The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[+DoofersDad]

 

Why should the rules to vote in the referendum be any different to those for any election that determines the political direction of Scotland?  If ex pat scots were to be allowed to vote then how on earth would you define who is a Scot  and who is not.  The only way you can realistically vote is based on your residency.  If you have chosen to move away from Scotland then why should you have a vote which impacts on those of us who actually live here?

 

But this referendum is not like "any election".  It is about permanent independence for Scotland - the land of my birth and the country that defines my nationality and my passport.  It is about a matter which has the potential to significantly ( and permanently ) alter and affect my identity and status and the identity and status of all Scots living outside Scotland for the rest of their lives. Yet we/they are not allowed a voice! 

 

I am being told that because I don't live physically in Scotland I get no say in the matter of my Nationality, passport and status being changed forever.

 

I now know what it feels like to have my human rights ignored, abused and violated while people stand by unconcerned and uncaring.

 

One could also argue that folk in the rest of the UK will have their national identity changed if Scotland votes for Independence.  Of more significance is that if Scotland becomes independent there will be practical consequences for the citizens in what is left of the UK, but yet these folk don't get a vote.  In my view there is a far stronger argument for all voters in the UK to get a vote than for "Scots" who don't live in the UK.

 

And what exactly is a "Scot"?  It may well be that you were born and brought up in Scotland with parents who had lived most if not all of their lives in Scotland and therefore nobody would doubt your status as a Scot.  But the position is not as clear cut for some.  Just what is it that defines nationallity?  Is someone born in Scotland Scottish just because their "English" parents happened to be in Scotland when Mum went into labour?  Apart from the accident of their birth, they might never have been in Scotland in 50 years.  If they are Scottish, then it follows that someone who has lived all their life in Scotland with "Scottish" parents but who happened to have been born in Carlisle is not Scottish!  And there are a whole spectrum of scenrarios in between with parents none, one or both of which are "Scottish", folk who are adopted, people who have lived one year in Scotland or 5 or 10 or 25 or whatever period of time and any combination of those.  What combination of these factors makes you "Scottish"?  The bottom line is that in reality you are Scottish if you feel Scottish rather than because you satisfy some bureaucratic definition of nationality.  It is therefore totally impractical for "Scots" not on the electoral roll in Scotland to have a vote - just how do you propose it would be determined who would be entitled to vote? 

 

I was born and brought up in England of English parents and although I have lived in Scotland for most of my life I will always think of myself as English rather than British (certainly not Scottish!) but yet my passport does not define me as English - it would be nice if it did yet it may in future define me as Scottish.  Whether or not that affects my status and identity seems irrelevant to me.  Whatever my passport says, I'm English because I feel English.  What is relevant and important is that as a resident of Scotland upon whom Government decisions impact on a daily basis, I get a say in how Scotland is governed.  I really don't see why folk who see themselves as Scottish but who have decided not to live in Scotland and who therefore are not affected by the outcome of the vote in any practical day to day way should get a vote which impacts on those of us who, regardless of our origins, choose to live in Scotland and to be a part of Scottish Society. 

[Yngwie]

To be fair to Culduthel, it does seem a bit odd that a proud Scot currently living abroad has no vote whilst tens of thousands of East Europeans who come over just for this year's fruit picking season will be entitled!

[+DoofersDad]

On the contrary - I think it would be rather odd if folk who did not satisfy the requirements to be on the electoral register got a vote whilst those who do satisfy the requirements did not get a vote.  In practice, I imagine that very few fruit pickers will get themselves onto the electoral role.  We really can't cherry pick who gets a vote and who doesn't   

[Sneckboy]

"cherry pick"   Brilliant!

Including a pun in a response to a thorny issue!

[IBM]

Glad you are back Odquine I thought you had eloped with CB

[Scarlet Pimple]

It will never happen,IBM. T3wo totally different personalities and never the :smile:twain shall meet perhaps

 

Now, I have lived in Canada for over 40 years and  did carry a British Passport until the London Bureaucrats put the price of getting a renewed passport up to stratospheric heights. So I renewed my Canadian passport and find it works just as well when I visit Britain. No significant delays  at the airport of entry and no hassles thereafter because, once I am in Britain, so long as I can speak English and want to pay for a cup of tea at the Museum then Bob's Yer Uncle.

