The Big Scottish Independence Debate

[Charles Bannerman]

I am now of the view that there is a strong case for a yes vote.

[IBM]

I sincerely hope so Charles, you can still change your mind and vote YES.  You can even keep it a secret

[dougiedanger]

I am now of the view that there is a strong case for a yes vote.

   

[Scarlet Pimple]

Why so many of our members who are not posting opinions in here?

 

Charlie Bannerman has finally seen the light.  Good for you. That's the spirit. Charles.

 

The queen claims to be neutral but when David Beckham came out of the No's closet to give the world the benefit of his sweeping pundit's opinion as a celebrity of great magnitude , even the  Queen dropped her guard and reserve and , sniffing haughtily, opined that it was her considered opinion that we dumb Scots should "consider carefully what we should do". Eh, what?

Do you actually presume to think, Madame, that we are not thinking about this carefully and that there never has there been such a gathering of voters, of which 97% have been registered, who ARE are considering all this in great depth. In fact so much that now the whole world is waiting with bated breath to see what the outcome will be.  

David Cameron is a distant relative of the Queen according to Wikipedia so go figure.

 

After the dust settles, and IF it is a "no" vote, then a few crumbs will be swept off the Westminster table for Scotland followed in due course by  the SAME OLD, SAME OLD.    A leopard does not change its spots and a rose by any other name still smells the same.

 

Did you also know that David Cameron is a member of the fanciest gentleman's club in London but  we should  acknowledge that at least he did oppose NOT having women members admitted.

[Sneckboy]

An interesting 'rough guide' released by the Press Association indicating predicted declaration times. 

Significantly, the estimated final 3 areas are major population centres (a quarter of all the votes) - so even if one side has a decent sized lead, it really can't be 'called' until the last result's declared. That's if this is accurate!

I've got to say, I'm surprised to see the Western Isles so 'early' in the list. And I'm puzzled why Aberdeen City should take so long? It's got a broadly similar population as Highland region but the geographical logistics of transporting ballot boxes in the vast Highland area would suggest it would take longer than Aberdeen.

We'll see what transpires!

 

Comhairle nan Eilean Siar (Western Isles) 02:00

North Lanarkshire 02:00

Inverclyde 02:00

Orkney 02:00

East Lothian 02:00

Perth & Kinross 02:00

Moray 02:00

Clackmannanshire 02:30

West Dunbartonshire 03:00

Dumfries & Galloway 03:00

Angus 03:00

South Lanarkshire 03:00

East Renfrewshire 03:00

Dundee 03:00

Falkirk 03:00

Renfrewshire 03:00

East Ayrshire 03:00

Aberdeenshire 03:00

Stirling 03:00

Midlothian 03:30

Argyll & Bute 03:30

West Lothian 03:30

South Ayrshire 03:30

Shetland 03:30

East Dunbartonshire 03:30

Fife 04:00

Highland 04:00

North Ayrshire 04:30

Scottish Borders 05:00

Edinburgh 05:00

Glasgow 05:00

Aberdeen 06:00

Edited September 16, 2014 by Sneckboy

[Kingsmills]

Why so many of our members who are not posting opinions in here?

 

Charlie Bannerman has finally seen the light.  Good for you. That's the spirit. Charles.

 

 

It would appear that irony does not travel well....

[+bughtmaster]

Charles is to be applauded for declaring his change of mind.

It takes courage, after so blatantly stating his strong held opinions regarding the Union to admit this change on this forum.

 

Rumour has it that Oddquine will not be changing her stance, just throwing a party !

[+Wanderer]

I'm surprised to see the Western Isles so 'early' in the list. And I'm puzzled why Aberdeen City should take so long? It's got a broadly similar population as Highland region but the geographical logistics of transporting ballot boxes in the vast Highland area would suggest it would take longer than Aberdeen.

We'll see what transpires!

 

 

 

Puzzle-ye-not!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/scottish-independence-blog/2014/sep/15/scottish-independence-when-will-the-referendum-result-be-announced

[Sneckboy]

Cheers, Wanderer - that's a useful link.

It seems that, in order to get the results as quickly as possibly, in this unique vote, the usually 'slower' declaring areas of the Western Isles and Argyll & Bute are employing helicopters and boats to transport the ballot boxes to their respective counting centres. (weather permitting)

 

I can see now, with the boxes in delivered and in situ - with relatively small electorates, they could be early-ish in declaring.

