The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Laurence]

Dear Mr William Banks,

Scotland faces an immense decision in the 2014 referendum on independence. It is a decision which will impact upon the Scottish business community and could, in the case of separation, significantly alter the way Scotland does business with our partners in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, and the rest of the world.
 
I recently joined the Board of Directors at Better Together – the campaign making the positive case for Scotland remaining within the UK – because, as someone working in the business community, I understand the genuine concerns of entrepreneurs, investors and employees regarding the uncertainty of separation and the irreversible change it will mean for their livelihoods.
 
This decision about our country’s future demands a serious debate and in the months ahead it will be crucial for Scottish businesses to make their voices heard. We would therefore like to invite you to complete our short online survey.
 
 
Scottish businesses make a vital contribution to our society both socially and economically and we can and should be proud of the Scots’ entrepreneurial spirit. It is something to be celebrated, as is our trading relationship with our UK partners. For 300 years the Scottish business community has shared the risks and rewards of being part of the oldest and most successful single market in the world. We benefit from the stability of Sterling as our currency and from our place within the European Union  – why would we want to build barriers for business, risk changing our currency or jeopardise our negotiated terms in the EU? 
 
Scotland is stronger in partnership with the UK. Almost every country in the world is struggling in difficult economic times but within the UK 6 million Scots enjoy the financial security of 60 million people paying into our economy – particularly important when events like the global banking crisis threaten our businesses, mortgages and jobs. We are currently part of the 6^th largest economy in the world, making us better able to compete as part of a larger, more influential state in an increasingly global economy.
 
But separation would turn Scotland’s largest trading partner – the rest of the UK – into our competitor, and at a time of economic fragility the last thing Scottish business needs is more barriers to trade. 
 
Many business leaders have already expressed their concern about what separation could mean for the future of their companies and their employees and are wondering whether all the new rules and regulations that would come with setting up a new country are worth all the aggravation.
There is so much uncertainty about what the business landscape would look like in an independent Scotland; about taxation structure and how it would be implemented, whether new operating and trading regulations would mean more red tape and bureaucracy, and crucially on currency, whether Scotland would be able to keep the pound, change to the euro or adopt a new currency. These are just some of the many issues facing sole traders, small and medium enterprises and large corporations in the industrial, commercial and business sectors across Scotland.
 
It is right that the Scottish business community demand answers to the serious and  genuine questions the referendum debate raises and Better Together are keen to engage with businesses of every size and across every sector in Scotland. Please share your views,send us your questions and get involved in the debate. Scotland’s future is too important for you not to have a say. It should only take a few moments of your time.
 
You wouldn’t make decisions about your business without knowing all the facts - make sure you know what separation will mean for your business and your future.
 
We hope to hear from you soon.
 
Kind regards,
 
  Phil


Phil Anderton
Director

Better Together
t:  01412256288
e: [email protected]
 
Tell your friends about us
Donate to support our work.
Follow us on Twitter
Like us on Facebook

 

[Yngwie]

Couldn't be bothered reading the letter itself I'm afraid, but is that Phil Anderton the same one that was chief exec of Hearts and the SRU?

[Sneckboy]

Yeah, that's him. He's one of those 'career directors' who goes from company to company! It's a bit like the business version of football's managerial merry-go-round...same old faces!

[The Mantis]

Bit of a bad start if he can't even get the population right...........

It's your money they're after Laurie boy!

[IBM]

Laurence, you really need to get your security upgraded on your PC to stop this JUNK MAIL getting through!

[Laurence]

I'm beginning to thnk I am

 

Persona Non Grata

[Kingsmills]

Don't fall for it Laurence. Typical unionist scaremongering and misinformation. By the way, the fact that some other posters, perhaps even a majority, on this site don't share your views does not mean that you are unwelcome.

[PullMyFinger]

The real issue here is why is William Banks emails being sent to you? This would never, ever happen in an independent Scotland.

 

And yes, all political views are welcome, but please do a little background research before making outlandish claims.

[PullMyFinger]

Dear Mr William Banks,

Scotland faces an immense decision in the 2014 referendum on independence. It is a decision which will impact upon the Scottish business community and could, in the case of separation, significantly alter the way Scotland does business with our partners in England, Wales, Northern Ireland, and the rest of the world.

 

I recently joined the Board of Directors at Better Together – the campaign making the positive case for Scotland remaining within the UK – because, as someone working in the business community, I understand the genuine concerns of entrepreneurs, investors and employees regarding the uncertainty of separation and the irreversible change it will mean for their livelihoods.

