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The Big Scottish Independence Debate


Laurence

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-no-future/#more-31055

 

This is what you’re voting for if you vote No.

 

1. The end of the NHS
(more)

2. The end of universal health care free at the point of use
(more)

3. Privatisation of the police

4. Thousands made homeless by the Bedroom Tax
(more)

5. The rich getting richer
(more) (don’t expect Labour to be any different)

6. The highest child poverty in the Western world
(and growing all the time)

7. Another 300,000 public-sector job losses

8. No votes for the unemployed

9. The continuing persecution of the disabled

10. The poor driven to suicide
(more) (more)

11. The income of nurses, teachers and soldiers slashed

12. Scotland to keep subsidising the Treasury
(more)

13. More collusion in torture

14. £100bn spent on Trident
(stationed on the Clyde because it’s too dangerous for England)

15. The continuing mass exodus of Scotland’s youth
(sporting talent too)

16. Drastic reductions in access to higher education
(coming soon to Scotland)

17. Slashed benefits for the elderly
(is there an echo in here?)

18. The evisceration of the Royal Mail
(in preparation for privatisation)

19. Corrupt banks acting above the law because they’re “too big to fail”

20. The UK leaving the European Union

21. The repeal of the Human Rights Act

22. The removal of the rights of injured workers

23. The removal of workers’ rights in general
(as fast as possible)

24. £5bn of Scottish money spent on English infrastructure
(also including Crossrail, HS2 and more, all without Barnett consequentials)

25. New nuclear power stations

26. Hundreds of thousands more people in fuel poverty

27. More cripplingly expensive PFI projects

28. Expansion of the House Of Lords
(why that’s bad)

29. The poor subsidising the rich in local government funding

30. MPs demanding enormous pay rises
(despite already costing us £250,000 a day in expenses alone)
(and still cheating to get even more)

31. More and more people queueing at food banks
(and being abused for it)

32. Forced unpaid labour for the sick and disabled
(forever, or else)

33. More working families living in poverty

34. Welfare cuts to bribe the wealthy

35. Social cleansing of the poor from cities
(more)

36. More (and worse) urban riots

37. Wage cuts for anyone outside south-east England

38. Children going hungry in schools to save money

39. Unprecedented intrusion into citizens’ homes
(yes, even more than under Labour)

40. Unprecedented surveillance in public
(so don’t be thinking of protesting about any of this stuff)

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Very good disassembly of my post, PMF. Well done you. Unsure where you get some of your statistics however, but I really have neither the time nor the political knowledge to refute any of your points so you win.

However, if you are unclear as to why many Scots are simply not going to vote Yes then post #66 illustrates it beautifully.

Remember, in this age of X-Factor and IACGMOOH, it is image and not substance that seems to appeal most to the populace. Unfortunately.

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 I really have neither the time nor the political knowledge to refute any of your points so you win.

 

You don't have the knowledge? But you're happy to repeatedly post your own opinion/rhetoric and append the word 'fact' to it?

 

Also it appears that you are convinced by post 66 so in voting no it's just a few principles you are lacking  :whistle:

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No, I am getting bored with the aggressive and sanctimonious attitude of the yes-vote proponents who are getting more and more agitated that their evangelical message of hope and prosperity seems to be failing to make a massive swing in their favour.

I am content that I know what I will be voting in 2014, and even more content that I am siding with a majority (not something I say very often) so I don't need to make a case for what I believe in. I am not the one on the back foot.

I should have said detailed political knowledge - I have no better knowledge of the political scene than the average man on the street. Again, I don't need to. I make a contribution to the economy and my community through gainful employment and volunteering, my life is not unduly stressed by any of the decisions any of the various governmental bodies have over me at national, regional or local level. And that is unlikely to change even if the nation I am a part of is changed. As I said before, I personally will be no better off nor any worse even if we were independent, except a lot of my tax money would be wasted on brand changing and having to pay directly for things that we only contributed towards as a pooled pot previously. And having to hear people drip on about how Holyrood ignores us instead of how Westminster ignores us.

The Who said it succinctly - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

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At the end of the day, I think the arguments for or against separation are going to be largely irrelevant.  People understand three key points.  The first is that voting for independence would be a huge historical change and that there is a significant degree of uncertainty about what the longer term implications of that would be.  The second is that life within the UK is generally not too bad - after all, it's not like the former Soviet nations where the Russian tanks rolled in if the natives got a bit restless.  The third is that we get a fair bit of say about our own destiny already through the Scottish Parliament.