 

But as an ex-pat pensioner of the DSS in Britain, the very fact that I live in Vancouver only 100 K from Seattle in the U.S. means that I have not had a single increase in my DSS pension since it started and never will. Why? Because anyone living in an ex-Commonwealth country such as Canada,. S .Africa,. Aussieland or N/.Z,  will NEVER get their pension uprated for inflation under the tyrannical rule of the current British Government. This is the policy of the BRITISH Government just to save money. However if I live in Seattle or Berlin, Germany, or Toulouse, France, then miraculously these ex pat pensioners get an inflation increase once per year. How much does the London Government save  by doing this--0.5% of the total pension budget for the year, that's ALL.

So would I ever vote for these criminal, vicious self-serving thugs in suits? Never.

 

The problem is that I may come back to live in Scotland but that is very unlikely since my wife's sons are  now firmly started on their career paths and doing rather well actually. This huge country is not perfect  but there is much more freedom and more scope to grow and thrive for those with initiative and a capacity for hard work so, if you are unhappy in Great Britain then emigrate to Canada. But I won't attempt to exercise my right to vote since it is very unlikely to affect my future life. My personal view is that this may be the only chance you will ever have to  throw off the yoke of the parochial Westminster politicians.

 

Does the born Scot,  Cameron give a damn about Scotland per se? Not a chance ,because he is now firmly attached at the hip in a position of power to the Westminster power base  and I trust him not. Not ever,never!  

 

And for the lad in New Zealand who may want to learn more about the World Alliance of British Pensioners setb up years ago to fight the London Government to the bitter end on this pensions discrimination issue faced by all expats living in ex Commonwealth countries, just send me a PM an d then vote for Scottish independence.

[culduthel]

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

[Oddquine]

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

 

All the uncertainty is a deliberate construct of the Westminster Government, who currently have a plan A.which is that Scotland will vote NO and they don't have to do anything......and Plan B is only going to be thought about from the 19th September.....or likely later as they are in recess then....so it will probably be after the holidays...according to the Scottish Secretary of State (well, he didn't say anything about the holidays). All we can ,and have, told you is what, if Westminster stops  pouting and huffing, should happen if they are going to take any notice of the terms of the Edinburgh Agreement.  Right now, if your passport needs renewed......it will be with a UK one....which will last as long as the passport lasts. In any event, you will be able to use your current passport until it runs out.

 

What are you looking for people to tell you, anyway?  Do you want to be a Scottish citizen if we vote YES.....or do you want to be a citizen of rUK if we vote YES.....because your nationality won't be changing at all...it is your citizenship that will change from being a UK citizen to one or other of Scotland or rUK........or if the rUK does sensible and pragmatic, and you aren't a citizen of another country, you could have dual  Scottish/rUK citizenship. 

 

You have a right to a nationality already, and you are not arbitrarily being deprived of your nationality any more than you would be if you had a  vote in the referendum and voted for the losing  side...and you certainly aren't being denied your right to change your nationality...if nationality=citizenship.  I had a look at some EU and UN nationality stuff, including some EU ones which the UK hasn't signed up to...and it seems to me as if it is primarily intended to reduce statelessness due to the actions of Governments/Civil war etc....and not a vehicle to let people demand a right to vote in a Referendum, after which, if the vote is YES  the country of which they are a citizen will cease to exist anyway.......because even if you lost your UK citizenship..you would automatically be a Scottish citizen..and at no stage would you be stateless..though as it is a splitting in two of a previous state, you might possibly get to choose of which state you wanted to be a citizen.

 

Rather think you would be whistling into the wind re minority status in a world wide Scottish diaspora.....and as far as I  can see, there are no legal challenges under Human Rights Law.......because The ECHR ruling (and human rights case law) does not relate to referendums, so prisoners living in Scotland aren't entitled to a vote either, even if they permanently live here and are Scots by birth. . Does that make you feel less put upon?

[PullMyFinger]

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

 

Not 100% certain but I believe this to be the case.

 

Precedent is that you can continue to have British passport and can also have Scottish passport if you so wish. Dual nationality is not a new phenomena. If you currently have dual nationality, then you will need to choose which passport you forfeit if you wish to have a Scottish passport.

[dougiedanger]

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

 

Bit more drama plz.