 

This decision about our country’s future demands a serious debate and in the months ahead it will be crucial for Scottish businesses to make their voices heard. We would therefore like to invite you to complete our short online survey.

 

 

Scottish businesses make a vital contribution to our society  both socially and economically and we can and should be proud of the Scots’ entrepreneurial spirit. It is something to be celebrated, as is our trading relationship with our UK partners. For 300 years the Scottish business community has shared the risks and rewards of being part of the oldest and most successful single market in the world. We benefit from the stability of Sterling as our currency  and from our place within the European Union  – why would we want to build barriers for business, risk changing our currency or jeopardise our negotiated terms in the EU? 

 

Scotland is stronger in partnership with the UK. Almost every country in the world is struggling in difficult economic times but within the UK 6 million Scots enjoy the financial security of 60 million people paying into our economy – particularly important when events like the global banking crisis threaten our businesses, mortgages and jobs. We are currently part of the 6^th largest economy in the world, making us better able to compete as part of a larger, more influential state in an increasingly global economy.

 

But separation would turn Scotland’s largest trading partner – the rest of the UK – into our competitor, and at a time of economic fragility the last thing Scottish business needs is more barriers to trade. 

 

Many business leaders have already expressed their concern about what separation could mean for the future of their companies and their employees and are wondering whether all the new rules and regulations that would come with setting up a new country are worth all the aggravation.

There is so much uncertainty about what the business landscape would look like in an independent Scotland; about taxation structure and how it would be implemented, whether new operating and trading regulations would mean more red tape and bureaucracy, and crucially on currency, whether Scotland would be able to keep the pound, change to the euro or adopt a new currency. These are just some of the many issues facing sole traders, small and medium enterprises and large corporations in the industrial, commercial and business sectors across Scotland.

 

It is right that the Scottish business community demand answers to the serious and  genuine questions the referendum debate raises and Better Together are keen to engage with businesses of every size and across every sector in Scotland. Please share your views,send us your questions and get involved in the debate. Scotland’s future is too important for you not to have a say. It should only take a few moments of your time.

 

You wouldn’t make decisions about your business without knowing all the facts - make sure you know what separation will mean for your business and your future.

 

We hope to hear from you soon.

 

Kind regards,

 

  Phil

Phil Anderton

Director

Better Together

t:  01412256288

e: [email protected]

 

Tell your friends about us

Donate to support our work.

Follow us on Twitter

Like us on Facebook

 

 

Loltastic, how positive.

 

If anyone can be bothered, try doing the survey and saying you have no concerns at all about going independent. You can't as you must choose three of the following:-

 

Thinking about the impact separation would have on your business, please select which three issues are most important to you*

Defence

Taxation

Pensions

Currency

Employment Regulation

EU Membership

 

Wait for the front pages of the mainstream media with yet more doom and gloom.

 

Positive case? Your arse!

[FoolPhysio]

You are absolutely correct PMF. When the entire globe is experiencing a downturn, it is difficult to paint an illusion of a land of milk and honey. It is all just negative, negative, negative. Because that is the reality. But ignore of course that the UK, of which we are a part, is still a world leader and one of the G8 group of countries. Our presence is global and the strength both nationally and internationally comes from us being, even as a relatively small nation in terms of population and landmass, one United Kingdom.

The separationist dream is built on a vision where a socialist Republic of Scotland will soar into the stratosphere, unfettered by the burgeoning chains of the scurrilous machinations of an uncaring capitalist UK government who only want us for our oil, and we shall be free to make all the right decisions, the only decisions, that will see us all march happy and contented into the warm glow of a wonderful future. Oh take me there, please, I sooooooo want this to be true. And I will ignore the fact that while the SNP government are busy with the plan to rip ourselves away from a bigger political and economic entity, it is also busy consolidating all those annoyingly independent free spirits within our little society into National bodies. Mind you, it does give us a good indication of the difference between rhetoric and what we can actually expect though.

If wishes were horses . . .

[Alex MacLeod]

within the UK 6 million Scots enjoy the financial security of 60 million people paying into our economy

Would love to know where those figures came from. The UK population is around 63 million. Of that 2.5 million are unemployed, 11.5 million are over pension age and a further 11.5 million are under 16 years old.

 

As the population of Scotland stands at 5.3 million and a large number of those are migrants where does he get the 6 million Scots from?