 

So there will be aspects of the "Yes" campaign which people may find very attractive but they are not going take that leap of faith and vote for it.  It's a bit like parachute jumping - lots of people think it looks very exciting but are happy just to watch other people do it. 

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No, I am getting bored with the aggressive and sanctimonious attitude of the yes-vote proponents who are getting more and more agitated that their evangelical message of hope and prosperity seems to be failing to make a massive swing in their favour.

I am content that I know what I will be voting in 2014, and even more content that I am siding with a majority (not something I say very often) so I don't need to make a case for what I believe in. I am not the one on the back foot.

I should have said detailed political knowledge - I have no better knowledge of the political scene than the average man on the street. Again, I don't need to. I make a contribution to the economy and my community through gainful employment and volunteering, my life is not unduly stressed by any of the decisions any of the various governmental bodies have over me at national, regional or local level. And that is unlikely to change even if the nation I am a part of is changed. As I said before, I personally will be no better off nor any worse even if we were independent, except a lot of my tax money would be wasted on brand changing and having to pay directly for things that we only contributed towards as a pooled pot previously. And having to hear people drip on about how Holyrood ignores us instead of how Westminster ignores us.

The Who said it succinctly - meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

 

This is thing though, you get your knowledge from the main stream media who have an agenda. Last week when the GERS figures were released showing that as a country we contribute 9.9% of revenue but receive 9.3% of spending, where and how was this reported and by whom? On internet blogging sites. See here http://wingsoverscotland.com/gers-between-the-lines/

This is how BBC reported it. http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/6885-bbc-scotland-hard-core-on-war-footing-as-the-battle-for-minds-heats-up

 

 

Scotland’s estimated net fiscal balance was a deficit of £7.6bn (or 5.0% of Scotland’s GDP). The UK’s equivalent position was a deficit of £121bn (or 7.9% of GDP), meaning that Scotland is in significantly better financial shape than the UK as a whole.

 

What was the mainstream media reporting? A poorly copied document doctored to make it look confidential ("TOP SECRET") that was leaked and then used by the Better Together campaign.

http://wingsoverscotland.com/would-you-like-to-know-more/

 

 

 

Maybe he prefers this?

 

 

Excellent demonstration of your rapier wit yet again PMF.

Very much out of the SNP handbook no doubt - when you have nothing positive to say, ridicule the opposition.

Yawn.

 

Mmmm hmmmm

 

Here's another that may interest you.

 

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/scottish-opinion/6908-scottish-oil-and-natural-gas-will-last-for-well-over-one-hundred-years

 

Get your own news, think for yourself and join the debate. It's your future, it's our future, Scotlands future.

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Very good disassembly of my post, PMF. Well done you. Unsure where you get some of your statistics however, but I really have neither the time nor the political knowledge to refute any of your points so you win.

However, if you are unclear as to why many Scots are simply not going to vote Yes then post #66 illustrates it beautifully.

Remember, in this age of X-Factor and IACGMOOH, it is image and not substance that seems to appeal most to the populace. Unfortunately.

 

You are just showing your complete ignorance here. You are voting no and you don't really know why or have any reason to back up your opinion or argue against facts from the Yes side. If you do not have the knowledge then you should be an undecided and attempt to find the knowledge. To just say you are voting no but have no political knowledge to refute pro independence is total ignorance.

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I wonder if the independence campaign forums have such heated debates going on about the likely outcome and implications of tomorrow's game between ICT and County?

 

  1. Is the thread title not clear enough?
  2. Please direct me to a political forum where I can converse with anyone interested in the debate, not just confirmed yes voters.
  3. The implications of tomorrows game will not affect the lives of a nation.
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OOPS! Do I detect a smattering of bitterness and sniping entering the door. What seems to have started out as a rather interesting dissertation about North Sea Oil has now turned into something completely different.

Typical deterioration into political thrashing around.. Same as here(in British Columbia, Canada)where the local B.C. Government has been spending wads of tax revenue on T.V. ads designed to show them up in a good light since they still have a dream of being elected in two months time. That dream, as everybody knows, will soon end in a shambolic nightmare for them.

And of course we also have the political ads and those from the Enbridge Pipeline boys inundating us with placatory assurances that any oil spill in the pristine waters of the North Pacific off the Northern Coast of B.C. will immediately be contained, cleaned up and will pose no threat to anybody or any wildlife.