[Scarlet Pimple]

Pull My Finger you have hit the nail upon the head, I think.

 

Currently I have dual citizenship but I no longer use a British passport. But whqat happens after that I really don't think anyone really knows at this juncture. We will have to wait for the outcome of the vote before the charges and counter charges will be levelled. Or decisions on this point will be made.

 

I think my Nationality is British and Canadian , if that is possible, because I have the former by birth and the latter by swearing the oath at the ceremony you go through with the official at the podium and the Mountie standing alongside the Canadian flag resplendent in dress uniform. Which is followed by getting an identity card attesting to your citizenship.

 

I am sure New Zealand will have a similar procedure like the rest of the ex Commonwealth countries .

[Oddquine]

Been browsing a lot today......and there is a best seller to come for somebody who writes a book to record for posterity  all of the lies and manipulation used against the democratic right of the Scottish People to have a fairly conducted Referendum on Independence....simply to ensure the jobs and future riches of 53 Scottish Constituency MPs, and the UK position as a nuclear power, punching above their weight in the world.....regardless of the outcome of the referendum.

 

Think I might put some of them on here from time to time...CB might be looking for an idea for another book.

 

I notice there is a new registered participant in the Independence Campaign.on the Better Together side...Vote No Borders. It is a company based in London, backed by a London-based Scottish Tory millionaire. Now, maybe I'm a shade conspiracy theorist, but that same millionaire, who is paying for the vehicle to try  to encourage Scots to remain in the Union, is Malcolm Offord.   Got that off Wings http://wingsoverscotland.com/while-were-investigating/   There's a lot more info on there, but I'm trying to be less verbose, so  you can read it for yourselves.  Have to say if you want facts on the Independence debate, with a bit of usually tongue in cheek analysis of the the stuff in the MSM,.then Wings is the place to get it.

 

The conspiracy theory comes in because that same Malcolm Offord wrote a paper called Bankrupt Britain at a time when Labour was in power, the National Debt was £850 billion and the Pension black hole was at least £650 billion, and he made a good case. He must be bricking it now his party has been in power since 2010, has increased National Debt to currently approx £1.3 trillion and the Pension black hole to around £5 trillion.......and Scotland is threatening to go taking nearly 10% of the UK's income with it.  Have to say, if he thought Britain was bankrupt in 2008, it's not very nice of him trying to persuade us to stay and go bankrupt with them, is it?

 

The CBI heid bummers are either so incompetent that they are kidding themselves, and their members, that they are actually businessmen, or it is the biggest chancer organisation in the UK, after the UK Government...or the Electoral Commission is biased....and, if so, we need international observers in to oversee the conduct of the election.  Despite John Cridland on record in the media as claiming the decision to campaign officially in the referendum on the side of the Union was a bold democratic move.....following the resignations of a number of businesses and organisations in Scotland, he then basically claimed "Wisna me, guv..... a wee boy done it and ran away".

 

The CBI, an umbrella group lobbying Government on behalf of some fairly important industries and businesses, appears not to check anything before it leaves the office (maybe they have learned that from the OBR, which doesn't appear to check figures, or conclusions extrapolated from them, before inflicting them on us as "authoratitive" and "independent"). Again, in conspiracy theory mode......one does wonder if that was not a deliberate ploy to test the water...and the reaction  by members, and the speed of it, caught them by surprise. It does not appear that the Electoral Commission actually knows which Tom, Dick or Harry should be signing the registration application, if we are going to take their word for the fact that they accepted and actioned a registration document which had been signed by an unauthorised person. So you pays your money and you makes your choice....one of them is coming it......and one of them is covering their backside...or they are covering each others backsides. It rather begs the question that, if there hadn't been the hooh-hah, would the registration have stood.

 

By the way, the BBC confirms that the CBI registration "was an honest mistake."  Yeah! Right!

Edited May 1, 2014 by Oddquine

[Oddquine]

Seemingly a proposal that we swap oil for debt has been proposed by the National Institute of Economic and Social Research

 

http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/referendum-news/economist-proposed-iscotland-deal-to-swap-oil-reserves-for-share-of-uk-debt.1398862713

 

They really do think our heads button up the back. Apart from the fact that they are  saying that Scotland has 84 % of the oil...so in other words they think they are going to be able to hang on to the 6000 square miles and the 6% of the oil and gas they nicked in 1999, they're looking to grab  even more.