Indeed, the actual 'counting' process will be much easier than a regular election count, where there could be a foot-long paper to look-at with perhaps 12 candidates.

 

One other interesting point: there won't be any lengthy re-counts, due to each Council area's individual results not being significant, in isolation.

I can't wait until Thursday night/Friday morning!

[KingBeastie]

A lot of Yes supporters seem to be fueled by a very strong anger and hatred.

 

I can't agree with that at all.  Living in Glasgow the vocal no support that I see are the aggressive orange type that I'm sure you can imagine. (it's almost a stereotype)

The Yes campaigners are all happy and smiley, which seems to be almost a tactic that has been used to sway people.

 

I also read about two journalists who made complaints of having received threats.  The threats were received due to their open Yes intentions.

 

Your experiences will likely be very different to mine.  However I cannot agree with your statement.

[KingBeastie]

Down here we've had Yes shops being burnt down.  A female Yes campaigner kicked in the stomach by a 55 years old Scottish BNP member.  A Yes supporter assaulted outside a concert.

The BBC has been very, very poor in reporting any of these.

 

https://twitter.com/GAPonsonby/status/511605538300641281

[Sneckboy]

Isolated incidents like those you mention shouldn't be taking up news space - this vote is of international significance. Both sides, as in all-walks-of-life, have their marginal nut-job minority. But as the stakes get higher and Thursday gets closer, there will inevitably be some unsavoury incidents.

With thousands of polling stations across Scotland, there will, absolutely, be some 'scuffles' on the day.

No political capital to be gained from these 'incidents'.

Desperate, much?

[Ayeseetee]

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-betfair-pay-out-on-no-vote-1-3543402

A bit presumptuous from bet fair bunch of c#*?'s

[Kingsmills]

Sadly, I fear that Betfair are safe enough. Although, if they are that confident, why don't they offer 50 to 1 or more against a Yes vote ?

Edited September 16, 2014 by Kingsmills

[dougiedanger]

Sadly, I fear that Betfair are safe enough. Although, if they are that confident, why don't they offer 50 to 1 or more against a Yes vote ?

Don't understand betting but apparently it's some publicity stunt where they don't pay out much, and by pure chance, the owner of the company is a big tory supporter.

It is desperation from the unionists and tories.

[Scarlet Pimple]

 What time do the polls close on Thursday?

Big News:- Canada has offered assistance by promising to send 6 Sea Otter float planes to the following hot spots in the campaign: Orkney, Western Isles, Oil rigs, Salmond's Hatchery, etc.

Meantime, back in the Fraser River, British Columbia, the first few salmon of the estimated 30,000,000 sockeye salmon (thirty million)run this year have been seen hot-footing it up to Hell's Gate Canyon where the fish ladders have been renovated for the arrival of the bounteous horde.
Note: Salmon spawn in the shallow pools of their own birth and then immediately die from exhaustion of the tremendous efforts they have produced running from the ocean against the river's currents and obstacles. Their progeny then, in turn, leave and go out into the Pacific Ocean for 4-5 years. Then return as big guys to spawn again and complete their life cycle. On the way they have to run a gauntlet of countless dangers, such as grizzly bears who have mastered the art of catching them as they jump up waterfalls or rocky outcrops
When I arrived in Canada I first went to live in Steveston, a small village on the West Coast on the outskirts of Vancouver,B.C. (Not to be confused with Vancouver, Washington State, U.S.A., just south of us) which at one time in its history boasted the largest Salmon Fish Processing Plant in the British Empire.  
 

[robbylad]

I am now of the view that there is a strong case for a yes vote.

Are you on the wind up sir?? You know how contrary we Scots can be and because you shift position there's a good chance the yes side will too. Lol

[+DoofersDad]

He is referring to a yes vote - not 2.1 million of them.

[Oddquine]

Isolated incidents like those you mention shouldn't be taking up news space - this vote is of international significance. Both sides, as in all-walks-of-life, have their marginal nut-job minority. But as the stakes get higher and Thursday gets closer, there will inevitably be some unsavoury incidents.

With thousands of polling stations across Scotland, there will, absolutely, be some 'scuffles' on the day.