The last oil spill in the North West Pacific Coast of B.C. was that of the Torrey Canyon over twenty years ago and they are STILL cleaning up the mess settled on the shores of Northern B.C.

What Enbridge is all about is the Alberta oil sands, distribution by pipeline across Alberta and Northern B.C. by buried pipeline and huge container ships berthing at an obscure newly-built terminal at Prince Rupert. Special ship pilots have been assigned to ensure that these huge vessels do not go aground but what is missing from this scenario are assurances that no oil will ever be spilled.

And we all remember the terrible sea-floor blowout about a year or so ago off the South Coast of the USA that decimated the Southern Coastline and poses undefined threats on a continuous basis for many, many years to come.

It all reminds me of the saying that the "The bad men do lives after them whilst the good is oft forgotten" or words to that effect. Oil is short lived , as has been pointed out in the initial part of this thread, and the revenue will run out quicker than anybody may think so what are short-term Governments doing to provide for future expenses? Generally speaking, nothing! So, friends, one Government will be much like another.

For overseas posters could someone please post a Glossary of Abbreviations ASAP because PPI to me means Plan Position Indicator from the days when I was in the RAF as a radar operator.-i.e a computer display. I know it is the modern way of communicating but not all of us are young, constantly-texting hotshots--just guys trying to keep up. Smile.

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Very good disassembly of my post, PMF. Well done you. Unsure where you get some of your statistics however, but I really have neither the time nor the political knowledge to refute any of your points so you win.However, if you are unclear as to why many Scots are simply not going to vote Yes then post #66 illustrates it beautifully.Remember, in this age of X-Factor and IACGMOOH, it is image and not substance that seems to appeal most to the populace. Unfortunately.

You are just showing your complete ignorance here. You are voting no and you don't really know why or have any reason to back up your opinion or argue against facts from the Yes side. If you do not have the knowledge then you should be an undecided and attempt to find the knowledge. To just say you are voting no but have no political knowledge to refute pro independence is total ignorance.

But he's quite safe. Those nice toffs from Eton will look after us all when we vote no!

 

I'm sure THEY won't lie to us like our very own government did when the oil was discovered, and I'm sure they'll relocate those nasty missiles to Devonport or somewhere! After all, that nice Philip Hammond is removing most of the actual humans so I expect the missiles will be next!

 

I'm sure THEIR American chums won't care too much and don't have any say in it at all!

 

I'm sure, being nice Europhiles, THEY'LL not listen to those nasty UKIP people with their 'Wogs Begin at Calais' philosophy.

Having said that, you need to keep people out. I mean, Scotland is absolutely bursting at the seams with people already isn't it? You can hardly drive down the A9 these days without hitting somebody! Or maybe that's the sheep, I get a bit confused sometimes.

 

If all that fails, we've still got good old Labour to save us! THEY don't care two hoots about their careers! Even the ones who secretly want Independence!

They know that, even after Independence, the good old folks in Surrey will vote them in (it worked with Foot & Kinnock after all) and the nasty old Tories out! No, they don't need Scottish votes at all!

As long as they can save Scotland from that nasty one man band/despot/dictator that's the main thing!

Edited by TheMantis
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You are so right. Maybe I shouldn't bother voting at all then . . .

Happy now?

 

I'm not, please join the debate and give it your full consideration before dismissing one argument as you are now.

 

 

 

 

No point mucker.

It seems I have been brainwashed by the Establishment, and as a result I am far too ignorant to make any valid point since if I was using the correct information sources I would not possibly consider anything less than full independence as acceptable. Ergo all my input is valueless.

Right, tongue out of cheek time. This is actually quite a serious point. A significant proportion of our population and eligible electorate have become disengaged from politics, and the politicos wring their hands and ask "why?".

Answer is reasonably simple - firstly there is the Punch and Judy nature of the adversarial system. Then we are bombarded by statistics that actually require expert knowledge to interpret, which most people don't have so they rely on the interpretation they get from their chosen media sources. Then they get told that the media they have chosen is twisting it to suit their own ends and political leanings, and we are back to the beginning. And at the end we find that one bunch of self-serving, lying, thieving bar-stewards are no better than the last lot, and will probably be replaced by the same. Is this the end result of a mature democracy? We don't have leaders really - we have managers. And what is politics really meant to do? In the end it is there to protect the wealthy and the powerful.