 

Just goes to show that Project Fear it is all about the oil (and Trident)

 

Dr Armstrong argued such a deal could work because it can be "quite problematic" for smaller countries to deal with assets which are "highly volatile", such as fluctuating oil revenues as Norway, of course has found.

 

But he said the debt-for-oil swap proposed depended on an independent Scotland and the rest of the UK being able to reach an agreement on what the oil reserves are worth.   We certainly wouldn't be taking the Government's OBR poodles calculations on oil and gas value, as they haven't managed to get it right from one year to the next.   Mind you, I suppose we could maybe let them keep some of what they have already stolen as full and final payment.and get out  with no debt. 

 

Found this interesting too  http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/may/01/treasury-economy-recovery-hype-growth-osborne-crash-risk

 

James Meadway, a former UK government policy adviser at the Treasury, has criticised Chancellor George Osborne's claim  that newly released GDP figures prove "Britain is coming back." He argues that the government's relentless pursuit of stringent austerity and expansion of household debt is reinforcing the risk of a major economic crash

Edited May 2, 2014 by Oddquine

[culduthel]

 

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

 

Bit more drama plz.

 

 

 

dougiedanger   -   I am trying very hard to achieve the level of drama exhibited by a few of the more frequent posters on this topic but it is not easy.  I am not a natural drama Queen/King.  So I am doing the best I can to match them but it is obvious that they are past masters in the art and have had countless years of practice.

[Oddquine]

 

 

Nationality is a legal bond between a state and an individual.  Also The Universal Declaration Of Human Rights states that everyone has the right to a nationality and no one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality. Possession of a nationality carries with it the diplomatic protection of the country of nationality.  This referendum has the potential to change all that for me and all other Scots living overseas. Yet we are not allowed a say or a voice in the matter. 

 

No one posting here so far has been able or capable of telling me what will happen to our nationality status should Scotland cede from Britain. This is because they do not know and they do not have clue what will happen. They are just trusting that she'll be right mate as they say here in NZ. Not a very clever way to make a decision about your nationality and your future.  Also no one has presented a compelling or sound argument as to why we the minority group that live overseas should not be included in the vote. I feel an appeal to the UN and the European Commission coming on given our minority status.

 

Bit more drama plz.

 

 

 

dougiedanger   -   I am trying very hard to achieve the level of drama exhibited by a few of the more frequent posters on this topic but it is not easy.  I am not a natural drama Queen/King.  So I am doing the best I can to match them but it is obvious that they are past masters in the art and have had countless years of practice.

 

 

If you are currently in New Zealand, whatever the status you have in that country is, which is not clear at all, why do you feel so impelled to try very hard to achieve the level of drama exhibited by a few of the more frequent posters on this topic? What exactly does the debate on our life and our future, in a country in which you no longer live, through choice, have to do with you......really?  Referenda do not come under any laws outside the country in which they apply and voting in them is not a right under any international law currently in force....so live with it!

 

I think that there is nothing more hypocritical and self-serving (bar maybe the opinions of pro-Union Scottish constituency MPs in Westminster, who will get thrown off the Westminster gravy train if we vote for Independence) than people who were born brought up and educated in Scotland, but no longer live there, trying to keep all of us wedded to UK Governments which instituted the same circumstances which persuaded/encouraged/forced them out in the first place.

 

The original "positive" case for the Union, in the "new positve campaign" which started last Monday, says, apart from the absolute and utter lie that they can guarantee any further devolution of any kind, the Better Together campaign also said that there would be "more job opportunities as part of the UK". however, the job opportunities as part of the UK has never been the problem..they have existed, furth of Scotland, since 1707..but what has definitely not  been guaranteed in the current "NO" campaign, or has happened in the last 307 years, is permanent  job opportunities in  Scotland for those of us who want to stay here. In 1707, Scotland had one fifth of the population of England..currently we have less than one tenth....and that is because Scots have had to leave Scotland to get job opportunities...and which is why there are lots more people descended from Scots in the diaspora than in Scotland, some of whom are whining because they can't vote in the referendum.