Edited March 7, 2013 by Alex MacLeod

[Yngwie]

Those living in England, I suppose.

 

And as for the 60m its clearly another rounded number, but anyone who so much as buys a packet of sweeties is "paying into our economy".

[Laurence]

The real issue here is why is William Banks emails being sent to you? This would never, ever happen in an independent Scotland.

 

And yes, all political views are welcome, but please do a little background research before making outlandish claims.

 

 What do you mean the real issue - I don't understand that comment, the real issue is this pointless  exercise in bringing to a vote the asperations of a political party whose eyes are lighting up with the thoughts of outright power.

I am William Banks so I receive my e-mails ,  My Full name is William Laurence Banks, my father was William or Billy Banks, my mum didn't want big Bill and little Bill in the house so I was called Laurence.

 

On legel documents I do get addressed as William .

 

With regards to my e-mails I have very little security because it is a business e-mail address , I get a lot of orders through it, therefore I don't want to block any potential sales with security.

 

With regard to research, I am old enough to know my own mind, I don't need anyone else especially Salmond and Sturgeon telling me what to believe.

 

I was earning a living when they were in 3 cornered pants

 

I take independance to be like a divorce court. The judge asks why do you want a divorce to the wife?, who answers because I can manage on my own?.

It is not a case of managing it is a case of what is best for both partners, and divorce is not the answer.

 

We get a lot of talk on how we can manage as a separate state. But very little talk on why, we should want too.

 

Like I have said before my biggest worry is the Royal mail, if I lose the domestic rates to the UK, It will cost me at least £100 a week and probably more if the Royal mail leave Scotland. I travel a lot to England, I don't want to be paying for green card car Insurance, or getting a card to allow me to get medical facilities over the border, and if Scotland is forced by the EEC to join the Euro , to have to mess around with currency. Also when I travel abroad I want the back up of a UK passport, not some woolly document printed in Edinburgh  , where I will struggle to find a consulate or embassy to take care of me. Basically I don't want to live in a foreign country , Or I am sure hundreds and thousands of Scottish nationals living in England don't want to either.

 

This whole referendum business is a waste of money and time. I think the SNP are wasting a lot of public money on it.

 

I had a place in France for 17 years I know what a pain  travelling in a foreign land is. Why should the Scots want all this agro is beyond me,

 

As far as I can see just exercising the parish pump.

[Alex MacLeod]

Laurence, I think PMF was being a little pedantic.

 

As for your other points.....you have the right to read all you can on the subject of independance and to corulate your viewpoints on how you decypher the information.....and I admire that but dont invent what is not there. Dont invent what has not been said.

 

The so called 'Royal Mail' is in effect a private business that will continue to compete with other carriers to survive. That means it will need Scottish business as much as it does any other country's.

Some of your other points are just drivel. I dont need green card insurance or medical cards to travel to Ireland so why would things change because I travel to England? Why is your passport going to change? Would you not be one of those who may be entitled to dual nationality so, when Scotland issues her own passports, you can have two. As can all the Scots who qualify in England through residential status.

[PullMyFinger]

You are absolutely correct PMF. When the entire globe is experiencing a downturn, it is difficult to paint an illusion of a land of milk and honey. It is all just negative, negative, negative. Because that is the reality. But ignore of course that the UK, of which we are a part, is still a world leader and one of the G8 group of countries. Our presence is global and the strength both nationally and internationally comes from us being, even as a relatively small nation in terms of population and landmass, one United Kingdom.

The separationist dream is built on a vision where a socialist Republic of Scotland will soar into the stratosphere, unfettered by the burgeoning chains of the scurrilous machinations of an uncaring capitalist UK government who only want us for our oil, and we shall be free to make all the right decisions, the only decisions, that will see us all march happy and contented into the warm glow of a wonderful future. Oh take me there, please, I sooooooo want this to be true. And I will ignore the fact that while the SNP government are busy with the plan to rip ourselves away from a bigger political and economic entity, it is also busy consolidating all those annoyingly independent free spirits within our little society into National bodies. Mind you, it does give us a good indication of the difference between rhetoric and what we can actually expect though.

If wishes were horses . . .

 

Who gives a flying feck about the G8? There is a massive shift in global power happening now and G8 membership means nothing, I don't want or need to be paying for a global presence.

 

Could you be more patronising please? Yes supporters are more used to Paxman levels of condescendance.

