

Some amount of panic on here by the unionists, even the inner UKIP making an appearance.

Face it boys, the union is dead, come on over to the right side.

[Ayeseetee]

Some amount of panic on here by the unionists, even the inner UKIP making an appearance.

Face it boys, the union is dead, come on over to the right side.

 

for any unionists

 

the orange order march is on the 13th

 

a nigel farage visit on the 14th

 

Keep your diaries clear!

[+DoofersDad]

"I will cut the deficite not the NHS"

 

 

He is ******* cutting the nhs.... he did not say

 

"I will raise the budget given to the nhs, not up the deficite"

 

So an increase in funding equates to cuts in your book then.