 

I'm afraid I can't see that  a Union, which has managed to reduce the numbers of Scots living and working here to that extent, as a success (and if we are going to be really picky...the descendants of born Scots who existed in 1707 are a helluva lot less than the current Scottish population and we would be nowhere near 8.3% of the UK population in numbers now  if not for the immigration from England, other UK countries and elsewhere.)

 

But, hey.......if you can convince me that you, in New Zealand,and  my Cousins in Australia, the families of two of my my great uncles in Canada, and a great aunt in Australia, descendants of my great great uncles in Tasmania  are examples of the utter success of the Union for Scotland......I am prepared to listen.

Edited May 3, 2014 by Oddquine

[Alex MacLeod]

Why is it that only the Scots who live in Scotland get to vote on Independence?  Surely the Scots who live outside of Scotland and outside of the U.K. have the right to vote on Scottish Independence -  and if not -  why not?

 

Personally I would like to vote in this referendum.  I am a Highlander born and bred. Like many of my compatriots I am now living overseas ( in NZ ).  Surely we are all entitled to vote.  

Second point first. You choose to live and pay taxes in another country. Why should you have the right to decide the destiny of those of us who choose to stay in the country of our birth?

 

First point. It is not only the Scots who live in Scotland that get the vote. Its also the English, French, Italians, Irish, Welsh, Pakistanis, Indians, Polish, Romanians and every other nationality that have chosen to live in Scotland.

[Alex MacLeod]

Just had a glance through all the 'Nationality' stuff. I believe I'm right in saying that, if legalities are the arguement, Scottish is not recognised around the world as an official nationality. With that in mind all those who are worried about loss of nationality should consider that that can't happen. We are all British and no matter the outcome of referendum we will all remain British. That is the official nationality of our birth and Britian is the island we were born in.

[gordieict]

Just had a glance through all the 'Nationality' stuff. I believe I'm right in saying that, if legalities are the arguement, Scottish is not recognised around the world as an official nationality. With that in mind all those who are worried about loss of nationality should consider that that can't happen. We are all British and no matter the outcome of referendum we will all remain British. That is the official nationality of our birth and Britian is the island we were born in.

 

What about future generations who are born in an independent Scotland should the yes vote win?

 

Not that it bothers me personally as I am always Scottish first in my mind 

[PullMyFinger]

 

Just had a glance through all the 'Nationality' stuff. I believe I'm right in saying that, if legalities are the arguement, Scottish is not recognised around the world as an official nationality. With that in mind all those who are worried about loss of nationality should consider that that can't happen. We are all British and no matter the outcome of referendum we will all remain British. That is the official nationality of our birth and Britian is the island we were born in.

 

What about future generations who are born in an independent Scotland should the yes vote win?

 

Not that it bothers me personally as I am always Scottish first in my mind 

 

 

My opinion

 

As rUK's & Scotland's foreign policies diverge, Scot's overseas will see hosts becoming more hospitable to them than rUK natonals.

[starchief]

Do you mean people like al Quaeda and associates?  I disagree with that.  They've had no problems killing anyone, be they British, French, German, Egyptian, Kenyan, Pakastani or anyone not part of their ideaology.

[PullMyFinger]

Do you mean people like al Quaeda and associates?  I disagree with that.  They've had no problems killing anyone, be they British, French, German, Egyptian, Kenyan, Pakastani or anyone not part of their ideaology.

 

Anyone that thinks terrorist organisations would welcome anyone at all other than like minded people are mistaken. What is the point you're failing to make?

[starchief]

Well, it's a point that you failed to explain that I was replying to, hence why I began with a question.  Don't bother to reply though.  A bad attitude to a reasonable response gets you ignored.

[PullMyFinger]

Well, it's a point that you failed to explain that I was replying to, hence why I began with a question.  Don't bother to reply though.  A bad attitude to a reasonable response gets you ignored.

 

You think it a reasonable response is to imply I include Al Quaeda in a general statement where I make a specific reference to our foreign policy diverging from rUK's. And I'm the one with a bad attitude?

[Oddquine]

 

Just had a glance through all the 'Nationality' stuff. I believe I'm right in saying that, if legalities are the arguement, Scottish is not recognised around the world as an official nationality. With that in mind all those who are worried about loss of nationality should consider that that can't happen. We are all British and no matter the outcome of referendum we will all remain British. That is the official nationality of our birth and Britian is the island we were born in.