 

Laurence, I think PMF was being a little pedantic.

 

As for your other points.....you have the right to read all you can on the subject of independance and to corulate your viewpoints on how you decypher the information.....and I admire that but dont invent what is not there. Dont invent what has not been said.

 

The so called 'Royal Mail' is in effect a private business that will continue to compete with other carriers to survive. That means it will need Scottish business as much as it does any other country's.

 

Some of your other points are just drivel. I dont need green card insurance or medical cards to travel to Ireland so why would things change because I travel to England? Why is your passport going to change? Would you not be one of those who may be entitled to dual nationality so, when Scotland issues her own passports, you can have two. As can all the Scots who qualify in England through residential status.

 

Lets take a look at our postal services then, Willie:-

 

What happens if Scotland votes YES?

 

Following independence, the Scottish government will take on the infrastructure currently owned by the Royal Mail in Scotland, and will create a Scottish Postal service to take over from the Royal Mail.

This new service will take over responsibility for the Universal Service Obligation in Scotland, and will negotiate agreements with all other postal services, including the remainder of the Royal Mail, to allow international deliveries to take place. In the short term, the new Scottish postal service will look very like the current service.

It will be up to future Scottish governments to decide how the Scottish Mail Service develops; how much is state controlled, how much in private hands, which services are offered etc.

It is likely that the current moves towards further privatisation will be halted, and some earlier privatisations may be reversed, in line with the policies of the main Scottish political parties.

What happens if Scotland votes NO?

Increasing privatisation will reduce the revenue available to the Royal mail, making it impossible for the Universal Service Obligation* to be met in full. [it is only guaranteed by act of Parliament until 2021]

There are three likely outcomes:

• rural and remote areas (e.g. Highlands and Islands) will no longer benefit from the same level of service as other areas;
• rural and remote areas will face special charging schemes to achieve the same level of service as other areas;
• charges for all postal services will increase.

It is likely that the future direction of the Post office will include aspects of all three.

 

*The Universal Service Obligation

 

The Universal Service Obligation is responsible for safeguarding the one price goes anywhere, affordable postal service to all UK addresses. It is regulated by Ofcom.

The Postal Services Act 2011 sets out the minimum requirements the Universal Service provider must deliver. These are statutory. They can only be altered with the consent of the UK Parliament. The Royal Mail is the designated provider of the Universal Service until at least 2021 (10 years from the passing of the Postal Services Act 2011).

This legislation ensures that no part of the UK is given a substantially worse service by the postal provider, regardless of the cost of achieving this.

[Yngwie]

The simple and irrefutable truth is that largely because we have so many rural/island communities, the cost of collecting and delivering an item of mail in Scotland is higher than it is for the UK as a whole. After independence, our UK partners will no longer have to pay extra for their postage to subsidise this, so extra money will have to come from somewhere if Scotland is avoid higher postal charges or reduced service.

[Kingsmills]

I wonder if the unionists could provide a comprehensive list of those nations who have become independent states who would, after taking responsibility for their own affairs, wish to revert to their former status ?

[Charles Bannerman]

I wonder if the unionists could provide a comprehensive list of those nations who have become independent states who would, after taking responsibility for their own affairs, wish to revert to their former status ?

There's a logical fallacy in that post Kingsmills. You are clearly trying to use it to suggest that separation would be "good" for Scotland. But what you are doing is to take as a "given" a scenario which has not actually come to pass before using that to assert that this scenario, on the basis of what you claim other countries think, would therefore be a good thing for Scotland. In short, you are trying to presume the outcome you seek as a lever to justify that outcome. That - as the universe's most famous Vulcan would say - "is not logical captain". You cannot use presumption of a situation in order to justify it.

Or would you accept in court the prosecution saying "On the assumption that this man is guilty of this crime, it is clear that he has the expertise to commit it so the jury must convict m'lud"?

The reality is that Scotland has not voted for separation and has never, in decades of polling, really looked like doing so. The least far it has come from that in the polls was in the immediate aftermath of Salmond getting his overall majority. But now people are clearly getting wise to him and his policies. So as the separatist case progressively unravels on the basis of monetary policy, defence, foreign policy, citizenship, the volatility of the price of the finite asset of oil etc etc, they are progressively reverting to common sense.

I see today that we have got "Nats predict 'new oil boom' as referendum approaches shock" headlines. Well they would... wouldn't they?