No political capital to be gained from these 'incidents'.

Desperate, much?

 

But egging Jim Murphy should be reported in the MSM for three days, and then again when he found his backbone and decided to continue haranguing from the soapbox............and a sticker on Ian Murray's rooms window gave us three days of howls about vandalism?

 

A level playing field would have been good, No shame in losing a fair fight...a lot of shame in cheating and "being economical with the truth"  as Westminster/the NO campaign has been doing..and it is going to take a long time to get over the feeling of being shafted by the establishment for the sake of their own jobs/bank balances.

[IBM]

You work for years away from home all week often having to work into the early hours  and then have to additional work at weekends, a hard job.  But on the plus side you are paid 3 times the national average wage plus expenses.  You can stay in 5 star hotels or by a flat in London get a subsidized mortgage and then sell it at a huge profit when you retire.  You can get free passes for your family to visit, long holidays, a subsidized bar at work  and a pension when you retire that is far more than the majority get paid    If you do well at your job when you retire you may get invited to join the retirement club which has all the same perks of the job you had and you can do voluntary work which will pay you £300 every day you turn up  if you find it to much or had a late night in the subsidized bar just have a sleep and you will still get your money   That is the Westminster Gravy Train which you the tax payer are paying £50 million a year for and that's just the Scottish MP's.    If you are happy with this just vote No on Thursday but YOU have one chance to change this, simply vote YES                                                                                                          

[+DoofersDad]

 

 

A level playing field would have been good, No shame in losing a fair fight...a lot of shame in cheating and "being economical with the truth"  as Westminster/the NO campaign has been doing..and it is going to take a long time to get over the feeling of being shafted by the establishment for the sake of their own jobs/bank balances.

 

 

There are two sides to every story.  From a "No" perspective I am appalled at the level of dishonesty and misinterpretation of information from the YES campaign and am appalled by what is proposed should there be a "Yes" result.  Part of the shame of this referendum is that the Scottish Government cannot tell us what the currency situation will be in an Independent Scotland.  Part of the shame of this referendum is that the Scottish Government has so little faith in its own economic security that it lacks the pride to adopt it's own currency as other independent nations have done.

 

If there is a YES vote on Thursday, this is what will happen. 

1)  The First Minister of Scotland will formally request a currency union with the UK Government.  The reason he will do this is because he expects the country he has just walked away from will bail him out when Scotland goes bankrupt trying to deliver on the promises he made in bribing the electorate to vote for independence.  This, remember, is the same First Minister who a few years ago described the Pound as a millstone round Scotland's neck.  He now apparently considers it a life belt.

2)  The UK Government will feel that it is not appropriate that taxpayers in the rest of the UK bail out the Scots for their irresponsibility, particularly so as other British voters had no say whatsoever in whether or not the Union should be broken up.  The UK Government will formally refuse the request.

3)  The Scottish Government will then use the pound in any case.  Such is their lack of confidence in their own economy to support a Scottish Currency, the Scottish Government will tie themselves to a currency they will have no influence over whatsoever and will be dependent on aspects of financial policy dictated by a country they were desperate to escape from.  So much for having control of your own destiny.

4)  In addition, the First Minister will announce that given a currency union is not going to be allowed, Scotland will not pay its share of the UK national debt.

5)  Having announced that just about the first thing Scotland will do as an independent nation is to renege on a major debt, the Scottish Government will then attempt to borrow several billions of pounds in order to pay for all the goodies they have bribed a nation with. 

 

I don't know about you, but this does not sound like a great plan to me.

 

Of course those who believe in the case for Independence and who have put a lot of effort into promoting the case will be very disappointed if the result is "NO", but whilst that disappointment should be respected by the NO camp, forgive me if we don't have too much sympathy for your situation.  After a long history of union where the support for independence has been so low, to come so close to Independence in such a short space of time is quite remarkable.  And if the support for independence remains after a defeat on Thursday, your opportunity will come again.

 

Things will be very different for the NO camp if there is a YES vote.  No second chances for us.  There are hundreds of Thousands of Scottish voters who were born and raised in other parts of the UK.  Folk like me, born in England but proud to be British and who have moved to another part of Britain.  I haven't emigrated, I have simply moved to another part of the sovereign state of the UK and spent all my working life in Scotland.  No doubt I would have dual nationality but I would not be living in Britain (or whatever rUK) will call itself.  Despite never having emigrated, the country of my birth will be a foreign country.  Exactly the same fate will hit Scots living in other parts of the UK - at least I had a vote!