 

What about future generations who are born in an independent Scotland should the yes vote win?

 

Not that it bothers me personally as I am always Scottish first in my mind 

 

 

My take on it......and only the impression I get from my reading.......if YES vote wins, Scotland, in 2016, will become an "official" nationality, if nationality=citizenship, confirmed by the right to have a Scottish Passport.  Scotland already has a choice of national identities, Scottish or British..but only British is the "official" nationality, which is a purely political construct, subsuming the English/Welsh/Irish(or at least NI) national identities as well as ours....because the UK is the sovereign state.  After Independence all that will change, in that  British will become a national identity related to geography......more on the lines of the Scandinavian or European ones, for those who want to think of themselves that way..while Scotland will become a sovereign state with a voice in the world with our own "official" Scottish nationality.  Right now, we are the equivalent of the likes of the Basques, the Catalans and the Cornish (bar we don't get minority status in the UK)

 

So future generations born in Scotland after a YES vote and Independence Day will be Scottish citizens, while those of us living in Scotland now, and until then, will be what our passports say we are. After 2016, as far as I can see, the choice is ours...though that would likely depend on how rUK  decides to deal with us re dual nationality etc.  The IOM population, being a Crown protectorate, albeit with much more powers than a Scottish Parliament (or even an NI Parliament) are still officially British citizens  with British passports....but as they (and the Channel Islands) are not in the EU, they have a caveat printed on their British passports, afaik, saying they have no free right of passage in the EU.

 

Kinda makes one wonder, if we vote for Independence, and stay in the EU..... and the rUK comes out of the EU,  if choosing to continue using a British passport would be overly useful as a plus point.

Edited May 5, 2014 by Oddquine

[Oddquine]

Was reading a new, to me at least, blog today, here  http://grousebeater.wordpress.com/ and wandered further in to look at some of his previous posts.....to find this one....http://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2014/05/02/an-essay-in-betrayal-2/.which immediately attracted my interest, as I'm keen on history and Scotland....and combining both just now with an independence slant in addition, is as good, imo, as cuddling up in bed with Zippy, my hot water bottle, and his wee pal, a mug of black coffee with the addition of a dollop of Amaretto, plus a bag of Werther's Originals and some light reading by Ian Rankin or Stuart MacBride or the like...and that is just utter bliss!

The first thing that struck me was the title page, which says, and I quote (but I can't do the funny f for S shape) An Historical Essay, shewing that the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland is Imperial and Independent. Wherein the Gross Mistakes of a late Book, Entitled The Superiority and direct Dominance of the Imperial Crown and Kingdom of England over the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland, and of some other Books to that Purpose are Exposed.With an Appendix, Containing the Copies of some  WRITS and SEALS, which illustrate this Subject. It was written by James Anderson A.M, Writer to Her Majesties Signet, and printed in Edinburgh in 1705.

And the second was this  OUR Independence hath of late not only been attack’d first in Historical Treatises, but also we are insulted by a querulous reviling Pamphlet, set forth under the title of “Select Fables.” And beside there’s very lately published a plagiary Treatise of the Account of Scotland. This obliges Us, by the necessity of self defence, after repeated attempts upon the Sovereignty of our Crown, to vindicate our just right of Independency, and to lay open the unbecoming artifices, that have been used in the Claim of Homage.

The design of this Treatise, is to evince, that the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland, is Imperial, and Independent; and that the pretences for the Homage Claim’d by England from Scotland, are chiefly founded upon Forgeries, vitiated or patcht up Laws, Fables, and extorted acknowledgments: which are the very signs of England’s bad cause.

Seems to me that, 309 years on...not a lot has changed in the attitude of Westminster to Scotland and Scots when it comes to our independence from them, particularly re the Superiority and direct Dominance of the Imperial Crown and Kingdom of England over the Crown and Kingdom of Scotland.which is exactly what happened in the Union, as far as England is concerned.... as evidenced by the Westminster claim that the Act of Union "extinguished " Scotland........and precisely why they are fighting, with lies, myths, misrepresentation and spin to hang on to their only remaining wholly controlled "colony" (which just happens to have oil and a lot of useful space for storing nuclear weapons and over which to practise live bombing).

 

Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.