In the highly unlikely event of a "yes" vote for separation in the autumn of 2014 (yes folks - we've got another 19 months of this tedious crap to suffer before our lives can return to normal!) then that would be a unique departure from what has been, albeit not directly voted for, the settled will of the Scottish people for a very, very long time. As such, this would represent no more than an extremely unfortunate rush of blood to the head which - in the context of your original statement - would provide the classic counter example of "separate in haste, repent at leisure."

Edited March 11, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[+DoofersDad]

Charles, you contradict yourself.  If people did repent at leisure after separating in haste then there would be countries who voted for independence and now wish to revert to their former status. It is therefore a perfectly reasonable question to ask.  If you are unable to name any then that suggests that any country that may have separated in haste is, in fact, enjoying their independence at leisure.

[Charles Bannerman]

Charles, you contradict yourself.  If people did repent at leisure after separating in haste then there would be countries who voted for independence and now wish to revert to their former status. It is therefore a perfectly reasonable question to ask.  If you are unable to name any then that suggests that any country that may have separated in haste is, in fact, enjoying their independence at leisure.

Absoultely not. What Kingsmills' proposition implies is that as long as Scotland voted for separation, then that would make it a good thing simply because it had come to pass. That is attempting to use "after the fact" justification of something which is currently before the fact.

You can't simply say "Well look chaps, if you vote for separation, then that will make it good so therefore it is good, so therefore vote for it".

That doesn't hold water.

[+DoofersDad]

Charles, you contradict yourself.  If people did repent at leisure after separating in haste then there would be countries who voted for independence and now wish to revert to their former status. It is therefore a perfectly reasonable question to ask.  If you are unable to name any then that suggests that any country that may have separated in haste is, in fact, enjoying their independence at leisure.

Absoultely not. What Kingsmills' proposition implies is that as long as Scotland voted for separation, then that would make it a good thing simply because it had come to pass. That is attempting to use "after the fact" justification of something which is currently before the fact.

You can't simply say "Well look chaps, if you vote for separation, then that will make it good so therefore it is good, so therefore vote for it".

That doesn't hold water.

Rubbish.  What his proposition implies is that once people have voted for separation they don't want to go back.  I agree with you when you say "You can't simply say "Well look chaps, if you vote for separation, then that will make it good so therefore it is good, so therefore vote for it".  That doesn't hold water." - But that is not what is being said by the separatists.  What is being said is that if you think it is a good idea, vote for it because others who have had the courage to vote for change have not lived to regret it.

[Charles Bannerman]

No, what that proposition is trying to say is that if you vote for it, this will make it a good idea - which is a logical con.

And you also have to remember the rather more logical proposition that the vast majority of countries stay together either by not having a referendum or by voting no in one because they are very happy as they are. The only reason that we are having three years of incessant tedium about the one we have to have and having our lives thrown into uncertainty until this gets sorted out is that the SNP got lucky and came up against a Labour party which had become so inept that it provoked a protest vote on the way it had been running Holyrood's affairs.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Charles Bannerman

[Alex MacLeod]

My interpretation of what Kingsmill asked is "are there any, of the many, countries out there who have been granted, or won, independance in recent times wanting to revert to what they previously had"?

 

Its a simple question with a simple yes no answer but, like a politician, Charles avoids the answer by waffling a load of bull.

[Kingsmills]

Charles, you are an educated man. I can only assume that, for your own political purposes, you are being deliberately obtuse.

 

My question is a simple one. Doofers  Dad and Alex MacLeod have no difficulty in grasping the proposition and I feel certain you do too.

 

Do you have an answer to my said question that supports the cause you so clearly espouse ?

Edited March 12, 2013 by Kingsmills

[Charles Bannerman]

How else do I explain what seems to me to be a perfectly obvious observation in logic?

 

Scotland has not voted for separation and all the indications are, as any case presented for it crumbles more and more as the weeks go by, that it will not do so. That is because people are clearly unconvinced by the notion of breaking away.

It is therefore completely illogical to quote completely different scenarios where other groups HAVE decided this is in their best interests so you can make the case that it would also be in the best interests of Scotland.

Just because the Slovaks might like it, this doesn't mean to say that it is in the best interest of the Scots.

 

Mr Smith went to a football match and liked it so much that he bought a season ticket. As a result, Mr White assumes that it will be in Mr Jones' interests to buy one as well.

The only problem is that Mr Jones is a rugby fan with no interest at all in football.

Edited March 12, 2013 by Charles Bannerman