 

I can live with that but the people I feel for are those people born and bred in Scotland, fiercely proud of their Scottish heritage but who also understand the richness and benefit that partnership in a union gives and who consider themselves British first and Scottish second.  I was speaking to an elderly neighbour yesterday who was really quite distressed.  He was saying he was British and if Scotland was no longer a part of Britain he would be a foreigner in his own country.  He told me he would go to his grave an exile in his own country. 

 

Whether the Union is broken on Thursday remains to be seen but one thing that is certain is that this referendum has divided a nation. 

[Scarlet Pimple]

Is it true that the promised generosity from Monsieur Eddy Cameron to "Scotland"" is indeed a loosening of the purse strings  to allow an avalanche of cash to be sent directly to the bank accounts of the current opposition Yesser chiefs? He now denies that he thought the word "yesser" actually meant...."Yes Sir, Yes-sir, thirty three bags full Sir and is it time to lick your boots,Sir?""

 

The person who divulged this incredible, convoluted devolution-misinterpretation-package is thought to be in the new Craig Dunain Hospital in far flung Scottish territory. The doctors there, in a newly-printed press release in the locally annexed Press and Fess Journal, claim that their affiliate, the English-based Lance-T, are however keeping their cards close to their vests on the grounds that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush and they have to keep some info back for a rainy day ...

 

Meantime, back at the ranch, our Pimpernell associates have unearthed some more incredible factoids recently published by Facebook with a view to boosting their political highly informed pundits' ratings:   In response all we can say is .."WOW"".

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29202729     

[Scarlet Pimple]

Frankly speaking, my knees are now at the trembling stage. Why? Because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity for the Scottish Nation. ONLY ONCE!

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29217170

This article examines the world's reaction or should I say hugely growing reaction--to this vital vote.It's absolutely amazing!
And the information given in the article consumed my interest and what struck me as being so powerful was how small the world has become and how much we all depend on each other..and, as human beings, how
similar are our needs.

[+DoofersDad]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29217170

This article examines the world's reaction or should I say hugely growing reaction--to this vital vote.It's absolutely amazing!

And the information given in the article consumed my interest and what struck me as being so powerful was how small the world has become and how much we all depend on each other..and, as human beings, how

similar are our needs.

 

I agree with this part of what you say but would argue that this surely highlights the need for ever closer cooperation and strengthening of unions rather than further fragmenting this world into more and more smaller, competing nations.  We need to put aside our narrow perceptions of identity and have the courage to share and embrace a wider identity as world citizens moving forward in cooperation.

[Kingsmills]

Oddly, I agree with that and one reason I will be voting Yes is for closer cooperation and strengh

 

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-29217170

This article examines the world's reaction or should I say hugely growing reaction--to this vital vote.It's absolutely amazing!
And the information given in the article consumed my interest and what struck me as being so powerful was how small the world has become and how much we all depend on each other..and, as human beings, how
similar are our needs.

 

I agree with this part of what you say but would argue that this surely highlights the need for ever closer cooperation and strengthening of unions rather than further fragmenting this world into more and more smaller, competing nations.  We need to put aside our narrow perceptions of identity and have the courage to share and embrace a wider identity as world citizens moving forward in cooperation.

 

 

I agree entirely and one of my main reasons for voting Yes is to promote ever closer cooperation with other nations and strenghthening of unions most particularly the European Union.

 

Scotland will be an outward looking internationalist country as opposed to the increasingly insular attitude of those wielding power in the UK where the rise of the lunatics of UKIP has panicked the establishment into a referendum on leaving the EU at a time when no other sensible pragmatic nation wants to leave and many are knocking on the door to get in.

 

Absolutely, we need to put aside our narrow perceptions of identity and have the courage to share and embrace a wider identity as world citizens moving forward in cooperation.

 

For me, it is self evident that a government in Edinburgh would be more willing and able to do just that than one based in London dancing to the tune of Nigel Farage and pandering to the views of readers of the Daily Mail and Telegraph..