I have become disengaged from it over time because I simply do not believe any of them and I suspect their motives. But I don't have a bad life. I do what is expected - I work, I have bred and despite some worries I am not scratching a miserable existence like many of my fellow humans are forced to do just to survive - many closer to home than we like think. I am in fact, comfortable in my skin. And at the end of the day, if we as a people decide to go independent then I will be sad for what I believe we will lose, and may be reticent about the future, but I probably won't move house or anything drastic like that and I truly doubt it will have any significant effect on me personally.

So there is nothing more for me to contribute. I won't be persuaded and to be honest, I am not that bothered about persuading anyone else to match my view. I have told you all why I will vote as I will. It will not matter one jot to me that there are others who disagree, and I am not aiming to make folk see it my way. They will look into it as much as they want to, they will make up their minds and they will vote.

All I ask for is a good turn out. This is an important issue and we need to ensure that people use their democratic right to vote, regardless of which way they do so. It has to be seen to be representative. I will not encourage the youngsters and adult staff in my charge to vote one way or the other, but I will encourage them to attend the polling station. I make a very clear distinction between right to vote and actually having something to vote for.

I will always exercise my right but I am getting more and more disillusioned and there is good chance that the next time I do I will add a box and tick it - "none of the above".

Edited by FoolPhysio
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PPI - Payment protection insurance

PFI - Private finance initiative

PPP - Public private partnership

I, for one, stand corrected. I was sure I remembered, when the new Falkirk High School project was given the go ahead, it was known as Private Public Initiative.

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http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/bf19ad60-8681-11e2-b907-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2Nd4gt7nl

 

"The Institute for Fiscal Studies suggests that there exists “a more than 50:50 chance that (on a like-for-like basis) borrowing this year will be higher than it was in 2011-12."

 

Green Budget

 

Westminster borrowing is increasing despite austerity but Government will not change approach to the economy.

 

Yeah, it's boring but it affects each and every one of us whether we care or not. I do and I would suggest when you're out on the town, at the match, at work, at home or even talking to strangers start to share your thought on the Independence referendum, discuss each side of the argument and help us all make an informed choice next year. The more informed we are the better the choice will be. I will be happy either way as long as the electorate has been told the truth.

Edited by PullMyFinger
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PPI - Payment protection insurance

PFI - Private finance initiative

PPP - Public private partnership

I, for one, stand corrected. I was sure I remembered, when the new Falkirk High School project was given the go ahead, it was known as Private Public Initiative.

 

I get mucking fuddled myself too sometimes.

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/guffwatch/

 

We have to go out this afternoon so we’ll make this quick. Blah blah too poor blah blah no jobs blah blah individual smear blah blah fascist state blah blah invaded by Belgium or something blah blah. Frankly we wouldn’t even bother clicking the links if we were you. If you miss them today, the same stories – or very slight variations on them – will be back in the Scottish media tomorrow, and the day after that, and the day after that, and the day after that, and all the days after that all the way to autumn 2014.

 

This is another day in the life of YesScotland.

 

There was a time when journalism was a calling, a noble profession, reporting events as they happened. What we have now is editorial opinion designed to stop you thinking for yourself. The BBC even admitted they have no interest in reporting a balanced view until the run in to the vote next year. We pay them to tell us what to think?

 

I'm off to work, back in a few days. No doubt someone will give me something to think about, at least I hope so.

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..........And what is politics really meant to do? In the end it is there to protect the wealthy and the powerful..........

Excellent post, I agree with virtually 100% of it. I don't think anybody's suggesting you're brainwashed - you made some pretty powerful assertions early on (and a fair bit of dismissive rhetoric) and there's no point in taking it personally if people challenge them. I don't think the Nats have a monopoly on aggression or sanctimony for a start.

Like you I'm pretty fixed in where I stand, but one or two sensible lines from Yngwie are more likely to make me stop and think than a dozen rants from people like ol' Central Belter ;-)

Back to your post and the passage quoted above pretty much nails it. Surprising then if you cannot see the irony in it. The US military and the Sir Humphreys in Westminster (aka 'the wealthy and the powerful') hold all the aces. The Nationalist movement in Scotland has not a hope in hell against that. Scotland is an outpost of Europe and as such has massive strategic importance so yes, every scrap of propaganda possible will be thrown at the nationalist 'problem'. The discovery of the oil is just a lucky coincidence, another stick to beat us with as we are deemed greedy, mean and selfish.

As for the BBC, I always had my doubts, but what I have read today thanks to PMF has sickened me.

Edited by TheMantis
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